What is New Testament Holiness?

[Episkopos]

You remind me of the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14. You glory in self rather than the cross.

In Philippians 3:8-9, we read - Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

All you do is talk about walking in power over sin as if you live a sinless, perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) then you look down your nose at the rest of us who understand otherwise. (1 John 1:8-10)

It's actually you who is diametrically opposed to Paul and his gospel. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, which you obviously don't. Instead, you trust in SELF.

The apostle Paul warned us about people like you in Acts 20:28-31. Your "holier than thou" gospel is no gospel at all.

You are conflating religious dogmatic ideology with faith. You flatter yourself that you know what faith is.

 

[mailmandan]

These are foolish words. The righteous are doers of the word not hearers only. Jesus says to DO what He says....build on the rock. Your twisting of the words of God makes this a lie. You prefer..the righteous don't DO the word...they just hear it...that's enough....any effort to obey is wrong. So you are an enemy of righteousness AND the cross.

Learn reading skills...the rock that Jesus refers to is "DOING"..."OBEYING" His words. Read again.

Do you deny.... If you love Me obey My commandments. (You continue to misrepresent Jesus..is this a hobby for you?).

I never said the righteous are hearers only and not doers of the word. I clearly stated - Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. Slandering Christians seems to be a hobby for you. I do not deny "if you love Me you will "keep" (Greek word - "tereo") guard, observe, watch over My commandments. I find it so IRONIC that you call me an enemy of righteousness and the cross. Your true colors have been painfully obvious to me for years.

 

[mailmandan]

You are conflating religious dogmatic ideology with faith. You flatter yourself that you know what faith is.

I know exactly what faith is. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Don't flatter yourself with your "holier than thou" religious delusion.

 

[Episkopos]

I know exactly what faith is. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Don't flatter yourself with your "holier than thou" religious deception.

Knowing how to spell "faith" and having a concordance helps dogmatic religious types. But that doesn't mean there is even an ounce of comprehension. Faith moves mountains. Faith moves God. An experience of that will cause your religious ideology to go to the cross with all your religious pretensions.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sure...ok

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


24 Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I'm giving this a like because they are excellent scriptures with an excellent point!...and it badly needs to be taught. Jesus is talking about one's personal walk as opposed to one's "ministry" in his name. You can minister and have all manner of spiritual gifts and go around doing miracles (and this brings up the question of motives too) but if your personal life is unholy, don't expect to receive a warm welcome into the kingdom at the end of the day. This is consistent with where the apostle wrote about being careful that after preaching to others one doesn't become disqualified themselves.

But my oh my if it is hard even for believers who have the Holy Spirit, how can anyone expect that unbelievers without the Spirit could be 'qualified' for the kingdom and do/obey His sayings? And scripture says that God at one time was overlooking sin so to speak, I believe in the sense that He wasn't yet dealing with it, that He hadn't yet brought the solution for it, but now that He has brought the solution (His Son!) He commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[mailmandan]

Knowing how to spell "faith" and having a concordance helps dogmatic religious types. But that doesn't mean there is even an ounce of comprehension. Faith moves mountains. Faith moves God. An experience of that will cause your religious ideology to go to the cross with all your religious pretensions.

Your reading comprehension culminates in eisegesis. I quoted Hebrews 11:1 (which is scripture) to explain what faith "is" and not merely a concordance. In all of my years on various Christian forum sites I have never met anyone as condescending and puffed up as you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Knowing how to spell "faith" and having a concordance helps dogmatic religious types. But that doesn't mean there is even an ounce of comprehension. Faith moves mountains. Faith moves God. An experience of that will cause your religious ideology to go to the cross with all your religious pretensions.

You have to experience it to understand it, but the new birth and the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught is not religious ideology and pretension. It's a miraculous sea-change that occurs. There is still very much a need for instruction in the word and growth after that though.

What I see in the sciptures is that God judges His children according to our level of maturity and growth and where we should be at (eg, "by now you ought to be teachers".) He doesn't expect the same from a "two year old" that He would from a "grown-up". Of Mary Magdalene He commended her actions in anointing him and said "she hath done what she could." He isn't judging unrighteously or unfairly and ungraciously.

 

[Episkopos]

I'm giving this a like because they excellent scriptures!...and it badly needs to be taught. Jesus is talking about one's personal walk as opposed to one's "ministry" in his name. You can minister and have all manner of spiritual gifts and go around doing miracles (and this brings up the question of motives too) but if your personal life is unholy, don't expect to receive a warm welcome into the kingdom at the end of the day. This is consistent with where the apostle wrote about being careful that after preaching to others one doesn't become disqualified themselves.

We have to ask ourselves who is being served? When we walk in intimacy with God, it this for temporal benefit.

Most ministries are smoke and mirrors...from a dogmatic religious posturing. That's why there are SO MANY fake believers.

But we are to follow Christ not men.

So then the miracles should lead us to see the LIFE behind them. What is more impressive to carnal eyes? Outward miracles. But the inward miracle of life in resurrection life remains the best kept secret in the world. You can tell who are the real disciples of Christ based on whether they think faith means that they can deny the perfection of a walk in resurrection life...or affirm it. Most here will deny Christ and His power. Without understanding the POWER of God us-ward who believe...there is NO faith...just religious posturings and dead beliefs. Faith is about LIFE...or it is dead. The gospel of the Promised Land was not tolerable to the Israelites either.

But my oh my if it is hard even for believers who have the Holy Spirit, how can anyone expect that unbelievers without the Spirit could be 'qualified' for the kingdom and do/obey His sayings?

You are conflating survival salvation with glory. You need instruction.

Christ in you is the hope of GLORY...not just salvation. Do you get a medal of honour for joining the army? no...the medal must be earned through selfless sacrifice. Very few will move beyond the initial sample of grace. Most will bury their talent. So we will fail for the most part exactly like the Israelites in the wilderness. The same unbelief affects us as them. And even if you warn people everyday...they will not listen but rather spew more dogmatic ideology. (thinking they are justified for it rather than inviting condemnation) A lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding indeed!

And scripture says that God at one time was overlooking sin so to speak, I believe in the sense that He wasn't yet dealing with it, that He hadn't yet brought the solution for it, but now that He has brought the solution (His Son!) He commands all men everywhere to repent.

Repentance into righteousness for sinners. And the righteous repentance into holiness (He doesn't call the righteous to repent into righteousness. They are not "sick" that way). That is the ways of God consistent throughout the bible. But a religious nut will have none of it...preferring a misreading of one verse to any other verse that shows its proper balance.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen! 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Epi thinks he is preaching the cross . He aint . He is only preaching aspects about it .
He and scores of others are trying to plant the idea one does not need to BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS .
IN truth what they are doing is simply preaching a religion that all religoins can embrace and partake as one in it .
ITs nothing more than any other religoin . IF focuses on Mans own ability to save himself and to fullfilll righteousness .
THEY SEEK IT NOT BY FAITH . EPI is an enemy of FAITH . He preaches aspects of righteousness , of the cross
But not by FAITH . The devil has come in the last hour to gather all as one under a lie which will not save
but will condemn . As for me , I IS A GONNA PREACH JESUS CHRIST and HE ALONE as the ONLY NAME
the ONLY MEANS whereby one can be saved , can be justified , can be made the rigthousness of God .
THEY ALL SEEK THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD , BUT NOT BY FAITH . THIS DIDNT BODE well for the unbelieving jews either .
FAITH . BELIEVE . Without that , ITS ALL VAIN and the end willl surely be the second death of the dead .

 

[amigo de christo]

We have to ask ourselves who is being served? When we walk in intimacy with God, it this for temporal benefit.

Most ministries are smoke and mirrors...from a dogmatic religious posturing. That's why there are SO MANY fake believers.

But we are to follow Christ not men.

So then the miracles should lead us to see the LIFE behind them. What is more impressive to carnal eyes? Outward miracles. But the inward miracle of life in resurrection life remains the best kept secret in the world. You can tell who are the real disciples of Christ based on whether they think faith means that they can deny the perfection of a walk in resurrection life...or affirm it. Most here will deny Christ and His power. Without understanding the POWER of God us-ward who believe...there is NO faith...just religious posturings and dead beliefs. Faith is about LIFE...or it is dead. The gospel of the Promised Land was not tolerable to the Israelites either.


You are conflating survival salvation with glory. You need instruction.

Christ in you is the hope of GLORY...not just salvation. Do you get a medal of honour for joining the army? no...the medal must be earned through selfless sacrifice. Very few will move beyond the initial sample of grace. Most will bury their talent. So we will fail for the most part exactly like the Israelites in the wilderness. The same unbelief affects us as them. And even if you warn people everyday...they will not listen but rather spew more dogmatic ideology. (thinking they are justified for it rather than inviting condemnation) A lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding indeed!

Repentance into righteousness for sinners. And the righteous repentance into holiness (He doesn't call the righteous to repent into righteousness. They are not "sick" that way). That is the ways of God consistent throughout the bible. But a religious nut will have none of it...preferring a misreading of one verse to any other verse that shows its proper balance.

You say we ought to follow Christ and not men . VERY TRUE . YET YOU yourself DONT follow CHRIST
. You follow men and carnal reasonings of men . TO FOLLOW one must FIRST BELIEVE . and you dont .
You dont . so go ahead and type all the fancy words you want . But its all in vain epi .
THE HORSE . Remember the HORSE PULLS US and not we the HORSE pardner .
YOU doing all by your own efforts and believing a lie from hades . BELIEVING folks dont need to BELEIVE IN JESUS
You bought a lie epi . and the cost of it will be your soul . LEST YE REPENT OF IT . my advice , HURRY and DO SO .

 

[amigo de christo]

You have to experience it to understand it, but the new birth and the gospel that Jesus and the apostles taught is not religious ideology and pretension. It's a miraculous sea-change that occurs. There is still very much a need for instruction in the word and growth after that though.

What I see in the sciptures is that God judges His children according to our level of maturity and growth and where we should be at (eg, "by now you ought to be teachers".) He doesn't expect the same from a "two year old" that He would from a "grown-up". Of Mary Magdalene He commended her actions in anointing him and said "she hath done what she could." He isn't judging unrighteously or unfairly and ungraciously.

The man attacks the JESUS of the BIBLE . Makes claims to some of his teachings and some of the teachings of the apostles
to try and teach a CHRISTLESS CROSS . Its all in vain for dear ol epi .
The goal . what is their goal . DEEP Down examine it . TO GET US to BELIEVE that all religoins and of of man
has NO NEED TO EVEN BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS . That we have it in us OURSELVES to do what needs be done .
THAT IS IT IN AN EGGSHELL . HE may as well say , GET THE HECK OUT OF MY WAY JESUS , I DONT NEED YOU
I GOT THIS MYSELF . Cause its what he teaches .

 

[amigo de christo]

I never said the righteous are hearers only and not doers of the word. I clearly stated - Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. Slandering Christians seems to be a hobby for you. I do not deny "if you love Me you will "keep" (Greek word - "tereo") guard, observe, watch over My commandments. I find it so IRONIC that you call me an enemy of righteousness and the cross. Your true colors have been painfully obvious to me for years.

Please feel free to tell me this too . IF I EVER see you head in the direction of EPI , Prepare for a severe harsh rebuking .
DO the same for me my friend . NEVER GO in the direction they are all headed into .
EPI says in his heart , GET OUT MY WAY JESUS , I DONT NEED YOU . THEY DONT NEED TO BELIEVE IN YOU
WE CAN DO THIS OURSELVES . Never once heed that man or this inclusive junk many others are now buying into

 

[Episkopos]

The man attacks the JESUS of the BIBLE . Makes claims to some of his teachings and some of the teachings of the apostles
to try and teach a CHRISTLESS CROSS . Its all in vain for dear ol epi .
The goal . what is their goal . DEEP Down examine it . TO GET US to BELIEVE that all religoins and of of man
has NO NEED TO EVEN BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS . That we have it in us OURSELVES to do what needs be done .
THAT IS IT IN AN EGGSHELL . HE may as well say , GET THE HECK OUT OF MY WAY JESUS , I DONT NEED YOU
I GOT THIS MYSELF . Cause its what he teaches .

The lies flow from you so easily. You mean the Jesus of the hypocrites. The real Jesus is reached through the experience of the cross. To be crucified with Him to be raised into life IN Him. Your superficial gospel is easy-peasy. Just take Him as YOUR Lamb that YOU sacrifice..then point to Him and claim that He saves you. All your own decision. An active imagination is not biblical faith, however. Jesus will just say...who is this? Instead of that inevitable truth....why not actually surrender to Christ? Don't just point to Him...go to Him...get to know Him.

 

[Episkopos]

You say we ought to follow Christ and not men . VERY TRUE . YET YOU yourself DONT follow CHRIST
. You follow men and carnal reasonings of men . TO FOLLOW one must FIRST BELIEVE . and you dont .
You dont . so go ahead and type all the fancy words you want . But its all in vain epi .
THE HORSE . Remember the HORSE PULLS US and not we the HORSE pardner .
YOU doing all by your own efforts and believing a lie from hades . BELIEVING folks dont need to BELEIVE IN JESUS
You bought a lie epi . and the cost of it will be your soul . LEST YE REPENT OF IT . my advice , HURRY and DO SO .

You trust in what Jesus did on the cross for ALL men...and you claim it for yourself by a human religious belief that has no connection to God whatsoever. No wonder Jesus says ...I don't know you ....to all the religious hucksters out there.

Better to be honest and humble than do what you do. Will you listen?....no way.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Brain damage and failing kidneys. Taking him off life support today, as he would have wanted. But I am at peace with it, in so many ways I realized it is God's perfect timing and a mercy. Thank you all so much for praying.

I am so sorry. No profession of believing in Jesus?
We all have the choice presented but it is our choice.
Again, I am sorry.

 

[Lizbeth]

We have to ask ourselves who is being served? When we walk in intimacy with God, it this for temporal benefit.

Most ministries are smoke and mirrors...from a dogmatic religious posturing. That's why there are SO MANY fake believers.

But we are to follow Christ not men.

So then the miracles should lead us to see the LIFE behind them. What is more impressive to carnal eyes? Outward miracles. But the inward miracle of life in resurrection life remains the best kept secret in the world. You can tell who are the real disciples of Christ based on whether they think faith means that they can deny the perfection of a walk in resurrection life...or affirm it. Most here will deny Christ and His power. Without understanding the POWER of God us-ward who believe...there is NO faith...just religious posturings and dead beliefs. Faith is about LIFE...or it is dead. The gospel of the Promised Land was not tolerable to the Israelites either.


You are conflating survival salvation with glory. You need instruction.

Christ in you is the hope of GLORY...not just salvation. Do you get a medal of honour for joining the army? no...the medal must be earned through selfless sacrifice. Very few will move beyond the initial sample of grace. Most will bury their talent. So we will fail for the most part exactly like the Israelites in the wilderness. The same unbelief affects us as them. And even if you warn people everyday...they will not listen but rather spew more dogmatic ideology. (thinking they are justified for it rather than inviting condemnation) A lack of knowledge, wisdom and understanding indeed!

Repentance into righteousness for sinners. And the righteous repentance into holiness (He doesn't call the righteous to repent into righteousness. They are not "sick" that way). That is the ways of God consistent throughout the bible. But a religious nut will have none of it...preferring a misreading of one verse to any other verse that shows its proper balance.

I have a lot on my plate right now and it's hard to concentrate. But I believe there is some truth here, but your foundation is all wrong as we have discussed in previous threads, and also we need to have things in right balance. We are saved by grace still, not works. We are called to be perfect/holy as our Father in heaven is perfect/holy....this is a call to be spiritual, not carnal, and to walk holy, in the Spirit. All believers may not reach that kind of "perfection" in their walk but it doesn't mean they aren't saved by grace. We all need to be sincere with God doing our best to follow whole heartedly, and counting the cost, and being honest with Him about where we fall short. Do you believe you have forfeited eternal life since by your account you are not walking in what you were at one time?

I'm seeing it like this, that we are in a battle for sure, and there are casualties like in any war, but on the other hand for those who are still in the fight, it is a battle that has already been won on our behalf. Scripture indicates rewards and loss of rewards, and it appears there are greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven - but if we don't reach absolute perfection in this life doesn't necessarily mean loss of eternal life. Everybody isn't going to be the "greatest" in the kingdom but it doesn't mean they won't be found there at all. Otherwise there wouldn't be greater and lesser. I hope this makes sense.

 

[Lizbeth]

I am so sorry. No profession of believing in Jesus?
We all have the choice presented but it is our choice.
Again, I am sorry.

Dad never regained consciousness after the surgery but I had opportunity to speak to him about Jesus some more while asleep in hopes of speaking to his spirit. Maybe a faint hope but one never knows. If I have forgiven him maybe God will too, at least that is my prayer. I leave my Dad in God's hands and have absolute confidence that He will judge righteously. I'm sad but not devastated, and am processing things slowly, as well as that there are so many practical arrangements and details to deal with that I don't feel up to at all. Thank you so much for yours and others' prayers and concern sister, I really appreciate it.

 

[MatthewG]

Dad never regained consciousness after the surgery but I had opportunity to speak to him about Jesus some more while asleep in hopes of speaking to his spirit. Maybe a faint hope but one never knows. If I have forgiven him maybe God will too, at least that is my prayer. I leave my Dad in God's hands and have absolute confidence that He will judge righteously. I'm sad but not devastated, and am processing things slowly, as well as that there are so many practical arrangements and details to deal with that I don't feel up to at all. Thank you so much for yours and others' prayers and concern sister, I really appreciate it.

Sad with you friend, prayers for continuing strong in faith, and that you go to the source of all life (Yeshua), to keep you stable, along with what other apostles have said, trust in God, he is good and is love.

All the best, in hope and love,
Matthew

 

[Lizbeth]

I am so sorry. No profession of believing in Jesus?
We all have the choice presented but it is our choice.
Again, I am sorry.

Just want to add that when I went into my Dad's room that last morning, his face seemed to me to have a little glow on and he looked more peaceful. I asked my sisters who were with me but they didn't notice anything different. I don't discount that the Lord may have wrought something in the inner man even while the outer man was not conscious. Maybe in his case even best to have outer man out of the way with no say in the matter. Scripture says that what we loose on earth is loosed in heaven (ie, forgive) and I just don't discount one bit that there are things I yet don't know or understand. The devil messes people around so much in this life. Also the fact there are signs the devil is mad about something.......to me that is always a good sign, heh. :) Anyway, in God's hands. Lord bless.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Dad never regained consciousness after the surgery but I had opportunity to speak to him about Jesus some more while asleep in hopes of speaking to his spirit. Maybe a faint hope but one never knows. If I have forgiven him maybe God will too, at least that is my prayer. I leave my Dad in God's hands and have absolute confidence that He will judge righteously. I'm sad but not devastated, and am processing things slowly, as well as that there are so many practical arrangements and details to deal with that I don't feel up to at all. Thank you so much for yours and others' prayers and concern sister, I really appreciate it.

My love, thoughts and prayers continue with you during this time.
Yes, all we can have is hope that the gracious God we serve reaches even when we cannot!