The Gospel of Grace:

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Really, I meant for you to know which Greek 'perfect' you are using, so you can rephrase it to fit the specific context in which you're using it for the same reason that you tend not to quote Bible verses. I hear what you're saying, though, about the need for revelation. Perhaps I'm assuming that those who don't see something, would like more revelation. But I am obliged to concur with many of your observations, so far. I'm trying to think of a good enough analogy.... it's as if some people have a life-size toy - car, for instance; it looks the part but it doesn't go anywhere. I'll be honest, I hadn't quite realised how intransigent this false gospel is, although I've heard it preached about many, many times.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

Really, I meant for you to know which Greek 'perfect' you are using, so you can rephrase it to fit the specific context in which you're using it for the same reason that you tend not to quote Bible verses. I hear what you're saying, though, about the need for revelation. Perhaps I'm assuming that those who don't see something, would like more revelation. But I am obliged to concur with many of your observations, so far. I'm trying to think of a good enough analogy.... it's as if some people have a life-size toy - car, for instance; it looks the part but it doesn't go anywhere. I'll be honest, I hadn't quite realised how intransigent this false gospel is, although I've heard it preached about many, many times.

The attitude of the natural is to attack and persecute the spiritual. Always has...always will!!!!

 

[seekandfind]

The attitude of the natural is to attack and persecute the spiritual. Always has...always will!!!!

I have to ask, by persecution, are you referring to the men of God throughout the bible who spoke what He told them so speak and wrote what HE told them to write for future generations, those who were imprisoned, beaten, and some put even put to death?

Are you referring to those who are in nations where Christianity is a crime, who are imprisoned and persecuted for owning and believing the bible?


Just wondering.

 

[Episkopos]

I have to ask, by persecution, are you referring to the men of God throughout the bible who spoke what He told them so speak and wrote what HE told them to write for future generations, those who were imprisoned, beaten, and some put even put to death?

Are you referring to those who are in nations where Christianity is a crime, who are imprisoned and persecuted for owning and believing the bible?


Just wondering.

Attitudes come from spirits....some you may see in your own household or else magnified on a national or global level. The trick is to identify the source before it becomes world news!!!! ;)

 

[seekandfind]

Attitudes come from spirits....some you may see in your own household or else magnified on a national or global level. The trick is to identify the source before it becomes world news!!!! ;)

The question was a valid question Episkopos.

It's ok if you don't want to answer it. By making accusations against a person (especially when the question is Biblical and sound,) perhaps you should examine what is in your own house?

 

[Episkopos]

The question was a valid question Episkopos.

It's ok if you don't want to answer it. By making accusations against a person (especially when the question is Biblical and sound,) perhaps you should examine what is in your own house?

I do!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi seekandfind,

I understood Episkopos to be referring to these verses:

Galatians 5:17a For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:...'

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;
but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 2:11b '... abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.

 

[seekandfind]

Hi seekandfind,

I understood Episkopos to be referring to these verses:

Galatians 5:17a For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh:...'

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;
but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1 Peter 2:11b '... abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.

Hi Dragonfly,

I responded to the remark about persecution. Persecution isn't telling a person that leaves on a tree are purple when they're green. Paul describes his own persecution that he endured while preaching the gospel, in great detail. Disagreeing is not persecution.

 

[Axehead]

AGAIN! you can NOT truly deal with the sin issue until you understand being made righteous!!! its almost like you guys have a SIN CONSCIENCE? and that is your focus? which by the way is your blindspot

Actually, we have a Christ-consciousness and a Christ-consciousness will cause one to realize that there is a cost to following Christ. Nothing is free. Have you read about the Rich Young Ruler. lately? Did Jesus just tell him to "accept" Him or was there a cost? If we were as honest as Jesus was in Evangelism we would see many turn away from Christ because of the precious idols in their hearts (like the Rich Young Ruler and riches). If the foundation is wrong, your walk will be in error. Easy-believism foments lawlessness. If you come into the church without repenting you will continue in an unrepentant life. In fact, you will continue your fleshly ways but with a religious spin (cloak) on it.

There is a walk of righteousness that we are called to. It is part of the whole package of salvation. Episkopos stated it and Jesus and the Apostles teach that not only is Salvation an EVENT but it is a PROCESS. It is a lifestyle! It is LIFE IN CHRIST! Even Samuel knew more than most people do today who profess to have the Holy Spirit.

(2 Sam 22:21-25 KJV) (21) The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me (22) For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. (23) For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them. (24) I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity. (25) Therefore the LORD hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

It is a common mistake in the church today to quote the following verse and assume that the Christian can do nothing that is righteous:

(Isa 64:6 KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Righteous acts by Christians are when they respond to the Spirit of God in Faith and obey Him.

You still trust in Christ and never in your own works. Righteous acts are a result of obeying the Lord to abide in Him. It is the fruit of being in Him, listening to Him and doing what He says.

What you are saying is that if you get saved but become offended sometime in your walk and refuse to abide in the Lord from that time on, it's nothing really to worry about. Even though you are practically fallen away as far as anyone can tell, you will still be saved because God never left you (even though you left Him). So, why not just enjoy the world, and try to escape as much uncomfortableness (persecution, tribulation) as possible? I mean, "such a deal", who can refuse.

I think Jesus was being a legalist telling the Rich Young Ruler to forsake his sin. He certainly wasn't preaching the Gospel of Grace at that time, was He? Maybe, He was having a bad day. If the Rich Young Ruler only knew that he only had to forsake his sin to get saved but after that everything was golden and he could cherish any idol in his heart after salvation and still be saved. Afterall, he was a now a "card-carrying", verifiable SON and even SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi seekandfind,

Disagreeing is not persecution.

Neither it is. :)


But even in agreement, there is a spiritual background going on the whole time, which may or may not agree with the Holy Spirit. There can be also, disagreement, without breaking the unity of the Spirit. To those to whom it is given (by which I mean a gift of the Spirit to discern), the background spiritual 'attitude' comes through despite the words which have been written.

Yes, Paul was persecuted in a very physical way, but there is a slow-burn low-grade persecution of Christians going on all the time, today, like a non-verbal, non-physical war of attrition. It may not be worse than Paul's day, but it is certainly not missing.

 

[seekandfind]

Hi seekandfind,



Neither it is. :)


But even in agreement, there is a spiritual background going on the whole time, which may or may not agree with the Holy Spirit. There can be also, disagreement, without breaking the unity of the Spirit. To those to whom it is given (by which I mean a gift of the Spirit to discern), the background spiritual 'attitude' comes through despite the words which have been written.

Yes, Paul was persecuted in a very physical way, but there is a slow-burn low-grade persecution of Christians going on all the time, today, like a non-verbal, non-physical war of attrition. It may not be worse than Paul's day, but it is certainly not missing.

You know Dragofly, I'll just agree with the word, and won't worry about who will accept me because of it. I'm more interested in God and I will not put my hand with witnesses who go against anything that HE said, AS IT IS WRITTEN.

If you and your buddies see that as being persecution, then that's you're issue. Discussing Christianity has nothing to do with leaving the written word out.

I'm sorry if there's a problem with that. I'll continue to believe God's word.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi seekandfind,

Discussing Christianity has nothing to do with leaving the written word out.

I think we may have a misunderstanding and it's my fault for not being clearer. When I used the phrase 'despite the words which have been written', I was referring to posts, not to scripture. It didn't even cross my mind that other interpretation was possible - but it should have!

I'm 100% with you on

I'm more interested in God and I will not put my hand with witnesses who go against anything that HE said, AS IT IS WRITTEN.

That's what this discussion is about, actually, and why it matters so very much that scripture is properly understood.


Have you been following the whole thread?

 

[Axehead]

Hi seekandfind,



Neither it is. :)


But even in agreement, there is a spiritual background going on the whole time, which may or may not agree with the Holy Spirit. There can be also, disagreement, without breaking the unity of the Spirit. To those to whom it is given (by which I mean a gift of the Spirit to discern), the background spiritual 'attitude' comes through despite the words which have been written.

Yes, Paul was persecuted in a very physical way, but there is a slow-burn low-grade persecution of Christians going on all the time, today, like a non-verbal, non-physical war of attrition. It may not be worse than Paul's day, but it is certainly not missing.

dragonfly,

People are certainly persecuted by "words" and I understood what you were saying.

Satan is referred to as the "Accuser of the Brethren". He doesn't always use Scripture in a perverted way (as only he is able to do), to persecute God's people with "words", many times he just condemns, belittles, and attacks in varied and sundry ways. I think everyone in this discussion who has been rescued from the kingdom of darkness has experienced Satan's "words" of persecution. Not only does he speak to our mind but he works through men.

Paul lays out in Galatians that those of the flesh persecute those of the Spirit, so this is not a new thought. Our role and responsibility is to make sure we are not "in the flesh".

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

Paul lays out in Galatians that those of the flesh persecute those of the Spirit, so this is not a new thought. Our role and responsibility is to make sure we are not "in the flesh".

His comment in Galatians is really about the flesh persecuting the Spirit in me. That's why I try to put the biblical case as clearly as I can, because if the other person/people in the discussion are having that battle going on in themselves, and they (appear to) have a lack of meaninful, sound BIble doctrine, then I like to put the fullest possible case for scripture, hoping the Spirit strengthens them to believe the fuller exposition.

I realise all have different ministries and are not going to express truth in identical terminology, but, we still suspect when we are communicating with others in the Spirit. I take your point about abstaining from 'the flesh'. Amen. May we make it easier for one another to walk in the Spirit, not harder.

 

[Episkopos]

Easy-believism foments lawlessness. If you come into the church without repenting you will continue in an unrepentant life. In fact, you will continue your fleshly ways but with a religious spin (cloak) on it.

Impured righteousness!!!! ;)

 

[haz]

Hi haz,

Before I read the rest of your post, I stopped when I got to this,



because it seems you are determined to attribute a thought to both myself and Ek that neither of us have. If you've read Axehead's threads on 'the law' and 'the sabbath' you will understand that he and we think the same, and it's not what you keep stating - about 'the law'.

I take you back to your question to Ek and others, 'Do you keep the law?' to which Ek replied 'no'. Since then, you have accused him relentlessly of preaching law-keeping, meaning 'the 10 commandments'. Now please hear me, and let this sink deep down into your ears (as Jesus used to say). We are not talking about 'keeping the law'. You are talking about 'keeping the law'. Again let me state: we are not talking about 'keeping the law'.

Because you keep bringing this point up, and because you compare 'law' with 'grace', apparently believing the law has no part to play in our righteousness - we just accept Christ's righteousness and go sinning on our way - because now no sin can be attributed to us because in Christ we are righteous - I am going to make one really big assumption, and that is, that when you quote Paul about us being under grace not 'the law', in a general way at least, you think you understand and espouse Paul's teaching on grace.

Therefore, I would like you read the following verse and answer these two questions:

1) where in it do you see him talking about 'keeping the law' - meaning 'the 10 commandments'?

2) if he is talking about 'keeping the law', which law is it?

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Many thanks. :)

Hi dragonfly,

I realize that you claim that we are not under works of the law BUT, we have very different understandings on scripture and therefore see works of the law differently.

You see your gospel being about fulfilling the righteousness of the law as opposed to keeping the law, as you described in Post #160, TOPIC: Faith without works.

But I, like others here, see your gospel (and that of EK) as works of the law.
Lets consider some things you said in the quotes below:

TOPIC: Faith without works
Post #118 'but no-where does Paul state that there is no law to be kept because of grace'.

This is the same as EK stating that we have no immunity to any laws. Thus you are including the law of sin and death to judge Christians by.

Consider your post #142
'Thus, being free to not sin, anytime you do sin, you make yourself again subject to the sanctions of the law.''
Here we see your doctrine judges a believer by the law of sin and death.
Although the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets people free from the law of sin and death, you’re gospel claims that it means we’re free not to transgress the law. And you claim that to transgress it makes you again subject to the sanctions of the law.

And what do you claim is the outcome should a Christian sin more than once?

'because if those brethren to not abstain from those sins, they will be bringing themselves back under God's wrath over to their unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean.'
'those calling themselves Christians who continue in sin, have neither seen Christ nor known Him'.

For further confirmation of your doctrine and why it is seen by others here as works of the law, consider your posts below.
TOPIC: Galatians 5 Post #106
'Sin' is very specific. It is defined by everything covered in the Mosaic Law and more which Jesus specified.

#132
'You see, if you read the 10 commandments and think about them, they are all to do with attitude, and how that plays out in physical reality'.

You’re doctrine judges righteousness by works of the law, but you deny it’s works of the law.
Under the law of sin and death if you transgressed the law (sin, 1John 3:4) the result was death.
Likewise under the gospel you and EK propose, if a Christian transgresses the law (sin) the result is death, as EK said in stating that the soul that sin dies.

We see on the posts here from EK and Axehead that those who reject their false gospel are those allegedly in darkness persecuting the likes of them. Unfortunately this gospel you and EK, Axehead are sharing here is mixing grace with works of the law. This is lukewarm and Rev 3:15,16 describes it's outcome.

When Jesus was asked how often we should forgive one another he replied 7x70. But you’re gospel suggests God is less forgiving than this once we become a Christian as 'it’s not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean.'

I hope this helps to explain why your gospel is recognized as mixing grace with works of the law.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi dragonfly,

I realize that you claim that we are not under works of the law BUT, we have very different understandings on scripture and therefore see works of the law differently.

You see your gospel being about fulfilling the righteousness of the law as opposed to keeping the law, as you described in Post #160, TOPIC: Faith without works.

But I, like others here, see your gospel (and that of EK) as works of the law.
Lets consider some things you said in the quotes below:

TOPIC: Faith without works
Post #118 'but no-where does Paul state that there is no law to be kept because of grace'.

This is the same as EK stating that we have no immunity to any laws. Thus you are including the law of sin and death to judge Christians by.

Consider your post #142
'Thus, being free to not sin, anytime you do sin, you make yourself again subject to the sanctions of the law.''
Here we see your doctrine judges a believer by the law of sin and death.
Although the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus sets people free from the law of sin and death, you’re gospel claims that it means we’re free not to transgress the law. And you claim that to transgress it makes you again subject to the sanctions of the law.

And what do you claim is the outcome should a Christian sin more than once?

'because if those brethren to not abstain from those sins, they will be bringing themselves back under God's wrath over to their unrighteousness. It is not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean.'
'those calling themselves Christians who continue in sin, have neither seen Christ nor known Him'.

For further confirmation of your doctrine and why it is seen by others here as works of the law, consider your posts below.
TOPIC: Galatians 5 Post #106
'Sin' is very specific. It is defined by everything covered in the Mosaic Law and more which Jesus specified.

#132
'You see, if you read the 10 commandments and think about them, they are all to do with attitude, and how that plays out in physical reality'.

You’re doctrine judges righteousness by works of the law, but you deny it’s works of the law.
Under the law of sin and death if you transgressed the law (sin, 1John 3:4) the result was death.
Likewise under the gospel you and EK propose, if a Christian transgresses the law (sin) the result is death, as EK said in stating that the soul that sin dies.

We see on the posts here from EK and Axehead that those who reject their false gospel are those allegedly in darkness persecuting the likes of them. Unfortunately this gospel you and EK, Axehead are sharing here is mixing grace with works of the law. This is lukewarm and Rev 3:15,16 describes it's outcome.

When Jesus was asked how often we should forgive one another he replied 7x70. But you’re gospel suggests God is less forgiving than this once we become a Christian as 'it’s not enough to repent once for sins that are past and be washed, and then return to the mire. One has to stay washed, to be clean.'

I hope this helps to explain why your gospel is recognized as mixing grace with works of the law.

Hi HAz!!!

[sup]1 Cor. 9:[/sup][sup]21 [/sup]to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Being under the law of Christ does not mean we are without the law of God. The hint should be that no one can escape the law of God. The laws of men can be broken...but not the law of God (the Creator of all things), So any scheme that purports to destroy what God has Himself built and approved...will be called lawless or the undertakers of such... workers of iniquity.

So the law of Christ provides us with the "lift" to fly over the law of God...so to speak. All men are subject to the law of God...but through the law of Christ we can fulfill it.

Another big hint is that Jesus is come not to destroy the law....but to fulfill it. There is no special class of Christians that can escape reality because of a bribe, secret password, or special connections....as in..hey I'm a friend of Jesus so can you let me off??? There is no provision for a religion that believes in Jesus but still walks according to the flesh.

God treats us all the same. What is supposed to make a Christian such is that he walks according to the Spirit and love against which there is no law. The law of God is not wrong or evil...it is the law of God. There is nothing wrong or evil in God. But the law itself does not empower the man to fulfill it...it rather shows up his sin. So Jesus came to enable men ..through faith...to apprehend His life that He walked in on earth. So we have a proven Saviour and a proven way (through grace) that we can follow in order to be holy as God is holy. That is the gospel.

 

[brother dave]

i kinda gazed through the post for today. and a couple things caught my attention. first THE SPIRIT OF CAIN was mentioned. and would like to explain from the GOSPEL OF GRACE view-point! and wondering if this is what was called ''a false gospel'' in an earlier post? first The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, of course is our Beloved Christ Jesus. the ground was cursed at the fall and also mens labors in that ground. by the way, the law is cursed if you lawkeepers did not know that? so cain like many now, labored in what God had cursed. and tried to offer to God from all there cursed work?? and HE REJECTED THERE OFFERING! but Able offered to God what HE desired! a reminder of HIS SON! and God was pleased and it was a righteous offering! Cain, who had labored so hard! could not stand that his brother was accepted for his gift and he was not! and murder came into his heart against his righteous brother! that is what many of you cursed lawkeepers do. you hate that your works mean nothing! and will try to destroy anyone who is accepted. i am righteous forever by the Lamb! does that make you lawkeepers mad? it is written that the True Way will be evil spoken of! and many of you are guilty!

Actually, we have a Christ-consciousness and a Christ-consciousness will cause one to realize that there is a cost to following Christ. Nothing is free. Have you read about the Rich Young Ruler. lately? Did Jesus just tell him to "accept" Him or was there a cost? If we were as honest as Jesus was in Evangelism we would see many turn away from Christ because of the precious idols in their hearts (like the Rich Young Ruler and riches). If the foundation is wrong, your walk will be in error. Easy-believism foments lawlessness. If you come into the church without repenting you will continue in an unrepentant life. In fact, you will continue your fleshly ways but with a religious spin (cloak) on it.

There is a walk of righteousness that we are called to. It is part of the whole package of salvation. Episkopos stated it and Jesus and the Apostles teach that not only is Salvation an EVENT but it is a PROCESS. It is a lifestyle! It is LIFE IN CHRIST! Even Samuel knew more than most people do today who profess to have the Holy Spirit.

(2 Sam 22:21-25 KJV) (21) The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness: according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me (22) For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God. (23) For all his judgments were before me: and as for his statutes, I did not depart from them. (24) I was also upright before him, and have kept myself from mine iniquity. (25) Therefore the LORD hath recompensed me according to my righteousness; according to my cleanness in his eye sight.

It is a common mistake in the church today to quote the following verse and assume that the Christian can do nothing that is righteous:

(Isa 64:6 KJV) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Righteous acts by Christians are when they respond to the Spirit of God in Faith and obey Him.

You still trust in Christ and never in your own works. Righteous acts are a result of obeying the Lord to abide in Him. It is the fruit of being in Him, listening to Him and doing what He says.

What you are saying is that if you get saved but become offended sometime in your walk and refuse to abide in the Lord from that time on, it's nothing really to worry about. Even though you are practically fallen away as far as anyone can tell, you will still be saved because God never left you (even though you left Him). So, why not just enjoy the world, and try to escape as much uncomfortableness (persecution, tribulation) as possible? I mean, "such a deal", who can refuse.

I think Jesus was being a legalist telling the Rich Young Ruler to forsake his sin. He certainly wasn't preaching the Gospel of Grace at that time, was He? Maybe, He was having a bad day. If the Rich Young Ruler only knew that he only had to forsake his sin to get saved but after that everything was golden and he could cherish any idol in his heart after salvation and still be saved. Afterall, he was a now a "card-carrying", verifiable SON and even SEALED with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Axehead

not sure where to begin with this rant of bible ignorance! but lets make a point on the rich young ruler. first he ask the Lord what MUST I DO? and the Lord used the law for its purpose? to make all guilty before God! HE gave the commandments and the young ruler replied i have kept these from my youth? and then Jesus said go and sell all your earthly treasure and give it to the poor and come follow me! and the rich young ruler went away very sad?? HE HAD BROKEN THE FIRST COMMANDMENT!!! thou shall have no Gods before ME? for it is written covetousness is IDOLATRY! Col 3:5. he like many of you cant even see your own hypocricy!

and by the way i am a preacher and minister of this gospel of grace! and we have and continue to establish new church bodys and are growing at a pace not seen since the Church was born by the Holy Spirit. we will soon replace the lawbreakers and hypocrites with honest and righteous men and women! i can defend any accusation against This Gospel for which i have already sufferd at the hands of you carnel lawkeepers or breakers, i should say!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brother dave,

Unless you have followed the posts through more than one thread, it's impossible for you to have perfect understanding of this discussion.

To aid our discussion, would you say that Romans 8:4 applies to you, in the same way as Paul testified to it applying to him?

From what you've shared of your testimony in your posts, once you came to the Lord and were forgiven, from that new place of righteousness, you found you had power over sin, didn't you? That's what I think you said......... am I right?

 

[brother dave]

Hi brother dave,

Unless you have followed the posts through more than one thread, it's impossible for you to have perfect understanding of this discussion.

To aid our discussion, would you say that Romans 8:4 applies to you, in the same way as Paul testified to it applying to him?

From what you've shared of your testimony in your posts, once you came to the Lord and were forgiven, from that new place of righteousness, you found you had power over sin, didn't you? That's what I think you said......... am I right?

absolutely! and the point had been made in the 7:7-8 that the 10 commndments produce sinful lust and apart from the law sin is dead! my whole point last night is i see many of you getting the cart before the horse? and i think a honest discussion of how being righteous and trusting in grace to overcome both flesh and sin in the flesh is helpful! but you must first trust in HIS Righteousness or you can not enter into the grace! for sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but grace. the strength or power of sin is the law!

for the law is NOT of faith! and all who attempt to justify themselves by it are under its curse! its so clear! yet the natural mind cannot get it? for unto this day a veil is upon there heart! when moses is read! MOSES CAN NOT ENTER INTO THE PROMISED LAND!

absolutely! and the point had been made in the 7:7-8 that the 10 commndments produce sinful lust and apart from the law sin is dead! my whole point last night is i see many of you getting the cart before the horse? and i think a honest discussion of how being righteous and trusting in grace to overcome both flesh and sin in the flesh is helpful! but you must first trust in HIS Righteousness or you can not enter into the grace! for sin will not have dominion over you because you are not under law but grace. the strength or power of sin is the law!

for the law is NOT of faith! and all who attempt to justify themselves by it are under its curse! its so clear! yet the natural mind cannot get it? for unto this day a veil is upon there heart! when moses is read! MOSES CAN NOT ENTER INTO THE PROMISED LAND!

the reason that most when saved or filled with the Spirit, have a new power over sin is because they are in the Spirit and in true fellowship with The Holy One! then some religious wack comes and gives them the 10 commandments of some other religious garbage and thier conscience is defiled by guilt! for by the law of condemnation comes death? seperation from there point of strength! and His Grace that they at first walked in can not flow because they now attempt to justify themselves by law? WHICH IS PRIDE of flesh. God gives grace to the humble but resist the proud flesh