The Gospel of Grace:

[Stan]

I have a theory about free will. It is this: that when 'faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God', Romans 10:17, for a short time we are truly free to respond to God with the faith that He's given through that 'hearing' of the word.

Whether the person 'hearing' exercises the faith they've received, or, the person 'hearing' rejects the call of the gospel, they made that choice with a truly freed will. Neither is so bound by sin they cannot take responsibility for their choice.

Ephesians 2:8, Mark 5:6, Romans 1:19

God knows whether a person has properly understood what's on offer, and if they haven't, He will keep on speaking until they do. He is like a seed-sower. He sows many more seeds than are necessary to bring forth a full crop. Yet even after first believing, believers continue to hear from God - and face similar choices again and again, receiving freedom to choose to do the right thing - including to resist sin.



Hi Stan,



I thought they believed that the 'heart' is where the 'mind' is. It's us that have separated them. ?? No?

No, they believed "feelings" were in the heart where it physically is, and learning & knowledge was in the mind. We now know it two natures in our being.

Well its been really fun but i have early hours and need my sleep. blessings upon those who hold our faith in our beloved Lord with a pure conscience. tribulation and trail upon those who hinder His glory from being revealed! and take ALL YOUR WORKS to His bloody cross and use your logic their with Him ? about how you use your own free-will to do all your good works??? be sure also to have it written down for the great judgment! im sure it will be of great importance to you on that day?

My, my, someone definitely needs their beauty sleep. Maybe tomorrow you'll be a little more gracious dave...as God calls us to be.
God Bless!

I disagree strongly. No one (except Christ) has ever walked 'in complete perfection in holiness'. If you judge by this standard, every single soul in creation, from beginning to end, is lost...including you. There are many scriptures I could post that would disagree with you on just the points you've said above:

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-14 ESV)

When we 'hear' the word of truth and 'believe' we are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit. God is indeed already living inside us. We know we don't need to be perfect before this happens, because above Paul is talking to relatively new believers, while below he admits he himself is not perfect yet. Surely the new Ephesians, who have the HS are not walking in perfect holiness before the apostle Paul?

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Philippians 3:12-16 ESV)

Paul says Jesus has made us his own...before we are perfect. The gospel of grace...gospel being 'good news' is that Jesus died for us and 'makes us his own' while we are still sinners. That indeed is good news...that we have 'already attained' salvation.

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! (Galatians 2:15-17 ESV)

And we see that just because we stumble and fall...sin, does not mean Christ is then sullied by it. "Certainly not!"
I could go on and on with verses that show us that when we 'hear' and 'believe' we are 'saved' and declared 'righteous'. That is the gospel of grace. To say, as you have above, that we do not have any of that until we whip our flesh into perfection, is not the gospel of grace...it's a message of desperation and futility.

Thanks Rach, I think Episkopos' agenda may soon become clear. Look up the meaning of his user name to get an idea of his perspective. He 'thinks' he is superior than most of us.
Proverbs 16:18 seems applicable here.

 

[Episkopos]

I see, so you are perfect in Christ and have NOT sinned since you were born again? You have nothing of your carnal nature that impedes your daily walk? You believe your carnal nature no longer exists since you received salvation in your heart?
BTW, the brain and heart are the same thing. It's where your psyche resides. Unless you believe as the ancient Greeks did that you heart and mind are in two different places in your body?
Maybe you can narrow down what in Romans 7 you are alluding to?

I can tell you are not a surgeon!

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

I disagree strongly. No one (except Christ) has ever walked 'in complete perfection in holiness'. If you judge by this standard, every single soul in creation, from beginning to end, is lost...including you. There are many scriptures I could post that would disagree with you on just the points you've said above:

Jesus Christ didn't come to live the perfect life instead of us...but rather while we were yet sinners He died for us...and was resurrected to give us HIS life in return for our own.

If you can understand this...then you will see that a true disciple of Christ has Christ living through him...and walking exactly as He walked.

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ is not a minister of sin..neither does He make His abode in sin. We cannot live in 2 natures... so we have been given access to the throne of grace to ask for what we lack in our walk...that is if we have the faith to do it and we feel it is necessary. Modern doctrine makes seeking the Lord sound like we lack faith and are seeking to be justified by the law. The very opposite is true.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11-14 ESV)

When we 'hear' the word of truth and 'believe' we are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit. God is indeed already living inside us. We know we don't need to be perfect before this happens, because above Paul is talking to relatively new believers, while below he admits he himself is not perfect yet. Surely the new Ephesians, who have the HS are not walking in perfect holiness before the apostle Paul?

Sanctification is both an event and a process. We go from glory to glory and faith to faith. Even the Galatians started out in the Spirit...but they didn't continue in the Spirit. Christ is our perfection. The issue is to remain in Him.

Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. (Philippians 3:12-16 ESV)

Paul had not yet attained to the character of the fulness of Christ at the time of his writing...neither have I at present. But this does not mean that we only get half filled with the Spirit and only partially cleansed from all unrighteousness. We get many fillings...and many leakings but the work of God is always perfect. Those who claim to have never known the perfect grace of God must be getting their grace from a discount store where they water down the purity of God.

Paul says Jesus has made us his own...before we are perfect. The gospel of grace...gospel being 'good news' is that Jesus died for us and 'makes us his own' while we are still sinners. That indeed is good news...that we have 'already attained' salvation.

Paul had not yet attained.... are we greater than Paul?

People confuse God for somebody who is not holy. In order to attain anything we need to finish the race. We need to learn to keep what we have been given.

Rev_3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which haves not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.



We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! (Galatians 2:15-17 ESV)

And we see that just because we stumble and fall...sin, does not mean Christ is then sullied by it. "Certainly not!"
I could go on and on with verses that show us that when we 'hear' and 'believe' we are 'saved' and declared 'righteous'. That is the gospel of grace. To say, as you have above, that we do not have any of that until we whip our flesh into perfection, is not the gospel of grace...it's a message of desperation and futility.

We lose the presence of God when we decide to sin...so of course Jesus is not directly involved in condoning our sins. But we still bring a reproach to the Lord when we show that we love the world so much as to not remain in His presence at all times.

You didn't look at Romans 7 where it states that we cannot be wed to another husband (Christ) while we are still married to the old sin nature.

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

We must be dead to sin in order to be alive to Christ.

As Paul said...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


This is the testimony of Paul. People make all kids of doctrinal mis-applications in order to void the simple truth.

When we are full of mud and are cleansed by a shower..we feel clean. But this is nothing to the perfect cleansing of God through the cleansing blood. I wonder how many have ever experienced true grace on this forum.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[goodshepard55]

Now this is getting interesting and great teachings also, blessing to you all for bringing this back on track...great job...

 

[haz]

Thanks Rach, I think Episkopos' agenda may soon become clear. Look up the meaning of his user name to get an idea of his perspective. He 'thinks' he is superior than most of us.
Proverbs 16:18 seems applicable here.

Hi Stan,

I see you've met Episkopos (aka, Epi or EK).
Below are some quotes from Epi that you might find informative.

'We know that we are in Christ when we no longer think or do unrighteousness or sin.'
'Abiding in Christ provides the power to not sin.'
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet[font=Times New Roman']"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."
"Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ."
"Your elimination of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness."[/font]

[font=Times New Roman']Epi claims his doctrine makes Christ harder to attain. He also admits that he sins still and therefore is not abiding in Christ. As you have already noted, Epi seeks to undermine the faith of Christ amongst those on this forum.[/font]

Paul had not yet attained to the character of the fulness of Christ at the time of his writing...neither have I at present. But this does not mean that we only get half filled with the Spirit and only partially cleansed from all unrighteousness. We get many fillings...and many leakings but the work of God is always perfect. Those who claim to have never known the perfect grace of God must be getting their grace from a discount store where they water down the purity of God.
Paul had not yet attained.... are we greater than Paul?

People confuse God for somebody who is not holy. In order to attain anything we need to finish the race. We need to learn to keep what we have been given.

Hi Epi,

True, we need to finish the race. But your false gospel determines the outcome of the race by whether one is perfectly obeying the law in this physical life or not.
For you unbelief means not perfectly obeying the law.

But scripture shows unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).

 

[Axehead]

Hi again haz,

I added to my post to you, but missed the edit window while it was open. Your post (#2) in Kidron's thread How to understand your sins now that you are born again, http://www.christian...are-born-again/ gave me more food for thought, so I'm not sure how far apart we are, but I do have two real objections according to what you wrote there.

The first is your redefinition of 'sin' in such a way that no definition of sin can apply to Christians by your reckoning. This cannot be sound doctrine, in the light of John's first epistle and Paul's epistles.

The second is your reversal of world history's real timeline with regard to 'where there is no law there is no transgression' - Romans 4:15.

There was no law for over two thousand years after the Fall. Then there was the law of Moses, the keeping of which was intrinsic to Israel being a nation in God's sight. There was no going back from there. The only way was forward. Christ came under the law. Christ brought the law to an end for those who believe in Him. But the law has not disappeared for those who have not believed in Him. And it could be argued that every failure of a Christian to obey Him, is also a form of unbelief.

But there is a way to be free from the law - by embracing the death of Jesus Christ - Romans 10:4, Acts 13:38, 39, that we may walk in newness of life, by the power of the Holy Spirit, obeying HIm. In this newness of life we reckon ourselves dead with Christ continuously, and yield to Him our whole bodies as instruments of righteousness, set apart for His purposes, to bear the fruit of holiness. There should be no room for sin here, but, what of 1 John 2:1?

Why would Paul exhort Timothy to 'flee youthful lusts', if he believed that the law had been removed so that now Christians can sin? Romans 6:1. Why would he exhort 'flee idolatry', or, 'flee fornication', if now the technical absence of the law means transgression can no longer be identified as sin? Why would he buffet his own body, lest he himself be castaway?


I am interested in your answers to these questions, and whether you believe Paul's exhortations apply to us today.

Take your time replying, and don't forget those exercises! :mellow:

Hi dragonfly and others,

I am a bit behind on all the posts but just wanted to mention something.


The Lord Jesus Christ obviously has to do something about this flesh nature, or we would never be able to be obedient to the Spirit of God. This is why the Spirit of God leads us to put to death the deeds of the rebellious flesh (Rom. 8:13, 14; Gal. 5:16,24). God knows without His Spirit abiding in us and without the regeneration of our spirit (new heart) that it would be impossible to live the Christian life and walk as He walked and it would be patently impossible for Him to command us as He does. In the new covenant, the Lord Jesus Christ enables us to overcome this flesh nature in order to be conformed to the image of Christ. And because of His Spirit in us, He doesn't ask, He now commands us to overcome.

2Pet 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pet 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Axehead

 

[Stan]

I can tell you are not a surgeon!

Very perceptive.

Maybe you can answer direct questions with direct answers instead of obfuscating with scriptures and NO context.
You seems to be afraid to actually answer anything that will commit you to a position, I wonder why that is? h34r:

 

[brother dave]

Just a thought,the whole idea that walking in love and grace means you never rebuke or warn those who are in error and are perishing with this world? is a great mistake! and i believe a religious mask that many christians have been convinced they should wear. i dont wear this mask and you will find those who have the divine nature often act in great boldness ? read and notice the nature at work in the writers of the NT and the Lord Himself. for many times the old man must be shaken from his lofty position formed in ignorance and pride, in order to take those unshakable positions of grace, where they may learn to truly stand. as for sincere brothers in honest faith i will by that same nature seek to edify and encourage that which is upon the true foundation! God bless

 

[haz]

Very perceptive.

Maybe you can answer direct questions with direct answers instead of obfuscating with scriptures and NO context.
You seems to be afraid to actually answer anything that will commit you to a position, I wonder why that is? h34r:

Hi Stan,

Actually Epi normally avoids quoting scripture, so his latest post #142 with scriptures is a change.
But, like you, many here have found that Epi is ambiguous in his replies. I'm sure this is deliberate.

Hi haz,

I did read your post with the small writing. To be honest, the main difference I can find between what Ek, Ax and I know to be true, is that you quote a combination of verses which absolve believers of all sin regardless of their behaviour, and we don't believe that's what the BIble teaches.

That's it in a nutshell. If you believe that now you don't sin by definition because you are righteous in Christ, then your gospel is more one of sinless perfection that Episkopos' has ever claimed.

You are happy to quote 'have ceased from sin' 1 Peter 4:1, but there is nothing about suffering in the flesh, or, resisting sin, in what you've written, nor about living our lives to God, rather than - v 2 - according to the lusts of men. This is basic. He did not give His life for us so we could carry on doing what we wanted. He gave His life to buy us back into fellowship with God in reality ceasing from sin, by walking in the Spirit and not following the flesh. It's not a technical definition. It's related to how we actually behave. This seems to have been one of your main complaints against Ek's 'doctrine' - that he agrees with Paul, Peter and John that ceasing from sin means living differently than before coming to faith in Christ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is, you call this a 'works' gospel.

Hi dragonfly,

Yes, I would say our differences are much like you describe.

The reason why I see your doctrine as works (if you actually do follow EK's doctrine), is you see perfect obedience to the law of righteousness, in this physical life, as proof that one is abiding in Christ. Anyone who fails this perfect obedience to the law dies.

BUT, regarding your concerns about a Christian's lifestyle, I see God working in our lives as we grow in Christ. Lifestyles improve, although this will vary being that we're at different stages of growth, different circumstances, etc.
Ultimately, however, our righteousness is in Christ, by believing on Jesus.
The criminal on the cross next to Jesus was righteous in Christ without any works of the law to show for it.

Epi's doctrine rejects this righteousness claiming physical evidence in our lives is necessary or else death is the penalty.
Epi's doctrine of works of the law is rejection to submit to the righteousness of God (Rom 10:3).

 

[Rach1370]

Modern doctrine makes seeking the Lord sound like we lack faith and are seeking to be justified by the law. The very opposite is true.

You know, I found so much I object to in your post, that I don't know where to start really, nor do I have the time to address such a long post.
You have speaking in 'religiousesse' down very well, but to be honest, your ideas chase themselves around and around and around. We can't be properly in Christ or following Christ until we are perfect...but we can't be perfect until we are residing in Christ? How on earth do you make that work? For that matter, if we were residing in a state of perfection in Christ, wouldn't that mean that we wouldn't fall away again...because 'being perfect' means we don't make mistakes? Or is this 'perfection' you talk about in being 'in Christ' not enough...not truly perfect enough to keep us there?
Absolutely Paul had not yet 'attained' it, just as every living person who loves Jesus has not yet attained it...'it' being perfection. The bible makes it clear that we will reach 'perfection' when we cease breathing. Before then we have the promise of that perfection...the assurance, but here on earth? Fallen planet, fallen people, fallen flesh? Not gonna happen in this life. This is why when Paul talks about the Kingdom of heaven...of people dying and being given a new glorified body, he talks about how the perishable, the corruptible, cannot inherit it. We have to die and be given a new body before we can enter heaven.
So yeah, while you may be able to use enough religious language to confuse people, I just don't buy what you're selling. You're making the gospel of grace into a parody of a 10 step program. You need to get to step 10 for ultimate fulfilment (read perfection in Christ)...but unfortunately step 9 always tells you to go back to step 1.
A really quick break down of the 'gospel of grace', as the bible teaches it? It's all God. All of it. He elects, He sends Jesus, He opens our hearts to the message of salvation and gives the grace to redeem us. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. That means that he saves us and as we keep our eyes on him he grows us in sanctification and holiness. Like Peter, as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus, we'll be walking forwards, to the beautiful and ultimate ending where we draw our last breath and enter into his presence and our perfection. That is what is good news. That it is all God, and none us....that way we have absolutely nothing to boast in, and all the glory goes to him.
The message you are giving Epi...it ultimately gives us something we need to do...we need to 'get in Jesus and stay in him'...you are putting the onus and glory of that all on us. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Stan,

I see you've met Episkopos (aka, Epi or EK).
Below are some quotes from Epi that you might find informative.

'We know that we are in Christ when we no longer think or do unrighteousness or sin.'
'Abiding in Christ provides the power to not sin.'
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet[font=Times New Roman']"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."
"Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ."
"Your elimination of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness."[/font]

[font=Times New Roman']Epi claims his doctrine makes Christ harder to attain. He also admits that he sins still and therefore is not abiding in Christ. As you have already noted, Epi seeks to undermine the faith of Christ amongst those on this forum.[/font]



Hi Epi,

True, we need to finish the race. But your false gospel determines the outcome of the race by whether one is perfectly obeying the law in this physical life or not.
For you unbelief means not perfectly obeying the law.

But scripture shows unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of (John 16:9).

In Christ every step of the way IS perfect...we are talking about the Creator of the universe and not some pop leader. I am not trying to make anything harder for anyone...just the opposite. Wouldn't you know for yourselves if the Son of glory was ruling in your own heart? I am trying to bring some unvarnished truth here. That doesn't seem to be much appreciated! But has it ever been?

Very perceptive.

Maybe you can answer direct questions with direct answers instead of obfuscating with scriptures and NO context.
You seems to be afraid to actually answer anything that will commit you to a position, I wonder why that is? h34r:

What are you asking???

You know, I found so much I object to in your post, that I don't know where to start really, nor do I have the time to address such a long post.
You have speaking in 'religiousesse' down very well, but to be honest, your ideas chase themselves around and around and around. We can't be properly in Christ or following Christ until we are perfect...but we can't be perfect until we are residing in Christ? How on earth do you make that work? For that matter, if we were residing in a state of perfection in Christ, wouldn't that mean that we wouldn't fall away again...because 'being perfect' means we don't make mistakes? Or is this 'perfection' you talk about in being 'in Christ' not enough...not truly perfect enough to keep us there?
Absolutely Paul had not yet 'attained' it, just as every living person who loves Jesus has not yet attained it...'it' being perfection. The bible makes it clear that we will reach 'perfection' when we cease breathing. Before then we have the promise of that perfection...the assurance, but here on earth? Fallen planet, fallen people, fallen flesh? Not gonna happen in this life. This is why when Paul talks about the Kingdom of heaven...of people dying and being given a new glorified body, he talks about how the perishable, the corruptible, cannot inherit it. We have to die and be given a new body before we can enter heaven.
So yeah, while you may be able to use enough religious language to confuse people, I just don't buy what you're selling. You're making the gospel of grace into a parody of a 10 step program. You need to get to step 10 for ultimate fulfilment (read perfection in Christ)...but unfortunately step 9 always tells you to go back to step 1.
A really quick break down of the 'gospel of grace', as the bible teaches it? It's all God. All of it. He elects, He sends Jesus, He opens our hearts to the message of salvation and gives the grace to redeem us. He is the author and perfecter of our faith. That means that he saves us and as we keep our eyes on him he grows us in sanctification and holiness. Like Peter, as long as we keep our eyes on Jesus, we'll be walking forwards, to the beautiful and ultimate ending where we draw our last breath and enter into his presence and our perfection. That is what is good news. That it is all God, and none us....that way we have absolutely nothing to boast in, and all the glory goes to him.
The message you are giving Epi...it ultimately gives us something we need to do...we need to 'get in Jesus and stay in him'...you are putting the onus and glory of that all on us. That is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thatr is not what I'm saying...We must look at things from God's perspective...not men's. We need to be holy to be with God. All the ways of God are in holiness. So we must be first cleased by the blood....and then remain in that cleansed state by not soiling our garments with further sins...how??? By walking in the Spirit. If we are filled with God...there is no room for the things of this world to enter in and soil us. When we walk in the Spirit we overflow with His life in our hearts into the world. That is our witness.

Are we filled with this love joy and inexpressible peace? If not...we still have a ways to go. Pride aside...don't all admit that they have a ways to go? If so, then why is it the ones who claim they do that buck the hardest when the way to go is put forth????

What is more important...being seen as important or saved or special or having an accurate understanding of the truth?

God is waiting for us to turn to Him for a deeper work of the cross...in order to give us more of HIM. This should not be seen as bad...but good.

Imagine a father giving a toy to his child. The lesson he wishes to show his child is to learn to trust him. So he asks the child for the toy back. But the child thinks that the father just wants to take the toy back...the focus is totally on the gift and not the giver. The father wants to give the child everything he has...but cannot due to the selfish nature of the child.

This goes along way to explaining the childish attitude and immaturity of many of the posts here. We are to give all to the Lord. Even the elders in the throne room lay down their crowns before the Lord...no status mongering...but then I think we all know what real maturity looks like in spite of the mind conditioning the enemy is feeding us. Humility claims nothing for itself. By grabbing hold of the gifts we may have received from God...we are not getting the bigger lesson of trust, patience, understanding...and love. It is very carnal to argue over the supposed gifts we have received. The bible speaks the truth...but a truth that few will bear to hear since the human nature wants to keep everything it has....for itself.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Please could you do a bit of exposition on the NT Greek word which has been translated perfect in the KJV, but which more accurately means complete? Heb 10:14

There is another Greek word which occurs less often, which does mean something closer to wholly without imperfection.

I have the feeling that every time you use 'perfect' and 'perfection', you are being interpreted by the readers to mean 'wholly without imperfection' - whereas I believe you are referring to being completed by abiding in Christ, Col 2:10.



Here are some thoughts about the process upon which we embark after we first believe - which some people call 'saving faith', to distinguish it from the continuing faith we exercise every day - as we are being saved.

To dwell in Christ implies that we are co-operating with Him to bear the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:16, 22, 23 and therefore also, we are receiving of His life to enable us to overcome the tendancies of the flesh towards sin, which hang around after our conversion a bit like rotting fruit hanging on a dead tree. Only it doesn't feel like that to us. The tree seems to be very much alive. But it is not if we have agreed with God's determination that we are dead in sin Eph 2:1 - 3, and we have agreed to be buried with Christ John 12:24, and see with our hearts that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has been dealt a death blow in us. Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9. through His death. In the Spirit this is true - Heb 10:14, and our mind and our flesh have to play catch-up for real - Eph 4:23. He really died, so that we may really live.

This abiding in the life of Christ is effective, because 'the sin' - that spiritual power which had corrupted Adam's flesh, (so that he bore children in his own likeness, Gen 5:1, 2, 3 rather than in the likeness of God) which entered the world through Adam, Rom 5:12 was overcome by Christ on the cross Col 2:15, Gen 3:15.

The enmity between the flesh and the Spirit still exists, but through the spiritual effect of genuine repentance and the physical effects of literally obeying His will, Matt 7:21 - resisting the devil, Jam 4:7 yielding not to temptation Jam 1:14, making no provision for the flesh to fulfil its lusts Rom 13:14, mortifying the flesh Rom 8:13, Col 3:5 - 10 looking into the glory in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 3:18, walking in the light as He is in the light 1 John 1:7, we find ourselves in a new process. Heb 9:13, 14, Rom 1:16, 17, 18, 19.

The hope which we now have, of resurrection to life (as opposed to resurrection to damnation) should cause us to desist from a lifestyle of sinning, 1 John 3, 6; 1 John 2:1, and to desire to maintain our fellowship with the Lord because we love Him for having loved us so much as to die for us. 1 John 5:4 John 15:10, 14. He gave His whole being for us. 1 Pet 2:24, 25. We should give our whole beings for Him. Rom 12:1, 2. Now, our previous life of 'I' and 'mine' is forfeited as we remain grafted into His death Rom 6:5.

The idea that we only die in Him by imputation and only receive His righteousness by imputation - but they have no effect on us at heart level and daily lifestyle - is foreign to Paul's teaching. Rom 6:12, 13, 16, 18, 19, Rom 7:4.

The acknowledgement of Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20, 21 and Gal 5:24 run straight into the outworking of Eph 3:7 and the way Paul connects it back to Eph 1:19, 20. The Spirit of grace (the Spirit of enabling) in our lives gives us new attitudes and thoughts (eg Paul's change of attitude towards believers, and Gentiles) and an ease to be different in situations which previously defeated us. 2 Cor 10:3, 4, 5, 6; Eph 6:10.

This is the life of on-going victory. Rom 8:4, 16, 17, 18, 28; Heb 8:10, 11, 12, 13


2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth
commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

These are not the claims of a man whose heart has remained uncircumcised. Col 2:11, 12; Rom 6:4; Rom 2:29.



From My Utmost for His Highest, June 15, 2012



And beside this . . . add . . — 2 Peter 1:5

In the Matter of Drudgery. You have inherited the Divine nature, says Peter (v.4), now
screw your attention down and form habits, give diligence, concentrate. “Add” means all
that character means. No man is born either naturally or supernaturally with character, he
has to make character. Nor are we born with habits; we have to form habits on the basis of
the new life God has put into us. We are not meant to be illuminated versions, but the common
stuff of ordinary life exhibiting the marvel of the grace of God. Drudgery is the touchstone of
character. The great hindrance in spiritual life is that we will look for big things to do.
“Jesus took a towel . . . and began to wash the disciples’ feet.”

There are times when there is no illumination and no thrill, but just the daily round, the common
task. Routine is God’s way of saving us between our times of inspiration. Do not expect God always
to give you His thrilling minutes, but learn to live in the domain of drudgery by the power of God.

It is the “adding” that is difficult. We say we do not expect God to carry us to heaven on flowery
beds of ease, and yet we act as if we did! The tiniest detail in which I obey has all the omnipotent
power of the grace of God behind it. If I do my duty, not for duty’s sake, but because I believe God
is engineering my circumstances, then at the very point of my obedience the whole superb
grace of God is mine through the Atonement.


~ Oswald Chambers ~

 

[Butch5]

let me make myself clear, whether it be my free-will or Gods will? i am forever righteous for HE said it was righteous to MAKE ME the sinner RIGHTEOUS! it was HIS will! not mine? and the whole point of salvation is to die to the FLESH with its WILL! and live in Gods will! what i see is many walking in by what they call freewill? but they are really just slaves to there own sense of right and wrong! which by the way is humanism!!!!

Hi Brother Dave,

I think the free will issue is geared towards the choosing to believe God more so than an issue of one behavior.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

Please could you do a bit of exposition on the NT Greek word which has been translated perfect in the KJV, but which more accurately means complete? Heb 10:14

There is another Greek word which occurs less often, which does mean something closer to wholly without imperfection.

I have the feeling that every time you use 'perfect' and 'perfection', you are being interpreted by the readers to mean 'wholly without imperfection' - whereas I believe you are referring to being completed by abiding in Christ, Col 2:10.



Here are some thoughts about the process upon which we embark after we first believe - which some people call 'saving faith', to distinguish it from the continuing faith we exercise every day - as we are being saved.

To dwell in Christ implies that we are co-operating with Him to bear the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:16, 22, 23 and therefore also, we are receiving of His life to enable us to overcome the tendancies of the flesh towards sin, which hang around after our conversion a bit like rotting fruit hanging on a dead tree. Only it doesn't feel like that to us. The tree seems to be very much alive. But it is not if we have agreed with God's determination that we are dead in sin Eph 2:1 - 3, and we have agreed to be buried with Christ John 12:24, and see with our hearts that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil has been dealt a death blow in us. Matt 3:10, Luke 3:9. through His death. In the Spirit this is true - Heb 10:14, and our mind and our flesh have to play catch-up for real - Eph 4:23. He really died, so that we may really live.

This abiding in the life of Christ is effective, because 'the sin' - that spiritual power which had corrupted Adam's flesh, (so that he bore children in his own likeness, Gen 5:1, 2, 3 rather than in the likeness of God) which entered the world through Adam, Rom 5:12 was overcome by Christ on the cross Col 2:15, Gen 3:15.

The enmity between the flesh and the Spirit still exists, but through the spiritual effect of genuine repentance and the physical effects of literally obeying His will, Matt 7:21 - resisting the devil, Jam 4:7 yielding not to temptation Jam 1:14, making no provision for the flesh to fulfil its lusts Rom 13:14, mortifying the flesh Rom 8:13, Col 3:5 - 10 looking into the glory in the face of Jesus Christ, 2 Cor 3:18, walking in the light as He is in the light 1 John 1:7, we find ourselves in a new process. Heb 9:13, 14, Rom 1:16, 17, 18, 19.

The hope which we now have, of resurrection to life (as opposed to resurrection to damnation) should cause us to desist from a lifestyle of sinning, 1 John 3, 6; 1 John 2:1, and to desire to maintain our fellowship with the Lord because we love Him for having loved us so much as to die for us. 1 John 5:4 John 15:10, 14. He gave His whole being for us. 1 Pet 2:24, 25. We should give our whole beings for Him. Rom 12:1, 2. Now, our previous life of 'I' and 'mine' is forfeited as we remain grafted into His death Rom 6:5.

The idea that we only die in Him by imputation and only receive His righteousness by imputation - but they have no effect on us at heart level and daily lifestyle - is foreign to Paul's teaching. Rom 6:12, 13, 16, 18, 19, Rom 7:4.

The acknowledgement of Rom 6:6, Gal 2:20, 21 and Gal 5:24 run straight into the outworking of Eph 3:7 and the way Paul connects it back to Eph 1:19, 20. The Spirit of grace (the Spirit of enabling) in our lives gives us new attitudes and thoughts (eg Paul's change of attitude towards believers, and Gentiles) and an ease to be different in situations which previously defeated us. 2 Cor 10:3, 4, 5, 6; Eph 6:10.

This is the life of on-going victory. Rom 8:4, 16, 17, 18, 28; Heb 8:10, 11, 12, 13


2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth
commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

These are not the claims of a man whose heart has remained uncircumcised. Col 2:11, 12; Rom 6:4; Rom 2:29.



From My Utmost for His Highest, June 15, 2012



And beside this . . . add . . — 2 Peter 1:5

In the Matter of Drudgery. You have inherited the Divine nature, says Peter (v.4), now
screw your attention down and form habits, give diligence, concentrate. “Add” means all
that character means. No man is born either naturally or supernaturally with character, he
has to make character. Nor are we born with habits; we have to form habits on the basis of
the new life God has put into us. We are not meant to be illuminated versions, but the common
stuff of ordinary life exhibiting the marvel of the grace of God. Drudgery is the touchstone of
character. The great hindrance in spiritual life is that we will look for big things to do.
“Jesus took a towel . . . and began to wash the disciples’ feet.”

There are times when there is no illumination and no thrill, but just the daily round, the common
task. Routine is God’s way of saving us between our times of inspiration. Do not expect God always
to give you His thrilling minutes, but learn to live in the domain of drudgery by the power of God.

It is the “adding” that is difficult. We say we do not expect God to carry us to heaven on flowery
beds of ease, and yet we act as if we did! The tiniest detail in which I obey has all the omnipotent
power of the grace of God behind it. If I do my duty, not for duty’s sake, but because I believe God
is engineering my circumstances, then at the very point of my obedience the whole superb
grace of God is mine through the Atonement.


~ Oswald Chambers ~

Hi!!!

Where men are concerned things are always compromised to some degree. As they say...you take the good with the bad...or..eat the meat and spit out the bones....etc

But with God all things are holy. He needs no improvement. His ways are perfect. Look at the universe...is this the work of a dabbler???

So we must make a distinction between what men can do and what God is doing. That is how we know who is authoring the work. The troublew is that in these lawless days so few have ANY experience whatsoever that is actually of God...and not tainted by men. So few are drinking from the Source these days. So the task of preaching the truth becomes that much more difficult.

God's ways are perfect....they cannot possibly be improved upon. All other standards must be judged against them...and found lacking. So God deals with us by introducing His perfect ways to us. Of course we are imperfect and immature...especially at the beginning. But we see very clearly the wonderful grace of God that shows us His love. So we are inspired by Him to seek after Him and His ways. We go from filling to filling...usually very inefficiently; becoming proud, smug, contentious..etc

But over time some of us will actually learn to submit all our ways to Him. He then shows us a greater revelation...and a closer walk. Again we get proud and smug and contentious. Then a few of those few learn to surrender again..AND SEE THE PATTERN thus learning God's ways. As we do this we learn to remain humble in ALL circumstances always rejoicing no matter what happens since all things are permitted by God and work together for the good of those who rejoice always in Him.

So we see the perfecting of our character. We never become perfect ourselves...but fully mature in our dependence on Christ who is our perfection.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

That was a nice answer, and I do agree about seeing things from God's point of view (like Heb 10:14) but.... you are still being misunderstood. Are you using the word 'perfect' too loosely, or are you 'perfectly' justified in so doing?

I've just looked in the KJV NT at 'perfect' (perfected, perfection, perfectly, and 'perfect' as an adjective), and there are at least five Greek words used. For those who assume they know what you mean by your usage - and therefore disagree that your stance is biblical - I think you need to check the Greek when you have time, and figure out whether perfect really is what you mean, or, some other word would be more accurate?


Many thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

That was a nice answer, and I do agree about seeing things from God's point of view (like Heb 10:14) but.... you are still being misunderstood. Are you using the word 'perfect' too loosely, or are you 'perfectly' justified in so doing?

I've just looked in the KJV NT at 'perfect' (perfected, perfection, perfectly, and 'perfect' as an adjective), and there are at least five Greek words used. For those who assume they know what you mean by your usage - and therefore disagree that your stance is biblical - I think you need to check the Greek when you have time, and figure out whether perfect really is what you mean, or, some other word would be more accurate?


Many thanks.

As I have said...our perfection is only found in Christ. We become completely mature after many tribulations and trials...but we are never perfect in ourselves. We are made complete in Him. We need to make it into God's inner circle so to speak. Most are satisfied to get something from God...so they are happy with the gift...but are still largely ignorant about the Giver. It is like the story of the 10 lepers....all were healed but only one sought out the Healer. So it is in the church. Everybody claims to be saved but who really knows the Lord???

I think what people are against is the nature of the truth and the experience of the truth...which is without sin...since men usually don't experience this in man made institutions. They settle for half a filling or being partially cleansed...they are lukewarm in their devotion and compromised in their direction. So when this is pointed out...they freak out!!!! But wisdom is known of her children. We should all be happy to be exhorted towards a closer walk with the Lord. Why be so satisfied with so little?

 

[Stan]

What are you asking???

Really?....My previous questions were NOT clear enough? I thought they were pretty pointed.

Scroll up and actually read posts 132, 134, 137 and 146.... then please try to answer each one directly, without obfuscation, or strawmen, or side tracking.
Thanks

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

we are never perfect in ourselves. We are made complete in Him.

Yes. I agree.

I guess anyone who wants to understand the different Greek words for 'perfect' will have to do their own study!

But

We need to make it into God's inner circle so to speak.

Brother, this makes it sound as if you believe there is an outer circle. But what are they inside, if they are outside the knowledge of God? Rom 8:17, 1 Peter 5:10 Paul calls it 'walking worthy' of our calling in Christ. I put a great store on being able to recognise His voice.

When a baby is born it is totally dependent on the work of others to feed and care for it until it can do those things for itself. It doesn't 'know' anything although it has a kind of aural and visual map of the people and place where it is located. It's like that in the local church too - the new believer is not fully orientated or knowledgeable as he or she will be one day, we hope - but, they are fully members of the family even as babies, if they've been born again. I believe you'd agree with this. And I agree that there is a need for maturity, but that takes time and patience all round.

 

[Stan]

We need to make it into God's inner circle so to speak.

Well doesn't that sound a tad Pharisaical, or RCC, hard to tell?

Maybe you can comment on this scripture Paul writes in Romans 8:31-32?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? [sup]32 [/sup]He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?​

NO inner circle Ep...just a relationship with God, as brothers and sisters of Jesus.

 

[brother dave]

well i guess i am still allowed on this forum?? so the Lord wins again! i find the fact that a men such as this well trained ----- can spout any kind of nonsense to attempt to overthow the faith of the sheep? and when an faithful servant and righteous man uncovers the wolf the faithful servant is rebuked? this is the condition of our church? for paul said you suffer fools gladly, but i have become an enemy because i speak the truth in love? maybe a discussion on what biblical love really is, would be helpful for some of the more timid of the flock?

 

[Episkopos]

Well doesn't that sound a tad Pharisaical, or RCC, hard to tell?

Maybe you can comment on this scripture Paul writes in Romans 8:31-32?

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? [sup]32 [/sup]He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?​

NO inner circle Ep...just a relationship with God, as brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Human reasoning not supported at all by the bible. We must be approved of God before we are given any authority. If you read the NT you will see that Jesus had 12 close disciples...His inner circle while He was here. Then there was the 70, the 120....but the multitude that were there to crown Him king...He sent away. So there are always different circles.

1Co_11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Do all overcome in Christ? Do all rule and reign with Him? Do all sit at the table with Abraham Isaac and Jacob???

I suppose in the imagination everyone pictures themselves there....

The inner circle of Christ is His body that are called to be saints. These are learning to walk in the power of the resurrection exactly as Jesus. As He IS so are WE in this world.