The Gospel of Grace:

[Axehead]

I understand what Episkopos is saying and I don't feel like my faith is being overthrown at all. I am encouraged by many of his words.

I would like to add that many Christians today, through the religious organizations that they are part of are indoctrinated with slogans and a few isolated Scriptures rather than being instructed in the whole counsel of God’s Word, which would lead them to holiness.

Some of the things we hear today are: “Everyone sins”; “Christians aren’t perfect; they are just forgiven”; “Well, after all, nobody’s perfect”; “Don’t doubt your salvation"; “Once saved, always saved”; "I heard you pray the sinners prayer”; “It’s easy to be saved"; "all you have to do is follow me in this prayer.”

Through their traditions, doctrines and rituals, the religious "structures" today have become an expression of a form of godliness rather than becoming an expression of Jesus Christ (which is true godliness).

More often than not, most people are being led to make a commitment to the structure (institution, doctrine, tradition) rather than to Jesus. What happens then is that the structure becomes an idol in our hearts that we don't want to give up and Jesus' voice becomes fainter and fainter.

What we have come to today (because of the false gospels being preached) is that , it does not matter how the church member lives or whether they have unforgiveness one towards another. It only matters that they show up for the religious exercises and tithe.

And this is when a spirit of sleep (spiritual slumber and darkness) will settle upon the congregation and the Spirit of God can not have any control over their lives because they have become lords of their own lives all the while they are honoring God with their lips. They settle into living in spiritual darkness and they call it LIGHT.

"This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men” (Mark 7:6-8 )

Yes, it is vain to worship God with your lips (because He does not have your heart).

So, how can we turn from sin and walk in righteousness? God's Word shows us the true motives of our heart if we come to God's Word with ALL OF OUR HEART. If we come to God's Word with a divided heart (ulterior motives) rather than hungering and thirsting after righteousness, we will just have a RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE. But if we come to God's Word with ALL OF OUR HEART, we will be changed.

Only as the Word divides spirit from soul and flesh can we then learn to hear the Holy Spirit speak to us. We then are able to turn aside from soulish and fleshly religion and walk before the Lord in holiness and purity, putting to death all the deeds of the flesh. “As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the formal lusts in your ignorance: But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ya holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1: 14-16)

The Pharisees were blinded to righteousness and holiness because of their religious structures. They created these religious structures around Abraham ("We have Abraham as our father") the Mosaic Law mammon and lording over men (wanting to be the ones in control). They watered down God's Word by adding their traditions to it or taking away what they did not like and their structures led them after carnal traditions and fleshly desires.

Because the Pharisees were blinded, they could receive no more light from the Word of God.

And when the Word of God is not able to have any place in you, it is because God does not have your heart. “He that is of God hears God’s Words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

It is no different today for people whose hearts have been captured by carnal traditions, which lead people after fleshly lusts. They will hate everyone who brings new light contrary to their religious structures:

“But if our gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Cor. 4:3,4).

Satan and the powers of darkness blind the minds of all who receive their lies (wrapped up to look like truth).

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Many are called but few are actually chosen and approved.

I understand what Episkopos is saying and I don't feel like my faith is being overthrown at all. I am encouraged by many of his words.

I would like to add that many Christians today, through the religious organizations that they are part of are indoctrinated with slogans and a few isolated Scriptures rather than being instructed in the whole counsel of God’s Word, which would lead them to holiness.

Some of the things we hear today are: “Everyone sins”; “Christians aren’t perfect; they are just forgiven”; “Well, after all, nobody’s perfect”; “Don’t doubt your salvation"; “Once saved, always saved”; "I heard you pray the sinners prayer”; “It’s easy to be saved"; "all you have to do is follow me in this prayer.”

Through their traditions, doctrines and rituals, the religious "structures" today have become an expression of a form of godliness rather than becoming an expression of Jesus Christ (which is true godliness).

More often than not, most people are being led to make a commitment to the structure (institution, doctrine, tradition) rather than to Jesus. What happens then is that the structure becomes an idol in our hearts that we don't want to give up and Jesus' voice becomes fainter and fainter.

What we have come to today (because of the false gospels being preached) is that , it does not matter how the church member lives or whether they have unforgiveness one towards another. It only matters that they show up for the religious exercises and tithe.

And this is when a spirit of sleep (spiritual slumber and darkness) will settle upon the congregation and the Spirit of God can not have any control over their lives because they have become lords of their own lives all the while they are honoring God with their lips. They settle into living in spiritual darkness and they call it LIGHT.

"This people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men” (Mark 7:6-8 )

Yes, it is vain to worship God with your lips (because He does not have your heart).

So, how can we turn from sin and walk in righteousness? God's Word shows us the true motives of our heart if we come to God's Word with ALL OF OUR HEART. If we come to God's Word with a divided heart (ulterior motives) rather than hungering and thirsting after righteousness, we will just have a RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE. But if we come to God's Word with ALL OF OUR HEART, we will be changed.

Only as the Word divides spirit from soul and flesh can we then learn to hear the Holy Spirit speak to us. We then are able to turn aside from soulish and fleshly religion and walk before the Lord in holiness and purity, putting to death all the deeds of the flesh. “As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the formal lusts in your ignorance: But as He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ya holy for I am holy” (1 Pet. 1: 14-16)

The Pharisees were blinded to righteousness and holiness because of their religious structures. They created these religious structures around Abraham ("We have Abraham as our father") the Mosaic Law mammon and lording over men (wanting to be the ones in control). They watered down God's Word by adding their traditions to it or taking away what they did not like and their structures led them after carnal traditions and fleshly desires.

Because the Pharisees were blinded, they could receive no more light from the Word of God.

And when the Word of God is not able to have any place in you, it is because God does not have your heart. “He that is of God hears God’s Words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

It is no different today for people whose hearts have been captured by carnal traditions, which lead people after fleshly lusts. They will hate everyone who brings new light contrary to their religious structures:

“But if our gospel is hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them” (2 Cor. 4:3,4).

Satan and the powers of darkness blind the minds of all who receive their lies (wrapped up to look like truth).

Axehead

Amen!!!

Really?....My previous questions were NOT clear enough? I thought they were pretty pointed.

Scroll up and actually read posts 132, 134, 137 and 146.... then please try to answer each one directly, without obfuscation, or strawmen, or side tracking.
Thanks

A quick perusal of #132 shows that I indeed answered in #133. Maybe you should go over your own list. Of course I don't promise that I will answer as you wish!!!

 

[brother dave]

for the legalist: explain for us poor grace loving sinners ? what is an righteous act, and who may argue with God about what is an righteous act? for it seems clear that none have any accept Christ? my point is that when we are made righteous by God, that is a righteous act. and to continue in His act is the most righteous act we can ever do!
example: the Father lays on us a robe,'' saying'' what i am doing is a righteous act. Not because of you but because of My Sons love for you! and because you believe in HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT. therefore never forget HIS ACT and always wear the robe in rememberance of HIS WORK ! the most righteous thing we can ever do as men or women is to wear the robe! and never take it off as a testimony to HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT.

righteous works can only come from one who has been MADE Righteous! you can not work to be, you must work from who you have been made!

 

[Butch5]

for the legalist: explain for us poor grace loving sinners ? what is an righteous act, and who may argue with God about what is an righteous act? for it seems clear that none have any accept Christ? my point is that when we are made righteous by God, that is a righteous act. and to continue in His act is the most righteous act we can ever do!
example: the Father lays on us a robe,'' saying'' what i am doing is a righteous act. Not because of you but because of My Sons love for you! and because you believe in HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT. therefore never forget HIS ACT and always wear the robe in rememberance of HIS WORK ! the most righteous thing we can ever do as men or women is to wear the robe! and never take it off as a testimony to HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT.

righteous works can only come from one who has been MADE Righteous! you can not work to be, you must work from who you have been made!

Hi Dave,

No one is made righteous. The Scriptures say that a man's faith is counted as righteousness. Abraham beleived God and it (his faith) was counted as righteousness

 

[Stan]

Human reasoning not supported at all by the bible. We must be approved of God before we are given any authority. If you read the NT you will see that Jesus had 12 close disciples...His inner circle while He was here. Then there was the 70, the 120....but the multitude that were there to crown Him king...He sent away. So there are always different circles.

1Co_11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.


2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Do all overcome in Christ? Do all rule and reign with Him? Do all sit at the table with Abraham Isaac and Jacob???

I suppose in the imagination everyone pictures themselves there....

The inner circle of Christ is His body that are called to be saints. These are learning to walk in the power of the resurrection exactly as Jesus. As He IS so are WE in this world.

Non-responsive to my post, and more obfuscation and avoidance. Yep sounds pretty Pharisaical to me.

for the legalist: explain for us poor grace loving sinners ? what is an righteous act, and who may argue with God about what is an righteous act? for it seems clear that none have any accept Christ? my point is that when we are made righteous by God, that is a righteous act. and to continue in His act is the most righteous act we can ever do!
example: the Father lays on us a robe,'' saying'' what i am doing is a righteous act. Not because of you but because of My Sons love for you! and because you believe in HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT. therefore never forget HIS ACT and always wear the robe in rememberance of HIS WORK ! the most righteous thing we can ever do as men or women is to wear the robe! and never take it off as a testimony to HIS RIGHTEOUS ACT.

righteous works can only come from one who has been MADE Righteous! you can not work to be, you must work from who you have been made!

ALL righteousness comes from Jesus and our righteous acts are when we OBEY Jesus.

A quick perusal of #132 shows that I indeed answered in #133. Maybe you should go over your own list. Of course I don't promise that I will answer as you wish!!!

a quick perusal? So you quickly, quickly looked at it? LOL...what a character. OH well, I tried. Not much I can do with a person who insists he is better than everyone else. I do pray though that God will somehow get through all the self-righteousness you have developed in your life. Although Jesus didn't hold out much hope for all the Pharisees of His day. What was it he called them? Whitened sepulchres!

 

[haz]

Hi dragonfly,

To use the words of Rach in her response to EK, " I found so much I object to in your post, that I don't know where to start really, nor do I have the time to address such a long post."
I too have been guilty of long posts covering multiple points, and I try to avoid doing them. Just a suggestion, but if you could try likewise it might be easier for all here. Thanks.

Having read EK's relpy to your question I note he hasn't really clarified himself on his doctrine of 'perfect' obedience to the law. Yet you agree with him.

Below are some quotes from EK as a reminder to all here.
"If one is not able to bring EVERY thought to be in Christ then that one is not abiding in Christ yet[font=Times New Roman']"
"So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are."[/font]
[font=Times New Roman']"Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ."
"Your elimination of the law as a gauge shows that you espouse lawlessness."[/font]

As we see here EK clearly speaks of perfect obedience to the law of righteousness. EK also states that to sin results in death and shows that such persons were in unbelief.

EK claims we have no immunity to any law, thus including the law of righteousness (aka, law of sin and death).

But scripture confirms we are not under the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9, Rom 10:4). If we're not under this law to determine our righteousness then why judge a Christian's righteousness by works of this law?

What EK is doing is mixing grace with works of the law, which Rom 11:6 says cannot be. EK's gospel is lukewarm, Rev 3:15,16.

How are we saved?
Rom 10:9
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Eph 2:8
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

Both you and EK follow a doctrine very similar to the Adventists, claiming that grace enables us to perfectly obey the law. This contradicts scripture.

 

[brother dave]

Hi Dave,

No one is made righteous. The Scriptures say that a man's faith is counted as righteousness. Abraham beleived God and it (his faith) was counted as righteousness

Rom 3:26


To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
HE said HE MADE the sinner righteous! NOW ? you said no one is MADE righteous? you must be wrong? or are you one who will go in circles? and not admit the truth? and if one could read some greek they would see even clearer to first point i made. which is that if God says it is righteous then who can contend with His righteous act of MAKING the sinner righteous?

forgive my shortness butch, i am trying to make a point that will set many free if they desire to be? and patience is a great strength that i seem to lack at times.

Just and the justifier (
δίκaιον κaὶ δικaιοῦντa)

The sense and yet, often imported into
κaὶ and, is purely gratuitous. It is introduced on dogmatic grounds, and implies a problem in the divine nature itself, namely, to bring God's essential justice into consistency with His merciful restoration of the sinner. On the contrary, the words are coordinate - righteous and making believers righteous. It is of the essence of divine righteousness to bring men into perfect sympathy with itself. Paul's object is not to show how God is vindicated, but how man is made right with the righteous God. Theology may safely leave God to take care for the adjustment of the different sides of His own character. The very highest and strongest reason why God should make men right lies in His own righteousness. Because He is righteous He must hate sin, and the antagonism can be removed only by removing the sin, not by compounding it.

 

[neophyte]

Non-responsive to my post, and more obfuscation and avoidance. Yep sounds pretty Pharisaical to me.



ALL righteousness comes from Jesus and our righteous acts are when we OBEY Jesus.



a quick perusal? So you quickly, quickly looked at it? LOL...what a character. OH well, I tried. Not much I can do with a person who insists he is better than everyone else. I do pray though that God will somehow get through all the self-righteousness you have developed in your life. Although Jesus didn't hold out much hope for all the Pharisees of His day. What was it he called them? Whitened sepulchres!

God is all just and all merciful. During our lives he extends his mercy to us, repeatedly allowing us to repent and turn from sin and thus shields us from the eternal consequences of our sins. But at death his justice demands that we be recompensed on the basis of our relationship to him.
The Lord explains that fairness is not the issue:

When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die. Yet you say, "The way of the Lord is not just." Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die for it; for the iniquity which he has committed he shall die.
Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is lawful and right, he shall save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, "The way of the Lord is not just." O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord God; so turn, and live. (Ez 18:21-32; cf. Mt 20:1-15)​

One needs to understand the gravity of mortal sin. By committing mortal sin a person implicitly rejects God and the entire life of holiness he has led up to that point. By spurning that life he spurns the reward he would have gotten as a result of it. It is his own fault if he dies in a state of alienation from God and his reward.

 

[brother dave]

still? no one can contend with His righteous act of MAKING the sinner Righteous! and until you understand how and why He did this? you can talk about sin all you want! but you dont understand nothing about Gods plan to overcome it, until you understand why HE MADE THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS? you have not been to the cross and done the math of heaven!

He is my holiness! the harlot at His feet is holy? the religious at the table although they may not have her issues they are unholy? holiness is in seeing the Holy One. being conformed into His Image as we Behold HIM! the bronze serpent healed as they beheld. the mystery of true Godliness belongs to us who look to HIM ALONE!

 

[Axehead]

still? no one can contend with His righteous act of MAKING the sinner Righteous! and until you understand how and why He did this? you can talk about sin all you want! but you dont understand nothing about Gods plan to overcome it, until you understand why HE MADE THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS? you have not been to the cross and done the math of heaven!

He is my holiness! the harlot at His feet is holy? the religious at the table although they may not have her issues they are unholy? holiness is in seeing the Holy One. being conformed into His Image as we Behold HIM! the bronze serpent healed as they beheld. the mystery of true Godliness belongs to us who look to HIM ALONE!

Dave,

Yes, you are conformed into His image as you behold Him. How do you behold Him? There is responsibility on our parts, no? Are we conformed into His image without beholding Him? I think from your statement you would say no. Then, could you tell me how you behold Him?

You see, I think you are talking past dragonfly and Episkopos because I see both of you saying similar things. You would surely admit that there is some responsibility on the Believer and that the Believer is not in a passive state, right? No one would argue that He does not make the sinner righteous, but He has also freed the the sinner from sin so that he now has the choice not to sin. That would be called a Saint. A sinner is still a slave to sin and a Saint has been set free from sin. He does not have to sin anymore.

Being freed from sin and having the choice and the power not to sin does not mean "sinlessness".

Do you agree with this:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

If God has not set us free from sin, don't you think it is unfair that we are commanded to NOT let sin reign in our MORTAL body?

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Abraham had righteousness imputed to him but was not spiritually regenerated or had the Spirit of Christ indwelling him. We have not only had righteousness imputed to us, but we have been spiritually regenerated (new life in Christ, new man, dead in Christ and resurrected to newness of life) AND the SPIRIT of GOD indwells the Believer.

Maybe, because we are a new creation and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, God knows something that we don't know but that He wants us to know.


Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

What God knows and He wants us to know is that through His Spirit we can overcome.


That is why God can command us with the following in complete confidence that He is not being unfair.


Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

There is an imputation of righteousness and a walk of righteousness. And this walk is done in Him and by Him.

Act_17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

No one can know about living in Him if they have not died in Christ, first. Otherwise, they are still a slave to sin (as the Scriptures and experience would attest).

Axehead

 

[Rach1370]

We need to make it into God's inner circle so to speak. Most are satisfied to get something from God...so they are happy with the gift...but are still largely ignorant about the Giver.

"We need to make it into God's inner circle"

Thanks for proving my point for me.

"Most are satisfied to get something from God"..."but are still largely ignorant about the Giver"

Darn straight I'm satisfied. His gift is everything...not just some booster, starter pack to get me off on my own. And honestly, how on earth do you feel you can judge someone's understanding of God? Again, you are leaning here on OUR own understandings. A knowledge that comes to us...by what...getting ourselves into his inner circle? The bible says that everything we receive from God is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation and grace is a gift. The continuing sanctification and growth in holiness is a gift. And what we know of him is a gift. All we need to do for all this grace and wonder, is keep our eyes focused firmly on him. Why? How? Because He loves us.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:4 ESV)

No need to get into God's inner circle. While we were still dead in our trespasses, he did all this for us. So right now we have been 'raised up' with Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but 'in the coming ages' we shall be.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:9)

"This is not your own doing"...what's 'this'? It's faith. Even our faith is a gift. People who say 'you don't have enough faith' or 'you need to be doing more'...are trying to put this on us. It's not...it's on God...and that's how we can be secure in it all. Because He is not yet finished with us:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 )

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV)

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18 ESV)

The more we look to Jesus, train our eyes on Him, the more He will 'transform' us. This is how we grow in holiness...through grace through faith. There is no 'getting ourselves into his inner circle'...there is just Jesus, and what he is doing in our lives as we gaze at his glory and grace.

 

[Axehead]

"We need to make it into God's inner circle"

Thanks for proving my point for me.

"Most are satisfied to get something from God"..."but are still largely ignorant about the Giver"

Darn straight I'm satisfied. His gift is everything...not just some booster, starter pack to get me off on my own. And honestly, how on earth do you feel you can judge someone's understanding of God? Again, you are leaning here on OUR own understandings. A knowledge that comes to us...by what...getting ourselves into his inner circle? The bible says that everything we receive from God is a gift. Faith is a gift. Salvation and grace is a gift. The continuing sanctification and growth in holiness is a gift. And what we know of him is a gift. All we need to do for all this grace and wonder, is keep our eyes focused firmly on him. Why? How? Because He loves us.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Ephesians 2:4 ESV)

No need to get into God's inner circle. While we were still dead in our trespasses, he did all this for us. So right now we have been 'raised up' with Christ. Not that we are perfect now, but 'in the coming ages' we shall be.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:9)

"This is not your own doing"...what's 'this'? It's faith. Even our faith is a gift. People who say 'you don't have enough faith' or 'you need to be doing more'...are trying to put this on us. It's not...it's on God...and that's how we can be secure in it all. Because He is not yet finished with us:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10 )

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2 ESV)

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18 ESV)

The more we look to Jesus, train our eyes on Him, the more He will 'transform' us. This is how we grow in holiness...through grace through faith. There is no 'getting ourselves into his inner circle'...there is just Jesus, and what he is doing in our lives as we gaze at his glory and grace.

And then we have the other side of the coin.


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Before I read the rest of your post, I stopped when I got to this,

Having read EK's relpy to your question I note he hasn't really clarified himself on his doctrine of 'perfect' obedience to the law. Yet you agree with him.

because it seems you are determined to attribute a thought to both myself and Ek that neither of us have. If you've read Axehead's threads on 'the law' and 'the sabbath' you will understand that he and we think the same, and it's not what you keep stating - about 'the law'.

I take you back to your question to Ek and others, 'Do you keep the law?' to which Ek replied 'no'. Since then, you have accused him relentlessly of preaching law-keeping, meaning 'the 10 commandments'. Now please hear me, and let this sink deep down into your ears (as Jesus used to say). We are not talking about 'keeping the law'. You are talking about 'keeping the law'. Again let me state: we are not talking about 'keeping the law'.

Because you keep bringing this point up, and because you compare 'law' with 'grace', apparently believing the law has no part to play in our righteousness - we just accept Christ's righteousness and go sinning on our way - because now no sin can be attributed to us because in Christ we are righteous - I am going to make one really big assumption, and that is, that when you quote Paul about us being under grace not 'the law', in a general way at least, you think you understand and espouse Paul's teaching on grace.

Therefore, I would like you read the following verse and answer these two questions:

1) where in it do you see him talking about 'keeping the law' - meaning 'the 10 commandments'?

2) if he is talking about 'keeping the law', which law is it?

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



Many thanks.

Hi Butch,

Hi Dave,

No one is made righteous. The Scriptures say that a man's faith is counted as righteousness. Abraham beleived God and it (his faith) was counted as righteousness.

The reason that a man's faith is counted as righteousness, is that it's God's faith - it's a gift. Believing His word is the result of Him having spoken it (in)to us.

But not only that, Paul states this:

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Lastly, the verse I've just quoted to haz, above, is relevant. The righteousness of God is fulfilled in us.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Rach1370]

And then we have the other side of the coin.


Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Axehead

Please understand, I'm not advocating the "I get to sit back and do nothing but live like I want, 'cause Jesus' got it all" view. As Christians there are obviously things we do...works that are 'prepared in advance' for us to do. But I believe that these things are, for a want of a better word, our fruit. Salvation is ours because of Jesus...because he died, because of his grace, his gift of faith and belief to blind and lost people. Once we have this, once we've received this priceless gift and have a new and transformed heart, we get the desire to live for him, the desire to look to him as we live....because, yes, we love him! It's only this love and focus on him that makes doing any of these works pure. If we do them to just 'get into Gods inner circle' as Epi seems to be suggesting, then the motivation is all wrong, and it becomes works of the law...trying to earn something we've been given by grace, not our own effort.

 

[brother dave]

Dave,

Yes, you are conformed into His image as you behold Him. How do you behold Him? There is responsibility on our parts, no? Are we conformed into His image without beholding Him? I think from your statement you would say no. Then, could you tell me how you behold Him?

You see, I think you are talking past dragonfly and Episkopos because I see both of you saying similar things. You would surely admit that there is some responsibility on the Believer and that the Believer is not in a passive state, right? No one would argue that He does not make the sinner righteous, but He has also freed the the sinner from sin so that he now has the choice not to sin. That would be called a Saint. A sinner is still a slave to sin and a Saint has been set free from sin. He does not have to sin anymore.

Being freed from sin and having the choice and the power not to sin does not mean "sinlessness".

Do you agree with this:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

If God has not set us free from sin, don't you think it is unfair that we are commanded to NOT let sin reign in our MORTAL body?

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Abraham had righteousness imputed to him but was not spiritually regenerated or had the Spirit of Christ indwelling him. We have not only had righteousness imputed to us, but we have been spiritually regenerated (new life in Christ, new man, dead in Christ and resurrected to newness of life) AND the SPIRIT of GOD indwells the Believer.

Maybe, because we are a new creation and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, God knows something that we don't know but that He wants us to know.


Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

What God knows and He wants us to know is that through His Spirit we can overcome.


That is why God can command us with the following in complete confidence that He is not being unfair.


Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

There is an imputation of righteousness and a walk of righteousness. And this walk is done in Him and by Him.

Act_17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

No one can know about living in Him if they have not died in Christ, first. Otherwise, they are still a slave to sin (as the Scriptures and experience would attest).

Axehead

AGAIN! you can NOT truly deal with the sin issue until you understand being made righteous!!! its almost like you guys have a SIN CONSCIENCE? and that is your focus? which by the way is your blindspot

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brother dave,

In light of your post to Axehead, how do you read Romans 6, please?

I ask, because I believe that gives the doctrinal aspect of what Axehead has in mind - vv 16 - 18.

 

[brother dave]

the mind of the legalist always seems to work the same way? God says "here is a free gift" and the legalist always looks for the catch? too proud to see how much they need! they always doubt Gods goodness? "did god really say?"

Hi brother dave,

In light of your post to Axehead, how do you read Romans 6, please?

I ask, because I believe that gives the doctrinal aspect of what Axehead has in mind - vv 16 - 18.

again that scripture and many of the others that they seem to struggle with? are only understood when the GIFT is received! but unwilling to receive they cannot possibly understand the power of the Gift!

one clothed in His righteousness, will understand the power of being clothed! and will always be convicted by the Holy Spirit of that righteousness! sin is no problem for those who believe! only for those still naked is a hiding place sought out

but what hinders is that old man from the tree of knowledge? that seeks to put his judgment in place of Gods? God has said it is righteous to make you and i righteous! now our natural mind hinders us from receiving the wisdom of the cross! at that place THE CROSS all men must become as fools and learn again? renew there minds to Gods Logic!

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brother dave,

It is you who is focusing on sin, now.

What makes you say that anyone (in this case, Axehead) 'struggles with' that scripture? It is such a basic part of the gospel, it has been as surprise to me here on CyB to find Christians who don't think they need to be dead to sin - they just take the righteousness of Christ and carry on as before.

Where do you stand in respect of that school of thought?

(Btw, I'm not arguing about the gift of righteousness, but I don't see how we get it if we do not come to Christ to be freed from sin as well as forgiven for sins, with the whole-hearted intention of leaving sin behind so as to walk in the Spirit.)

 

[brother dave]

this was Pauls point over and over in dealing with those who think they know something? become a fool! the cross is foolish to those who love the other tree! and Paul said i am determined to KNOW NOTHING but Christ crux! he was speaking to those walking in earthly wisdom from the tree of knowledge!!

Hi brother dave,

It is you who is focusing on sin, now.

What makes you say that anyone (in this case, Axehead) 'struggles with' that scripture? It is such a basic part of the gospel, it has been as surprise to me here on CyB to find Christians who don't think they need to be dead to sin - they just take the righteousness of Christ and carry on as before.

Where do you stand in respect of that school of thought?

(Btw, I'm not arguing about the gift of righteousness, but I don't see how we get it if we do not come to Christ to be freed from sin as well as forgiven for sins, with the whole-hearted intention of leaving sin behind so as to walk in the Spirit.)

the letter is for believers who have the Holy Spirit! and the power is in releasing that which was put in us. try believing you have power over sin and you might see that you do? and sorry the power over sin is only found in the power of being made righteous! from that standpoint one can see they have power over sin. seems simple but the enemy hates this truth above all others!

got to go to work, think about it, ask Your Jesus if He is soo good as to make forgiveness the power over that which made it needed? FOR HE IS THE GOD WHO CALLS THE LIGHT OUT OF THE DARKNESS!!! and no man will glory in His presence.

 

[Episkopos]

We live in a sin crazed world and at a time where the church is salvation crazed...a single issue circular reasoning obesession to defend a status. Are you saved? they ask...

It is natural then to see the true nature of the gospel as foreign. People are brainwashed to the point that the reading of one scripture allows one to completely ignore the truth of 2 others. Is the ink of the one verse more valuable than the ink used in others????

Denying basic biblical truths has become a past-time for church goers. It is the latest fad.

I have talked about an "inner circle" and received much opposition for it. That is because I'm not using words that have been indoctrinated into a very carnal grasp of the biblical message.

Consider these messages from the bible... (I know that most here are unable to do so because of their conditioning) I will use contra-distinctions in order to help stimulate a little freedom of thought...

So if there was no one closer to God than others (inner circle) then...

-there would be no race of faith spoken of by Paul
-there would be nothing more to attain and Paul would be chasing "works" by emphasizing this
-there would be no such thing as a distinction to be overcomers
-all that were called would also be chosen
-Jesus would marry everyone He sees...no distinct Bride
-Everone who says he is Christian would be ready to make the same sacrifices
-The Way in Christ would not be so narrow
-no one who prophesies and declares Jesus as "Lord, Lord" could be rejected
-there would be no least and greatest in the kingdom
-there would be only the saved and no elect (of course these are seen as identical)
-In a great house there would only be vessels of honour
-There would be nobody sitting next to Jesus in the kingdom (all would be)
-all would have the exact same requirement (to whom much is given less is required???)
-We would not have to be approved of God (we are the ones approving God?)
-No Christian would be judged
-There would be no system of rewards (this encourages works?)
-there would be nothing to add to our faith and Peter would be preaching a false gospel of works that takes away from "faith alone" (2 Peter 1) (brainwash alert)
-everybody that claims to be a Christian would leave all to follow Jesus
-We would have all things in common
-the world would not be laughing so hard at the unreality of most of modern Christianity
-there would be no heroes of the faith and no special times of "revival"
- there would be no difference between a saint and a sinner....just a different point of view
-all would rule over the same amount of cities (populated by animals or angels???)

-Jesus would have explained the same truth to everybody and not just a small following

Hi Episkopos,

Please could you do a bit of exposition on the NT Greek word which has been translated perfect in the KJV, but which more accurately means complete? Heb 10:14

Spiritual blindness will never be overcome by Greek word studies...scripture listings...or pleas to reason. Most readers on forums are behaving in a very predictable pattern. They are simply looking for "weapons" to use against those who seek to wake them up. So if you short-circuit their reasoning in one thread...they will just remember to try hitting you harder later in another thread. It is the spirit of Cain. Do they realize they have it? No.

Hi Episkopos,

Please could you do a bit of exposition on the NT Greek word which has been translated perfect in the KJV, but which more accurately means complete? Heb 10:14

Spiritual blindness will never be overcome by Greek word studies...scripture listings...or pleas to reason. Most readers on forums are behaving in a very predictable pattern. They are simply looking for "weapons" to use against those who seek to wake them up. So if you short-circuit their reasoning in one thread...they will just remember to try hitting you harder later in another thread. It is the spirit of Cain. Do they realize they have it? No.