Apokatastasis in the Bible

[Episkopos]

St. SteVen said:

I would posit that returning to God's eternal order would include his relationship to humankind.​

Yes...but through the process of weeding out sin and those who love sin more than the truth.

Wasn't the eternal order of things upset in the Fall of humankind? (and what preceded it, I suppose. i.e. Lucifer et all)​

On the contrary, my good fellow.
Without the Fall, what is to be restored?

And if it is NOT restored to its original state, has it really been restored?

Peace and harmony will be restored. The Fall was necessary to weed out the ones who hate peace and harmony.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus also was raised on a pole. And offered salvation to everyone.

On a pole? (SDA or JW?) Never mind. Let's stay on topic.

Jesus said he will DRAW all people to himself.
Draw = drag, draw, pull, persuade
Active, NOT passive.

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, Christ died for everyone

But it does not mean everyone will get a "get out of hell" free card.

God will not force people to receive him, and he will not over rule the free will choice of people to reject him


Remember in John 3, Jesus said as Moses lifted the serpent. The children of Israel were getting bit by snakes. and they were as much as Dead. God through Moses offered salvation to all. The snake on the pole was enough to save all the people there. But God did not force people to look up. Those who did were saved. Those who did not died.

Jesus also was raised on a pole. And offered salvation to everyone. But in the same token. He will not force us to look at him and live.

those that do will live (be born again) through faith. Those who do not will die, because they did not believe, and remain condemned

Universalism is false

You are in error to think that only the elect are saved. Who will they rule over? According to the Bible the righteous. But here the many who have been indoctrinated into a religious ideology will deny that any are righteous but themselves. Can you say...Phariseeism???

 

[St. SteVen]

It does not say he grabs him and pulls him kicking and screaming..

C. S. Lewis testifies that is how he came to the Lord. "... kicking and screaming."

 

[Episkopos]

On a pole? (SDA or JW?) Never mind. Let's stay on topic.

Jesus said he will DRAW all people to himself.
Draw = drag, draw, pull, persuade
Active, NOT passive.

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

People of every nation, tribe and tongue. That is a general statement...not meant to include every individual.

Balance is the most difficult thing for a temporal mind to consider. People will ALWAYS go from one extreme to the other. At least until more wisdom is added in.

So people will shift from either ONLY the elect being saved...which is unbiblical...or else...God saves the wicked as well as the just (the rapist as well as the one who is raped...the rich and the poor...etc.) ..which is equally false.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes...but through the process of weeding out sin and those who love sin more than the truth.

Excellent discussion, thanks again.
This is where we are at odds in our views.

I say, "Yes!" to weeding out sin, but "No!" to weeding out sinners.
Weeding reminds me of a comment I heard yesterday, (thanks again to @Chadrho )
That our sinful desires are welded to us. (not weeded - LOL)
It will be painful to separate us from this. But the great physician is caable of such restoration.

 

[Episkopos]

C. S. Lewis testifies that is how he came to the Lord. "... kicking and screaming."

Yes, the love of Christ constrains us. But this kind of discipline is towards His people. Those whom He loves He chastens and rebukes. But God goes easy on the destitute, the poor, the suffering...etc. God is far more merciful than those who claim to be "saved".

So much religion.

 

[St. SteVen]

People of every nation, tribe and tongue. That is a general statement...not meant to include every individual.

Doesn't this assume that every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity?
From my perspective, that's where the argument falls apart.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

On a pole? (SDA or JW?) Never mind. Let's stay on topic.

So lets ignore the cross?

Jesus said he will DRAW all people to himself.
Draw = drag, draw, pull, persuade
Active, NOT passive.

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Does that mean everyone will respond and say yes lord. I have faith save me?

 

[St. SteVen]

Peace and harmony will be restored. The Fall was necessary to weed out the ones who hate peace and harmony.

How did we score on that one? Seems we lost, two to zero.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are in error to think that only the elect are saved. Who will they rule over? According to the Bible the righteous. But here the many who have been indoctrinated into a religious ideology will deny that any are righteous but themselves. Can you say...Phariseeism???

Your in error to think anyone who does not recieve the gospel and trust it will be saved.

Your the one indoctrinated. your the pharisee who pumps your chest. Not me

 

[Episkopos]

Excellent discussion, thanks again.
This is where we are at odds in our views.

But you gracious in your points. Thanks for that!

I say, "Yes!" to weeding out sin, but "No!" to weeding out sinners.

You have a point where the elect are concerned...even the righteous. But God also hardens the hearts of some..giving them over to do evil...more and more. Not every story has a happy ending. The world is a big place. And God's judgments are manifold.

Weeding reminds me of a comment I heard yesterday, (thanks again to @Chadrho )
That our sinful desires are welded to us. (not weeded - LOL)
It will be painful to separate us from this. But the great physician is caable of such restoration.

For those who are meant to be saved...yes. God will do His utmost to save as many as possible.

But you can't throw away all the warnings as being mere bluffs. The fear of the Lord causes us to amend our ways. Without penalties...there is no seriousness to the warnings.

So we see there is mercy AND truth.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
On a pole? (SDA or JW?) Never mind. Let's stay on topic.

So lets ignore the cross?

Uh... you said "pole", not cross.

 

[Episkopos]

Doesn't this assume that every individual in every nation, tribe and tongue has had the opportunity?
From my perspective, that's where the argument falls apart.

What opportunity. You would have to believe that some people are born without a conscience. We are ALL created in God's image. Don't react against the fundamentalists who consign everybody to hell.

God saves the righteous...the weak, the poor, the meek, the suffering. God is merciful. And the saints will rule over them in the next age...according to the gospel.

 

[St. SteVen]

Does that mean everyone will respond and say yes lord. I have faith save me?

No, it means there's no need to. Not about us, it never was.

 

[Episkopos]

Let's not be dogmatic by going to extremes.

The Bible seemingly backs up BOTH exclusiveness AND universalism. But in each case, half the Bible has to be ignored.

And there is a place for both. In the holy city, we see ONLY the elect. This is where Calvinism can work.

But there are also the nations to consider. Here we see the mercy of God making a place for the meek of the earth...from every tribe, religion, tongue...etc. God has mercy on whoever He wills.

 

[St. SteVen]

God can restore all things and not save those who willingly reject him.

All things are NOT restored if ANY of humankind are left out.
Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
What will God do with his "enemies"? Something LESS than he expects from us?

They are not required to be restored for all things to be restored. it is why they are cast out..

This aligns with the New Age philoshophy/religion that worships the earth. (more important than the inhabitants)

 

[CadyandZoe]

I would posit that returning to God's eternal order would include his relationship to humankind.
Wasn't the eternal order of things upset in the Fall of humankind? (and what preceded it, I suppose. i.e. Lucifer et all)

Who said that God was returning to his eternal order? Clearly he isn't.

 

[Episkopos]

All things are NOT restored if ANY of humankind are left out.
Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
What will God do with his "enemies"? Something LESS than he expects from us?

This aligns with the New Age philoshophy/religion that worships the earth. (more important than the inhabitants)

Vengeance is not ours to mete out. That is God's domain. God indeed loves His enemies. He gives us many opportunities to repent. But His justice demands that the wilful sinners be condemned. Otherwise we should all indulge ourselves in this life...there is no point in learning to eschew evil.

I see that any extremist view is harmful to the soul.

 

[St. SteVen]

Balance is the most difficult thing for a temporal mind to consider. People will ALWAYS go from one extreme to the other. At least until more wisdom is added in.

Even the Apostle Paul struggled with this.

Romans 7:22-24 NIV
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war
against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner
of the law of sin at work within me.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me
from this body that is subject to death?