One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[rwb]

Sure I do I just have a different interpretation of it than you but I quoted what Jesus Himself said. Jesus also says that the judgement happens when He comes back and that is after the millennium.

I agree Marty! Since this earth and all who are left on it shall be burned up when Christ comes the second time, there clearly cannot be another one thousand years of time for this earth after the second, and only coming of Christ again. Therefore, the millennial age John writes "a thousand years" symbolically represents TIME given the Church on earth during this age of the Gospel to build the spiritual Kingdom of God. And when this symbolic time ends, Christ shall return to gather together His saints (living & dead), and to send down fire from heaven to burn up whoever is still alive on this earth. Then all of humanity shall be called before the GWTJ to receive reward or damnation.

 

[rwb]

Oh No not at all. I'm saying that the rapture can't happen post trib because those at the end of the tribulation keep mortal bodies.
There is a lot of confusion on the subjects in this thread. But it sure is interesting.

Yes, but those who remain in mortal bodies shall be utterly destroyed not only by the fire that shall come down upon them physically, but they shall also have part in the lake of fire that is the second death. Those resurrected to physical life and all of faith in Christ (living & dead) who are caught up to be with the Lord will become immortal body with eternal spirit and incorruptible.

 

[rwb]

You want the distinction between the church and tribulation saints stated in one verse? It doesn't work like that, you need to understand the broader context of scripture altogether.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

That is the church.

Rev 20 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
That is the tribulation saints.

I agree, we do need to understand the whole context, but you've taken this verse out of context. When this passage is read in context, we find Paul giving us assurance that those who have already died in Christ are not lost. Paul says they will come back with Christ from heaven, because that is where they are since Christ came and saved them from death. Christ took them to heaven with Him when He ascended to the Father in heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

The spirit (soul) of these dead saints are presently in heaven while their physical bodies after death are in the grave. Paul continues to give us assurance regarding the physically dead saints, telling us that their dead bodies shall be resurrected FIRST. That means they will be resurrected before those still alive when Christ comes again. It is only "the dead bodies" that must be resurrected to life again, because the living saints don't need to be resurrected, they have not physically died. However the living shall be caught up (not resurrected) and changed WITH those who have died, and ALL shall be made immortal and incorruptible TOGETHER, at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. They will remain there until the wrath of God by fire has burned up this earth and everything left alive on it.

We don't have hope fixed on this earth, we look for the new heavens and a new earth where righteousness only shall dwell.

2 Peter 3:12-13 (KJV) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This understanding finds confirmation in Rev 20, where John writes of martyred saints (spirit souls) in heaven after physical death. They are in heaven because in life, or during this time symbolized a thousand years they were faithful unto death having while physically alive lived and reigned with Christ. This is not time that shall come for them. This is time that is already past for them.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Yes, these are tribulation saints, having remained faithful unto death proves that in life (time, a thousand years) they suffered "great tribulation", so that in death they ascended to heaven spiritually alive or as John writes "souls of them.....". To be called a "soul" means to have life. On earth physical life, and in heaven spiritual life = a living soul.

 

[rwb]

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Obviously for numbers of people like the sands on the seashore you need lots of reproduction. Unless you have another explanation.

Yes, when this time symbolized "the thousand years" expires, Satan shall be loosed to gather together his minions from throughout the earth for one final attempt at keeping the spiritual Kingdom of God from being completed. Then the last trumpet shall sound that Christ has come again, all the saints shall be raptured with Him in the air and then fire from God out of heaven shall devour them all.

Revelation 20:9-10 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[rwb]

Just read those verses and they do not contradict a future millennium.
If the millennium already happened then we would be in eternity and the new Jerusalem as described at the end of Revelation.
Or perhaps you're amiennial?

Your doctrinal position on eschatology does cause contradiction to the Word of God. The only eschatological position that does not force contradiction is Amillennialism. How can there be another one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ comes again since this earth, according to Scripture, shall be utterly burned up?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Putting arguments about the pre-trib rapture aside, there is one big reason why the rapture can not be post-trib.

The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.

As put by Marks: If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.
Thoughts?

Mid-Trib view: Rapture happens @ 7th trumpet, (all the dead in Christ and those who are alive). The dead in Hades are resurrected to suffer the 7 Bowls of God's wrath along with those on earth who are alive and have the Mark of the Beast.
What's missing? Many who are not saved at the Rapture still do not have the Mark of the Beast. They have been on the fence and especially the remnant Jews that were appointed to be saved ( Romans 11), they all missed the rapture, but when every eye sees Jesus, they will finally believe. These will repopulate the earth. All will become believers.
The Two Witnesses evangelize many, the 144k as well.

A question: Why would Two Witnesses be necessary to evangelize anyone after the Rapture? The Rapture is so well known. Billions just disappear and the world will get it. The books and movies about the Rapture seem to suggest that the world will just be confused about what happened to them, as if they can't make the connection - ridiculous, they will know. So it is a likely scenario that the Church is Raptured exactly when the Two Witnesses are. I mean the world, previous to the resurrection is celebrating their death while they lie in the streets of Jerusalem.
Nobody would be celebrating anything after the Rapture. The Holy Spirit ( Restrainer) is taken out of the way at the same time the Church leaves and so darkness falls on the earth, evil is unrestrained and let loose; so there would not be joyful celebrations or goodness to be found. Love grows cold. And there is a point of time during the 7 Bowls judgments when no one repents, but they turn and curse God.

 

[ewq1938]

Mid-Trib view: Rapture happens @ 7th trumpet

That's post-trib not mid-trib.

 

[Marty fox]

I agree Marty! Since this earth and all who are left on it shall be burned up when Christ comes the second time, there clearly cannot be another one thousand years of time for this earth after the second, and only coming of Christ again. Therefore, the millennial age John writes "a thousand years" symbolically represents TIME given the Church on earth during this age of the Gospel to build the spiritual Kingdom of God. And when this symbolic time ends, Christ shall return to gather together His saints (living & dead), and to send down fire from heaven to burn up whoever is still alive on this earth. Then all of humanity shall be called before the GWTJ to receive reward or damnation.

Yes that is exactly what Revelation says and then backed up by Peter and Jesus Himself

 

[Davy]

I'm not omitting anything.
But where would you apply the sheep and goats judgement? That seems to be where it fits.

Jesus told you...

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That's post-trib not mid-trib.

No, the worst part of the Great Tribulation is the 7 bowls of wrath, even though that might only be up to 75 days, it's still mid-trib/ pre-wrath.

 

[teamventure]

That is the result, on the last day before the eternity. That has nothing to do with being in the Millennium which is for people on this same old Earth. There is nothing in the bible that forbids people with the mark from being ruled over by a rod of iron. It's rebellious people that such a rod is needed! Ruled by the beast, then ruled by Christ...same people.

You totally avoided "Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

Nothing to say about that eh?

No need to address it, ruling in the midst of thine enemies doesn't equal people with the mark entering the kingdom.

 

[teamventure]

Can you prove from the Scriptures there will be a millennial kingdom on this earth after Christ comes again? If you cannot prove this assumption, perhaps you need to re-think "a thousand years" of Rev 20???

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 NIV

 

[teamventure]

Jesus told you...

Matt 25:31-32
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
KJV

Thank you for proving my point. Those scriptures put the sheep and goat judgements right there with the second coming.

 

[teamventure]

Your doctrinal position on eschatology does cause contradiction to the Word of God. The only eschatological position that does not force contradiction is Amillennialism. How can there be another one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ comes again since this earth, according to Scripture, shall be utterly burned up?

Because every time the earth has been judged, God has renovated it. He has the ability being God to do so.
Ammennialism is the furthest fron the truth.

 

[teamventure]

Mid-Trib view: Rapture happens @ 7th trumpet, (all the dead in Christ and those who are alive). The dead in Hades are resurrected to suffer the 7 Bowls of God's wrath along with those on earth who are alive and have the Mark of the Beast.
What's missing? Many who are not saved at the Rapture still do not have the Mark of the Beast. They have been on the fence and especially the remnant Jews that were appointed to be saved ( Romans 11), they all missed the rapture, but when every eye sees Jesus, they will finally believe. These will repopulate the earth. All will become believers.
The Two Witnesses evangelize many, the 144k as well.

A question: Why would Two Witnesses be necessary to evangelize anyone after the Rapture? The Rapture is so well known. Billions just disappear and the world will get it. The books and movies about the Rapture seem to suggest that the world will just be confused about what happened to them, as if they can't make the connection - ridiculous, they will know. So it is a likely scenario that the Church is Raptured exactly when the Two Witnesses are. I mean the world, previous to the resurrection is celebrating their death while they lie in the streets of Jerusalem.
Nobody would be celebrating anything after the Rapture. The Holy Spirit ( Restrainer) is taken out of the way at the same time the Church leaves and so darkness falls on the earth, evil is unrestrained and let loose; so there would not be joyful celebrations or goodness to be found. Love grows cold. And there is a point of time during the 7 Bowls judgments when no one repents, but they turn and curse God.

The two witnesses would be necessary to evangelize after the rapture because the deception will be so deep. There will be those who come to faith in the Lord and those who believe the lie.

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thessalonians 2:11‭-‬12 NIV

 

[ewq1938]

No need to address it, ruling in the midst of thine enemies doesn't equal people with the mark entering the kingdom.

It's the only way to explain there being enemies during his reign. Secondly, no one has supplied anything that bars marked people from being ruled over in the Millennium.

 

[ewq1938]

No, the worst part of the Great Tribulation is the 7 bowls of wrath

They pour after the trib not during it. The 7th trump signals the end of the trib.

 

[teamventure]

It's the only way to explain there being enemies during his reign. Secondly, no one has supplied anything that bars marked people from being ruled over in the Millennium.

No it isn't the only explanation.
As another poster already pointed out, it's generations down the line after a major judgement that people start to rebel.
History repeats itself like with the flood.

I have already posted twice that the marked people go to hell how can you sit here and say that they will one day be willing servants?

 

[ewq1938]

No it isn't the only explanation.
As another poster already pointed out, it's generations down the line after a major judgement that people start to rebel.
History repeats itself like with the flood.

I have already posted twice that the marked people go to hell how can you sit here and say that they will one day be willing servants?

They are enemies and Christ rules in the midst of them. They will go to the LOF but that is AFTER the Millennium ends.

You haven't provided anything but opinion why marked people won't be in the Millennium where Christ rules his enemies with a rod of iron. "willing servants" is also not from the bible about those being ruled over. The rod forces temporary obedience.

 

[teamventure]

They are enemies and Christ rules in the midst of them. They will go to the LOF but that is AFTER the Millennium ends.

You haven't provided anything but opinion why marked people won't be in the Millennium where Christ rules his enemies with a rod of iron. "willing servants" is also not from the bible about those being ruled over. The rod forces temporary obedience.

You haven't provided anything but opinion that marked people will be in the millennium.
He will rule over the nations with a rod of iron, not people who take the mark that assertion makes absolutely no sense and is too ludicrous to need a defense.