Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No where. So why change up the order to fit your bias?Where did He say to read it in the order you prefer to read it in?
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No where. So why change up the order to fit your bias?Where did He say to read it in the order you prefer to read it in?
AGREEI've always loved the following verse, because the description goes out of it's way to stress that the second coming is literal.
Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Zechariah 14:3-4 NIV
Along with this verse:
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 NIV
What does that even mean? Do you think all scripture is plainly stated?None, I take scripture as plainly stated.
You just don't get it. Let me remind you of what you said in the original post:You are just putting me in a Premil box when I'm not even the one who brought it up.
So, your argument here against a post-trib rapture is that it can't be possible if all believers are raptured at the second coming and all unbelievers are killed, leaving "no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth." Right?teamventure said:The rapture can not be post trib because if all the believers were raptured at the time of the second coming, there would be no one left in mortal bodies to live into the 1,000 year reign and re-populate the earth.
As put by Marks: If all the righteous were raptured - translated to the incorruptible - and all the wicked are sent to punishment when the Lord comes, no one would remain in natural flesh having babies, continuing generations as prophesied in the Bible past the second coming.
LOL. There is no bias. I interpret Revelation in light of other scripture and you interpret it in isolation from other scripture, resulting in you interpreting it in such a way that contradicts other scripture.No where. So why change up the order to fit your bias?
So do you agree with my understanding of 2Thess 1 passage?None, I take scripture as plainly stated.
You are just putting me in a Premil box when I'm not even the one who brought it up.
They always take scripture as plainly stated except for when they don't.So do you agree with my understanding of 2Thess 1 passage?
If that doesnt make you an Amill then what are you?
Of course it does.Where does it say that? You are clearly just making assumptions here and not proving anything. Scripture says we will meet Him in the air when He comes. Where does it say we are then taken to the earth? Where does Matthew 25:31-46 say anything about Him coming to the earth? It doesn't. Your beliefs are based on nothing except assumptions and speculation.
When people are resurrected are they not alive? If you are referring to Rev 20:11-15 (I have to guess since you're so vague) then the dead there are not completely dead and unconscious or else how can they give an account of themselves and what they did during their lives? They are dead in the sense of being dead in their sins but the scripture says "the rest of the dead" will be resurrected after the thousand years, so that is what Rev 20:11-15 is depicting. Matthew 25:31-46 is no different. It's a judgment of all people including those who have been resurrected from the dead.Of course it does.
The word nation refers to living people. There are no nations of the dead.
There is no passage that Amil blatantly contradicts. You are just saying that because you have no discernment and don't understand what passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15. Your carnal, childish, non-spiritual way of interpreting scripture simply does not work.That is one passage Amil blatantly contradict.
You seem to make a big deal out of a one-time resurrection, but now you say "generally" the same time. Generally? Huh.What else does "a time is coming..." mean? He didn't say two times are coming when the dead will be raised, right?
Oh, let's just ignore the plain statement made in John 5:28-29 then and focus on whatever passage you want to focus on. LOL. Okay then.
No, you've showed me passages that you are not able to reconcile to this one, however, you've shown absolutely NOTHING that tells us we shouldn't believe that passage - as it was written by God.I showed you two plainly stated passages that your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts, but I guess you would rather be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe while ignoring the rest.
OK, you've left the topic, and now you want to discuss your low opinions of me. That didn't take long!Quoting my comment without context is very childish. You clearly have no interest in being honest and responding to challenges to your view.
I think I know something childish . . . responding to Scripture with ad hominems. It means you can't come up with anything better, or you have no manners, or something, whatever, I'm not interested.Stop being a child.
Lol.They always take scripture as plainly stated except for when they don't.
I think that make a lot more sense than changing it to two (or more) completely different times that are coming when the dead are raised as Premil does. Eh? Yeah, I think so.You seem to make a big deal out of a one-time resurrection, but now you say "generally" the same time. Generally? Huh.
That is what you do with John 5:28-29 and Revelation 1:5-6, but you are not being honest about that. You'd rather just ignore plainly stated passages like those and be selective in which plainly stated passages you believe in.Just the same . . .
Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.
Your interpretation of this passage contradicts plainly stated passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29. Do you not care about that? My belief takes all of these passages into account and reconciles them all together. Does yours? If so, how?Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.
Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.
Because interpreting it literally contradicts other passages. I've made that clear, so why are you asking me this? You clearly could not care less of your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 contradicts other scripture or not. In your mind Revelation 20:1-6 trumps all other scripture. Any scripture that doesn't agree with your interpretation of that passage can just be ignored in your mind.Good. Then you can explain to me why you will not believe this prophecy as written.
Yes, I am. Very easily. I have done so many times. Scripture could not possibly be more clear that Jesus began reigning after His resurrection. Do you interpret Revelation 20:1-6 accordingly? No, you do not. Why not? You tell me. Scripture describes Jesus's resurrection itself as being the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and how we have part in His resurrection spiritually (Eph 2:4-6, Romans 6, Col 2:12-13, etc.). Do you take that into account when interpreting Rev 20:1-6? Clearly not. Scripture says His followers were made priests long ago already (Rev 1:5-6). Do you take that into account when interpreting Rev 20:1-6? Clearly not. And on it goes.No, you've showed me passages that you are not able to reconcile to this one,
That is obviously a lie. I have shown John 5:28-29 and Revelation 1:5-6 today and many other passages at other times. How does that equate to "NOTHING"? I'm sorry that you think other scripture besides Revelation 20:1-6 is "NOTHING".however, you've shown absolutely NOTHING that tells us we shouldn't believe that passage - as it was written by God.
Stop your childish rhetoric already and tell me how you interpret these passages:You think that the one can't be true because of how you understand the other. And even still you backpedal . . . generally speaking.
I have responded with scripture and you choose to ignore that. You clearly want no part of passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29 because you know you can't reconcile passages like those with your interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6.I think I know something childish . . . responding to Scripture with ad hominems. It means you can't come up with anything better, or you have no manners, or something, whatever, I'm not interested.
Start being honest with the scriptures I present instead of only wanting to address the scriptures you present and then that won't happen.OK, you've left the topic, and now you want to discuss your low opinions of me. That didn't take long!
You talk constantly about interpreting a passage as plainly stated, but then you won't do that with passages like Revelation 1:5-6 and John 5:28-29. Why should anyone take you seriously when you are not consistent with your approach? Your approach is childish and inconsistent. That is clear for all to see.Challenges to my view? I say . . . The Bible is true. Even that part.
Maybe your understanding of this passage misses the mark.Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.
Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.
The passage looks literal to me.
Amil requires you disbelieve the plain statements of narrative prophecy. Plain and simple.
Revelation 20:1-6 KJV
1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This is narrative prophecy, and will be fulfilled exactly as written.
Nothing in Scripture denies that is so. Either you believe this passage, or you do not.
Much love!
You added the word singular to the text. That contradicts the point that in Matthew 27 many did come out of their graves. So you then have to call that the only singular hour as well. That means that was the only resurrection. None after that one.Jesus indicated that there is a singular time/hour when ALL of the dead will be resurrected.
Well being punished is one thing. That is not complicated. Saying it means they are resurrected the same moment they are killed complicates and contradicts the point of the verse.Nothing complicated about the believers glorification and the ungodly receiving eternal punishment on the same day. Premills actually disregard such a plainly stated truth.
3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish]love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing. 4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
11 With this in view, we constantly pray for you, that our God will count you worthy of your calling [to faith] and with [His] power fulfill every desire for goodness, and complete [your] every work of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you [by what you do], and you in Him, according to the [precious] grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
What complicated ideas are you going to come up with that butchers that text?