The final harvest?

[jeffweeder]

I can't disagree with your soteriology--just your eschatology, and only because of 2 things, which makes me a Premillennial.
1) The promises God promised Abraham seem to require fulfillment in the present fallen age, and not in the eternal age of complete restoration.
2) Israel has literally been restored in modern times as a nation.

For Israel to be restored, then they would have too except Jesus Christ....But they haven't. This is a lie therefore.

Did Abraham really foresee it ultimately taking place in this present age?

Heb 12
18 For you have not come [as did the Israelites in the wilderness] to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to gloom and darkness and a raging windstorm, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and a sound of words [such that] those who heard it begged that nothing more be said to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “If even a wild animal touches the mountain, it will be stoned [to death].” 21 In fact, so terrifying was the sight, that Moses said, “I am filled with fear and trembling.”

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].



Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land, as in a strange land, living in tents [as nomads] with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise.

10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has foundations, [an eternal, heavenly city] whose architect and builder is God.


It appears Abraham looked for the heavenly age fulfillment and not the fallen age.



Thank you for your kind words, Randy.

 

[rwb]

2nd, I don't know why NT restoration must be equated with *perfect restoration* as you do? If material restoration worked for Israel in the OT era, it can work in the NT era, as well. And if in the Millennial Age, it is the same old sinful age, with the caveat that Satan has been bound, then we can still have a material restoration such as exists now for nations who go through revival.

Of course, if you begin with an Amillennial mindset, this obviously won't work for you. Granted.

As Jeff has pointed out if the restoration is not perfect and I might add permanent it would be a vicious cycle as from the beginning. This world after this so-called restoration would last only as long as preceded by obedience. Just as it was for Israel. There shall never be perfect obedience in fallen world, destined for destruction. We're not talking about perfection during time, symbolized a thousand years. Perfection cannot come on this earth in time, because time given this earth has an end. When the seventh angel begins to sound this time, symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

It is written when Christ comes again the heavens and earth shall be burned up, but after the destined destruction of all that is material, we believers, according to His promise, look for a new heavens and a new earth, where there shall only be righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

FWIW, Amils don't typically begin with an Amillennial mindset as you imagine. Many, if not most of us began as Premillennialists, but then saw the many contradictions this doctrinal position forces into the Word of God. Most of us embraced Amillennialism after studying the Bible for ourselves, and without knowing this doctrine, Amil, is the only eschatological doctrine that can be reconciled with the whole of Scripture without forcing contradiction.

Ask yourself one question, why would God bring perfect restoration to this world knowing that this earth and everything living on it will not be eternal, being destined to destruction? Answer, He won't!

 

[rwb]

Your view of a *material* resurrection would seem to upend your entire argument against the material nature of restoration. If God restored Israel in the OT era in a "material" way, why can't that happen *before* the New Earth?

Any way you look at it, that "Kingdom," ie the "New Earth," is not yet "here!" The way I see it, the only thing that is now "here," with respect to God's Kingdom, is Salvation. And that is not the sense in which Jesus proclaimed his Kingdom was coming, in my view.

God will not bring restoration to this world because this world and all that is in it shall be utterly burned up! I agree, the new earth is not yet here. It won't be here until this first heaven and earth passes away, after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complelte. How do you reconcile your belief regarding the Kingdom of God that shall be here materially with Christ telling us the Kingdom of God is within you? The Kingdom of God was coming before Christ came. But when He came, He came with the Kingdom, and once again the way we enter into this Kingdom that is not physical/material (meat & drink), but righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Randy Kluth]

For Israel to be restored, then they would have too except Jesus Christ....But they haven't. This is a lie therefore.

Did Abraham really foresee it ultimately taking place in this present age?

Heb 12
18 For you have not come [as did the Israelites in the wilderness] to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to gloom and darkness and a raging windstorm, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and a sound of words [such that] those who heard it begged that nothing more be said to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “If even a wild animal touches the mountain, it will be stoned [to death].” 21 In fact, so terrifying was the sight, that Moses said, “I am filled with fear and trembling.”

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].



Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land, as in a strange land, living in tents [as nomads] with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise.

10 For he was [waiting expectantly and confidently] looking forward to the city which has foundations, [an eternal, heavenly city] whose architect and builder is God.


It appears Abraham looked for the heavenly age fulfillment and not the fallen age.



Thank you for your kind words, Randy.

You're welcome. I perceive you to be a good Christian. I have no wish to let disagreements become a non-edifying thing. Actually, there's only a relative few who can argue substantial differences without losing their cool. I hope that changes because I really enjoy these discussions. Even in disagreement I learn things.

I agree that Israel as a nation has never embraced Christianity as, for example, the UK has or even the USA did some years back. However, even those resistant to the Gospel, like the Apostle Paul, can make a turn around if they are knocked off their horse by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As Jeff has pointed out if the restoration is not perfect and I might add permanent it would be a vicious cycle as from the beginning. This world after this so-called restoration would last only as long as preceded by obedience. Just as it was for Israel. There shall never be perfect obedience in fallen world, destined for destruction. We're not talking about perfection during time, symbolized a thousand years. Perfection cannot come on this earth in time, because time given this earth has an end. When the seventh angel begins to sound this time, symbolized a thousand years shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

It is written when Christ comes again the heavens and earth shall be burned up, but after the destined destruction of all that is material, we believers, according to His promise, look for a new heavens and a new earth, where there shall only be righteousness.

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

FWIW, Amils don't typically begin with an Amillennial mindset as you imagine. Many, if not most of us began as Premillennialists, but then saw the many contradictions this doctrinal position forces into the Word of God. Most of us embraced Amillennialism after studying the Bible for ourselves, and without knowing this doctrine, Amil, is the only eschatological doctrine that can be reconciled with the whole of Scripture without forcing contradiction.

Ask yourself one question, why would God bring perfect restoration to this world knowing that this earth and everything living on it will not be eternal, being destined to destruction? Answer, He won't!

Well, I'll attempt an answer whether it's satisfying or not. I think the world will continue for another thousand years to complete the things God promised Abraham for the present state of the world. If we dial ahead straight into the Eternal Kingdom, the Kingdom will not have been realized on earth, and the full display of the Gospel's power of Salvation will not be seen as God has intended for it to be seen.

I know that Amillennialists see Satan as already bound, but as a Premillennialist I see that as a contradiction, since Paul did not see Satan as bound. At least that's the way I read Paul on the subject. And Peter sees Satan on the prowl like a lion hunting its prey. That's not "bound" in my opinion!

Anyway, I think the New Age of the Millennium may be the culmination of God's wish to bring the world to a place where His people, still un-glorified, can act as children of God without the hindrance of Satan. We don't know what that might look like, as Premillennialists. But we do believe it will be somewhere between the perfect New Creation and the current sinful World.

Incidentally, I was raised in an Amillennial church, but converted to Premillennialism, 1st by the influence of friends and then by the force of their arguments. I would prefer to take Scriptures literally, but can understand that not all of them are to be taken as such. In this case I see no reason not to take the Millennium literally. And it fits my sense that the promises of God have not yet been fulfilled on the mortal earth, as God promised it to Abraham.

So the question for me is, Did God promise Abraham things that must be fulfilled on the current mortal earth, or can they be fully fulfilled in the New Creation in all of its perfection? The thought occurs to me that if we skip this step we may be doing what Jesus warned against--judging too quickly and not allowing all of the wheat to grow up. We mustn't have the tares cut down too quickly lest we discover the wheat got cut down instead!

Keep in mind that the predominant view throughout Christian history has been Amill. So your conversion from Premill to Amill is so easily explained as a capitulation to historic views, as opposed to a conscientious conversion. But in your case I trust your conversion was conscientious. And that's the best I can hope for both of us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

God will not bring restoration to this world because this world and all that is in it shall be utterly burned up! I agree, the new earth is not yet here. It won't be here until this first heaven and earth passes away, after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complelte. How do you reconcile your belief regarding the Kingdom of God that shall be here materially with Christ telling us the Kingdom of God is within you? The Kingdom of God was coming before Christ came. But when He came, He came with the Kingdom, and once again the way we enter into this Kingdom that is not physical/material (meat & drink), but righteousness, and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

I don't really have to reconcile the view that the Kingdom is here in a sense and within us. I think Jesus identified Salvation as a form of the Kingdom that is already here, but only in the spiritual and unrealized sense. So we at least partly agree.

When Jesus spoke of the Kingdom as coming at his 2nd Coming it is clear that he's talking about the fact the Kingdom, though here in a sense, has not yet been realized. And we both seem to agree on that.

So it's really a language issue. I personally think it's important to look forward to the coming Kingdom, and recognize that the Kingdom is, in a sense, within us in the form of Salvation. But the Scriptures clearly state that Jesus is holding the title in heaven, while we live out the evidence that we already have Eternal Life living inside of us.

I will add this, that the argument the earth will be totally burned up at the 2nd Coming doesn't wash with me because of God's promise that the earth is everlasting. There are a good number of verses to cite in this regard.

So for me, the great conflagration that happens in the time around Christ's return is probably a world-wide nuclear war, with massive fires and elemental destruction. The way the fireball or mushroom cloud shoots up into the sky it can be said that even the sky appears to be on fire, burning up the oxygen.

Many major judgments in the Bible are described by the Prophets in hyperbolic terms, to show how comprehensive the judgment would be within the particular area being judged--universal terms apply to the particular societies being judged.

Anyway, this is another argument that could go either way for me. So I do respect the argument, but see some possible holes in it. Take care....

 

[rwb]

Anyway, I think the New Age of the Millennium may be the culmination of God's wish to bring the world to a place where His people, still un-glorified, can act as children of God without the hindrance of Satan. We don't know what that might look like, as Premillennialists. But we do believe it will be somewhere between the perfect New Creation and the current sinful World.

Putting aside the reason's I believe Satan was bound by the cross and resurrection, could you point to pertinent verses of Scripture that show us this in-between age you believe shall come? I see only two ages in Scripture for this earth, the age from creation to the first advent of Christ, and this age we have been in since Christ came. I realize Premillennialists believe that much of the prophesy of Old has not yet been fulfilled, but this makes no sense to me because the prophets foretell of a time/age/day to come, "the Day of the Lord" when all things written of Him would be fulfilled. So, attempting to push fulfillment forward to one thousand literal years in the future, after this current age on this earth is illogical to me.

As I read your reply above it is not what you've biblically proven, but rather what you "think". If it were truly God's wish to bring the earth to a place without being hindered by Satan, why is this earth and everything left alive on it be destined to destruction by fire? For me, doctrine must be logical, and if it is not then there is something wrong with my understanding of doctrine.

Keep in mind that the predominant view throughout Christian history has been Amill. So your conversion from Premill to Amill is so easily explained as a capitulation to historic views, as opposed to a conscientious conversion. But in your case I trust your conversion was conscientious. And that's the best I can hope for both of us.

I was not taught Amil. I began to realize I am Amil after learning the doctrine of Amil. I found I was Amil before I knew what it was! I could not reconcile the many contradictions Premillennialism forces into Scripture. That's why I rejected that doctrine long before understanding the doctrine of Amil. The Word of God cannot contradict! If I find contradiction it's because I have not rightly understood what sayeth the Scripture.

 

[rwb]

I will add this, that the argument the earth will be totally burned up at the 2nd Coming doesn't wash with me because of God's promise that the earth is everlasting. There are a good number of verses to cite in this regard.

How do you reconcile the verses that clearly speak of this earth and everything on it shall be burned up with the FACT the earth shall be forever? Premil doesn't reconcile this! The only way this can be reconciled is in understanding the earth that shall be everlasting is not this first earth that shall pass away. But is the new earth that shall be after this first earth is passed away. And according to Scripture that passing away comes from fire that comes down out of heaven from God.

Revelation 21:1 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Putting aside the reason's I believe Satan was bound by the cross and resurrection, could you point to pertinent verses of Scripture that show us this in-between age you believe shall come? I see only two ages in Scripture for this earth, the age from creation to the first advent of Christ, and this age we have been in since Christ came. I realize Premillennialists believe that much of the prophesy of Old has not yet been fulfilled, but this makes no sense to me because the prophets foretell of a time/age/day to come, "the Day of the Lord" when all things written of Him would be fulfilled. So, attempting to push fulfillment forward to one thousand literal years in the future, after this current age on this earth is illogical to me.

As I read your reply above it is not what you've biblically proven, but rather what you "think". If it were truly God's wish to bring the earth to a place without being hindered by Satan, why is this earth and everything left alive on it be destined to destruction by fire? For me, doctrine must be logical, and if it is not then there is something wrong with my understanding of doctrine.


I was not taught Amil. I began to realize I am Amil after learning the doctrine of Amil. I found I was Amil before I knew what it was! I could not reconcile the many contradictions Premillennialism forces into Scripture. That's why I rejected that doctrine long before understanding the doctrine of Amil. The Word of God cannot contradict! If I find contradiction it's because I have not rightly understood what sayeth the Scripture.

Yes, I can see that. I also found it easy to believe Amil well before I realized there was an alternative view--I was simply raised in Amil and it seemed much simpler than the Premil I learned about later. It's quite easy to believe that when Christ comes back that will be the end of it--no more stages of development--no more steps for history to get where God wants it to be. Christ comes and all is realized.

For me, Premil has also posed some problems. The fact is, it *is* taught in the Scriptures apparently, whether I like it or not. It is taught in Rev 20, and the only way I can get around it is by interpreting it as symbolic of today, or of the present age. And so the best proof I have of Premil is the fact it is there in Rev 20.

Is it "logical?" I can't prove it, as you say, but it fits logically into my eschatology as a way of combining with the OT promise to Abraham to save Israel and to save many nations. So many are resistant to the idea of a political salvation, but that is how the language figures for me. And it is also how it was fulfilled in the past.

Israel became a *nation* of God, and not just a nation with a small remnant of true believers. The majority confessed the one true God and the majority followed His ways.

Whether they are all saved for eternity is an individual matter yes, but the idea that entire nations can confess the one true God and attempt observance of His laws was there in ancient Israel and has been there in NT nations who converted, constitutionally, to Christianity. Of course, there were Christian countries well before they even had constitutions. When the vast majority of a country say "yes" to the Christian religion, that alone fulfills what God wanted of countries, to organize a social order that depended upon a covenant relationship with God.

Political reform, therefore, was as important to God as individual Salvation. God wished not just for individuals to get Saved, but also for a culture of Christianity to enable people to live out a Christian life. So this is what was promised and what has not yet been fulfilled in the promises God made to Abraham. And I don't think you can ignore the political elements I'm speaking of in the OT Prophets. "They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks."

 

[07-07-07]

What do you think indicates in our day this harvest is coming to completion?

The signs are indicating that Israel's 70th week spoken of by the prophet Daniel is quickly approaching as is the unveiling of anti-christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The signs are indicating that Israel's 70th week spoken of by the prophet Daniel is quickly approaching as is the unveiling of anti-christ.

That's really a matter of interpretation. Some, like myself, believe the 70th Week of Daniel was historically fulfilled in the earthly ministry of Christ, followed by the 70 AD destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Others, like yourself, believe in a future 70th Week of Daniel, cut off from the previous 69 Weeks by approx. 2000 years. I don't find that feasible, but oh well!

That being said, I was really looking at historical realities presently confirming that the end-time "Harvest," spoken of by Christ, is actually being fulfilled in our own day. I'm just setting difficult interpretations of Bible passages aside, if you will?

 

[Gottservant]

Jesus said world history is like an agricultural year,

[...]

What do you think indicates in our day this harvest is coming to completion?

People are becoming weak minded, even more futile in their thinking than they had been.

At some point, people are just going to give in to weakness.

The Holy Spirit will hold them at a distance, but we must be ready to speak the words of life (as Jesus gave us).

 

[Randy Kluth]

People are becoming weak minded, even more futile in their thinking than they had been.

At some point, people are just going to give in to weakness.

The Holy Spirit will hold them at a distance, but we must be ready to speak the words of life (as Jesus gave us).

I do think the "law of thermodynamics" takes hold here. Over time, sinful Man falls farther and farther away into degeneration. God's redemptive word may pick society up, but over time people tend to capitulate to the lowest common denominator. That's when civilizations fall.

But you're right. There's no sense in giving up as long as people exist who will respond to God's perennial outreach of Salvation.

 

[Gottservant]

I do think the "law of thermodynamics" takes hold here. Over time, sinful Man falls farther and farther away into degeneration. God's redemptive word may pick society up, but over time people tend to capitulate to the lowest common denominator. That's when civilizations fall.

But you're right. There's no sense in giving up as long as people exist who will respond to God's perennial outreach of Salvation.

I'm just glad the Holy Spirit will hold them at bay - they can learn to follow God at a distance, thanks very much!

But you are right, unless there is redemptive inspiration, people capitulate to the lowest common denominator - we need enough oil for ourselves, or our lamps won't give light at all!

 

[rwb]

Yes, I can see that. I also found it easy to believe Amil well before I realized there was an alternative view--I was simply raised in Amil and it seemed much simpler than the Premil I learned about later.

As I've said I wasn't Amil first as you apparently think you were. I already knew and understood the doctrine of Premillennialism. I really never questioned what I HAD BEEN TAUGHT until I searched and studied the Word of God for myself. That's how I discovered the many contradictions and errors to be found in Premillennialism. Frankly, I can't imagine that one who had truth turning away from it to another doctrine that is not truth unless it was what you had been taught that was only called by the name Amillennialism???

For me, Premil has also posed some problems. The fact is, it *is* taught in the Scriptures apparently, whether I like it or not.

I don't know what you mean when you say "Premil has also posed some problems", but I know that if I believed a doctrine that posed some problems, I would not continue to support and defend it. There is nothing wrong with the Scripture, only our understanding of them. Amill does not pose any problems for me because it is the only eschatological doctrine that I find harmonizes with all of Scripture and does not force contradiction into the words of God.

And so the best proof I have of Premil is the fact it is there in Rev 20.

You say Premil is taught in Rev 20, can you explain how it is in a way that does not cause illogical conclusions?

For instance Premil teaches there will be two physical resurrections, first of the saints who shall reign with Christ during this time "a thousand years", secondly the rest who are resurrected after the thousand years have ended.

If this is true why does John write that those who were beheaded during their lifetimes have lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years? Weren't they martyred for their faith during this Gospel age? John does not say they shall be martyred in the future ONE thousand years. He says being faithful in life they HAD lived and reigned with Christ A thousand years,

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Also how does a doctrine that teaches there will be two physical resurrections reconcile with Scripture that tells us "the dead" shall all be resurrected in the same hour that is coming, those who have done good in life (lived and reigned with Christ) resurrected to life, while those who have done evil resurrected to damnation?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is just one of the many contradictions the doctrine of Premillennialism forces into the Word of God.

As for a "political salvation"???

Thanks for the dialog Randy, enjoyed the discussion, but since I will be away for a while, I may not be able to continue our discussion for some time.

Many Blessings

 

[Randy Kluth]

As I've said I wasn't Amil first as you apparently think you were. I already knew and understood the doctrine of Premillennialism. I really never questioned what I HAD BEEN TAUGHT until I searched and studied the Word of God for myself. That's how I discovered the many contradictions and errors to be found in Premillennialism. Frankly, I can't imagine that one who had truth turning away from it to another doctrine that is not truth unless it was what you had been taught that was only called by the name Amillennialism???


I don't know what you mean when you say "Premil has also posed some problems", but I know that if I believed a doctrine that posed some problems, I would not continue to support and defend it. There is nothing wrong with the Scripture, only our understanding of them. Amill does not pose any problems for me because it is the only eschatological doctrine that I find harmonizes with all of Scripture and does not force contradiction into the words of God.



You say Premil is taught in Rev 20, can you explain how it is in a way that does not cause illogical conclusions?

For instance Premil teaches there will be two physical resurrections, first of the saints who shall reign with Christ during this time "a thousand years", secondly the rest who are resurrected after the thousand years have ended.

If this is true why does John write that those who were beheaded during their lifetimes have lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years? Weren't they martyred for their faith during this Gospel age? John does not say they shall be martyred in the future ONE thousand years. He says being faithful in life they HAD lived and reigned with Christ A thousand years,

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Also how does a doctrine that teaches there will be two physical resurrections reconcile with Scripture that tells us "the dead" shall all be resurrected in the same hour that is coming, those who have done good in life (lived and reigned with Christ) resurrected to life, while those who have done evil resurrected to damnation?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is just one of the many contradictions the doctrine of Premillennialism forces into the Word of God.

As for a "political salvation"???

Thanks for the dialog Randy, enjoyed the discussion, but since I will be away for a while, I may not be able to continue our discussion for some time.

Many Blessings

I enjoyed it too. Enjoy your hiatus. We can pick it back up when you return, if you wish?

Some of the things you mention do pose legitimate problems for Premills--some of them for me, quite frankly, are easily answered. For example, "two resurrections" do not poses a problem for me since that it simply stated as fact, whereas earlier statements indicating they happen at the same time may simply be blanket statements of fact--not details of when each resurrection happens.

But yes, there are a number of issues for me. For example, what happens to those who participate in the "1st resurrection" during the Millennium? How do they rule, and where do they rule from?

Anyway, I appreciated the dialog too. As I said, I have no contempt for Amills. It is as natural to me as Premill is. I enjoyed fellowship for a long time among both groups. Hope to "see" you again!

 

[ewq1938]

But yes, there are a number of issues for me. For example, what happens to those who participate in the "1st resurrection" during the Millennium? How do they rule, and where do they rule from?

They rule with a rod of iron, symbolizing strict power. Keep in mind the Greek word for RULE is peaceful and gentle. The rod of iron can be used for non-ruling which is not gentle but RULE is used for what happens after the second coming when the nations are ruled over, Rev 2, 19. RULE in Rev 19 is also in the FUTURE TENSE, while other verbs such as SMITE and TREAD are present tense and happen at Armageddon.

 

[PinSeeker]

For me, Premil has also posed some problems. The fact is, it *is* taught in the Scriptures apparently, whether I like it or not. It is taught in Rev 20, and the only way I can get around it is by interpreting it as symbolic of today, or of the present age. And so the best proof I have of Premil is the fact it is there in Rev 20.

I'm interested in why you think this, too, Randy.

Is it "logical?" I can't prove it, as you say, but it fits logically into my eschatology as a way of combining with the OT promise to Abraham to save Israel and to save many nations.

With all due respect, Randy, the fact that you can't logically prove it ~ using Scripture ~ would (logically, sorry) seem to present some red flags that, hey, maybe this is not right...

Anyway, again, yes, I'm interested in why you think pre-millennialism is "there" in Revelation 20, and more generally why you think it is taught in the Scriptures. Truthfully, the fact that you think this seems to contradict what you say about proof.

So many are resistant to the idea of a political salvation, but that is how the language figures for me. And it is also how it was fulfilled in the past. Israel became a *nation* of God, and not just a nation with a small remnant of true believers. The majority confessed the one true God and the majority followed His ways.

I'm interested too in this idea of political salvation. This is a big reason why ethnic Jews have "missed" the Savior; they expected, it seems to me at least, "political salvation," and that was never what... well, never what God had in mind. Maybe some explanation of your understanding is needed here, too.

In the interest of forthrightness, I am in the amillennialism camp, too, like RWB, although I'm not sure he and I are exactly eye to eye on everything eschatological.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Randy Kluth]

They rule with a rod of iron, symbolizing strict power. Keep in mind the Greek word for RULE is peaceful and gentle. The rod of iron can be used for non-ruling which is not gentle but RULE is used for what happens after the second coming when the nations are ruled over, Rev 2, 19. RULE in Rev 19 is also in the FUTURE TENSE, while other verbs such as SMITE and TREAD are present tense and happen at Armageddon.

This I completely agree with. Thanks! appreciate the confirmation.

 

[PinSeeker]

...there are a number of issues for me. For example, what happens to those who participate in the "1st resurrection" during the Millennium? How do they rule, and where do they rule from?

Well, you and I have experienced the first resurrection... a spiritual resurrection, not physical, in which, as Paul says, we who were dead in our trespasses/sin were made alive together with Christ and raised up (resurrected) with Him and seated (ruling) with Him in the heavenly places in Him.

The spirits of those who have died are with Him now, in the same manner as the thief crucified on Jesus's right is was with Him that day in paradise, and this is happening increasingly over the current age.

So we rule in Him ~ in spirit ~ not yet in full, as that will be the case when He returns and the Kingdom is ushered in in its fullness. Just as He is with us in the Holy Spirit now, we are ruling with Him in the Holy Spirit now... and one day in person.

This is the current age, God's millennium, a thousand years in the sense that it is the complete time ~ though still in progress, of course ~ that God will bring all His elect into His Israel, the full number of Gentile elect and then the Jewish elect, when the partial hardening that is now on Israel is removed.

Grace and peace to you, Randy.