Was Jesus Heretical? - Why did they crucify Him?

[VictoryinJesus]

Your men have lied to you, or you are deceiving yourself: Mark 12:17

Water is not just water. Scripture makes it clear that baptism (with water) now saves you. Scripture makes it clear that we are to follow Jesus example. He was baptized (with water) and we are to be baptized with water if we are to follow His example. If you, Behold, believe that YOU don't have to follow His example and walk in His footstepst then DON'T...as for us true Christians....we will follow (as best we can) in His footsteps!!!!!!!!!!!!!

History and Scripture prove that YOU are a false prophet. What does Scripture say about false prophets: Matthew 7:15

Good day mate.........Mary

PS......notice how I have highlighted passages from Scripture to support the FACTS? And you, well YOU, have only given your unbiblical opinion which is opposite of Scripture. How sad for you Behold.......how sad.............

Just my two cents neither are an example of Christ. Neither water baptism were if you don’t do as we interpret and have the (our)holy living water of “blessing” then you are a heretic. Nor if you think water baptism will save you then you are a heretic. Paul thought it more important to sit with a weak brother who was afraid to eat…yet Paul said if I harm one who is weak in Faith then I harm one (child) for whom Christ died, and sin against Christ. The warning Christ gave was do not harm to the little children but let them come to Me. Same as the water in question He used an example of sitting a child on His lap. If water means more then also “don’t harm the children and let the little children come to Me.” Means more.

Neither is an example (Imo) of Living Water but both excludes the other for whom Christ died. Assuming “you don’t belong to Christ.”
John 4:11,23-24 The woman said unto him, Sir, you have nothing to draw with(don’t worry I have everything to draw with for if I be lifted up, I’ll draw all men unto Me), and the well is deep(He drew me up out of deep waters): from where then have you that living water(from the Father, for I am that Living water that proceed out and comes from God? And I am that Living (pure)Water that flows out from the Father and returns to the Father) [23] But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (and not the flesh)and in truth. (If they could they, works of the flesh, will exclude you.)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

John 4:11,23-24 The woman said unto him, Sir, you have nothing to draw with(don’t worry I have everything to draw with for if I be lifted up, I’ll draw all men unto Me)

Sir, you have nothing to draw with.
He had and possessed everything yet became poor that we be made rich(never to thirst again). To drink of the “Living Water”. He gave of Himself to draw up others out from a deep well. When she said to Him “You have nothing to draw with. How and from where will you give me this Living Water?” … “woman whom I love and am sitting with talking to, I will give Myself.” …“Are you Him that was and is to come?”. … “That is what I (the Son of God) has and why My Father Loves Me.” John 10:14-18 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, [15] just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. [17] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. [18] No one takes (steals)it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
“Sir, how do you have this Living Water and from where did You get it?” —I have authority to lay it down and take it up again. THIS CHARGE I have Received from My Father.”

Consider what we say of Jesus Christ how He is the only one worthy to draw men unto Himself. What does He have to draw with and where does it come from? Not like the priest with blemishes and imperfections who die that had to continually sacrifice animals but His sacrifice was Once….without blemish or imperfections. We love Him because He first Loved us and gave Himself. Even while we were dead in sin, He gave for us to be found in His Likeness. And out of them will flow Living Water…out of them will flow Christ…mercy, grace, truth, love, charity, forgiveness, long-suffering, patience, tempered-together (fitted-joined-together), and brotherly kindness. Baptism of and from the Spirit of God if these attributes be increasing in you they make you (bear fruit) fruitful in the knowledge of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

They were Heretical. They blamed Him for being so when it was them who were such. To me that is what He revealed to them, and they hated it. (Him) For example when He asked them Abraham would have rejoiced ... but you try to kill Me. An opportunity of self-reflection. "Why do you try to kill Me?" But some listened for example Saul/Paul when he was asked, "Saul Saul why do you persecute Me?" Big wake up moment of self-reflection (imo). That is why i think Jesus was not Heretical but instead they were what they accused Him of being and when self-reflection was given, they despised Him. Not because He was Heretical. But because they were.

Agreed for the most part.
One of the things I am challenging in this topic is our DEFINITION of "heretical".
You are seeing heretical as BAD (as most do), I am questioning that definition.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus Christ is (was)not heretical because the truth and love of God was (is) in Him.

How are you defining "heretical"?

 

[St. SteVen]

Sir, you have nothing to draw with.

Did he forget his pencil? - LOL

 

[Behold]

I wasn't talking about unbelievers. The church doesn't call unbelievers heretics.

A heretic is a deceived Christian, and its also a person who believes they are a Christian, because they have joined "a Church", or they are told that "water washed your sin away", and they believed that this is their Salvation.
That's a specific type of Heretic., who is a part of a "water cult".
So, they will define themselves and their CULT, as "Christian".
They will be found in Pulpits, and on TV, and on Forums, trying to teach the bible.
They also start denominations.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How are you defining "heretical"?

That is a good question. I wasn’t sure so I googled the definition.
heretic: noun

1. a person believing in or practicing religious heresy.
2. a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

If we go off the definition of a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted. Maybe they did see Him as a heretic. An example: when He healed a man on the Sabbath and they accused him of basically being a heretic. Going against what was generally acceptable. But still I think they were heretics against “which of you has an oxen that falls into a pit on the sabbath day and you do not pull him up out of the pit? is it right to save a mans life on the sabbath day, or to destroy a man’s life?”

There is a passage: as liars yet true, as dead yet behold we live. As outcast yet accepted of God. Heretic fits too I think: as heretics yet not heretics Falsely handling the word of God. They referred to them(followers of Christ) as “a sect” of men

sect: a group of people with somewhat different religious beliefs (typically regarded as heretical) from those of a larger group to which they belong

They (followers of Christ)teaching what they ought not teach. Heretics. Maybe by mens standards Jesus Christ appeared as a heretic yet He was approved of God “this is My beloved Son. Hear Him.” He is no heretic same as He is no liar though they called Him a liar. Just because He was called something as going against what is generally accepted does not make Him a heretic just as much as it doesn’t make Him a liar. I still think it showed who were the real heretics in their going against what is acceptable unto God in “why do you go about to kill Me.” Sure we could call Him an outcast too, yet He is acceptable unto God. Which is true? An outcast. Or accepted. Rejected of men yet accepted of God.
Isaiah 53:3-9 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But (yet)he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

In the sight of men…a heretic.
in the Sight of God…A Son.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Anybody who disagrees with me!

Best post on what a heretic is. I love the little laughing emoji. But at the same time it is sadly true.

 

[Brakelite]

A heretic is a deceived Christian, and its also a person who believes they are a Christian, because they have joined "a Church", or they are told that "water washed your sin away", and they believed that this is their Salvation.
That's a specific type of Heretic., who is a part of a "water cult".
So, they will define themselves and their CULT, as "Christian".
They will be found in Pulpits, and on TV, and on Forums, trying to teach the bible.
They also start denominations.

I disagree partly. Heretics can be genuine Christians who know the truth. They are deemed heretics by the church because they choose to think for themselves, and have identified where the church contradicts scripture, so they, against the church's warnings, have chosen to believe scripture.
That's why the Catholic church over the centuries murdered millions for heresy. Not because they discovered the truth, but because they rejected church authority and teaching.

 

[Brakelite]

KJV Acts 24:14
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets
:

 

[BarneyFife]

Follow-up to the Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist) topic.

The previous thread examined the term 'orthodox".
This thread will focus on the term "heretical".

In the same way that something is not considered orthodox,
it may also be termed as heretical. Thus labeling the person targeted as a heretic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

Was Jesus Heretical?

Arguments or comments from either side are welcome.

Perhaps we should begin by defining heretical?

A heretic is a necessary component of the NT church.

.

 

[BarneyFife]

And I'm really going to bed now.

 

[BarneyFife]

Because the less I sleep, the more I have to exercise, and who wants to do more exercise?

 

[St. SteVen]

Because the less I sleep, the more I have to exercise, and who wants to do more exercise?

One more post and I will call you a liar. - LOL

I forgot about this topic, mentioned in the OP for this one we are on.

Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist?)

Follow-up to the "Is Universalism Orthodox."[?] topic. What is this thing with accusations of unorthodox, heretic, heterodox, pagan, etc. Seems like blatant tribalism to me. Us versus them. When will we ever learn? So, was Jesus orthodox? Or did he operate outside the realm of the orthodoxy of...

www.christianityboard.com

/

 

[St. SteVen]

From the OP

Follow-up to the Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist) topic.

The previous thread examined the term 'orthodox".
This thread will focus on the term "heretical".

In the same way that something is not considered orthodox,
it may also be termed as heretical. Thus labeling the person targeted as a heretic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

- Was Jesus Heretical?

Arguments or comments from either side are welcome.

Perhaps we should begin by defining heretical?

]

 

[Brakelite]

I think it quite appropriate that I copied this from a friend on Facebook, and post it here.

The Man Christ Jesus is an indescribably awesome marvel to me. Besides considering the infinite condescension He made just by becoming one of us, exchanging His outward, glorious form as the only begotten Son of God for a tabernacle of dust, let us also think about the life He had to live for our sake. It is beyond our ability to completely fathom. Jesus had to live a life of absolute perfect humanity in order to become the author of eternal salvation for us.

"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered; 9 And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him (Heb 5:8, 9)

As He grew in wisdom and favor with God and man, Jesus became consciously aware of His mission to perfect humanity and the realization that the salvation of all was 100% dependent upon Him. What enormous pressure!

Yet, in the face of this pressure, the overwhelming odds leveled against Him, with all the demonic host and wicked men allied against Him, Isaiah prophesied that:

"He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His law (Isaiah 42:4)

Nor be discouraged! Just wow! The apostle Paul wrote of Him:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God (Heb 12:2)

He had great joy set before Him - the joy of one day seeing the redeemed host of men and women, boys and girls, who will live forever in glory with Him. For this He considered the cross a small thing - He despised its shame. And while knowing that this was the death He was ultimately headed toward, carrying the enormous burden of being our perfection His entire lifetime, He was still constantly going around helping other people with their infinitely smaller burdens - whether that was encouraging those fighting the good fight of faith or pleading with sinners to turn to God. Please read the following excellent words about Him.

"...Often He met those who had drifted under Satan's control, and who had no power to break from his snare. To such a one, discouraged, sick, tempted, and fallen, Jesus would speak words of tenderest pity, words that were needed and could be understood. Others He met who were fighting a hand-to-hand battle with the adversary of souls. These He encouraged to persevere, assuring them that they would win; for angels of God were on their side, and would give them the victory. Those whom He thus helped were convinced that here was One in whom they could trust with perfect confidence. He would not betray the secrets they poured into His sympathizing ear (Desires of Ages pg 91)

And Jesus did all of this while patiently and sinlessly enduring the attacks of evil men against Himself. The very people who He was trying to save were attacking Him, against their very own interests! Yet He prayed, even for His murderers, "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do!" It is hard to wrap your mind around Him. He is a marvel of marvels!

"Of the bitterness that falls to the lot of humanity, there was no part which Christ did not taste. There were those who tried to cast contempt upon Him because of His birth, and even in His childhood He had to meet their scornful looks and evil whisperings. If He had responded by an impatient word or look, if He had conceded to His brothers by even one wrong act, He would have failed of being a perfect example. Thus He would have failed of carrying out the plan for our redemption. Had He even admitted that there could be an excuse for sin, Satan would have triumphed, and the world would have been lost. This is why the tempter worked to make His life as trying as possible, that He might be led to sin (Desire of Ages pg 88.2)

What an indescribably incredible man Jesus was and still is. After all, the Bible says He is still this same Jesus! By incarnating, the Son of God gave us a perfect representation of the character of His Father. He revealed what the Father would be like if He had become a man Himself because, as His only begotten Son, He was the perfect reflection of Him - like Father, like Son, as the old saying goes.

So think of Jesus - consider Him and the burden He carried His whole life, contemplate how kind, merciful, generous, and patient He was, how caring He was for the sick, the poor, the lowly, think about the the contradiction He faced from sinners against Himself - yet through it all He pressed forward - never failing and never giving in to discouragement. Do you realize His strength?

So don't you think that He's got what it takes to see you through whatever it is you are facing? Even death itself could not defeat Him! So if Jesus carried the weight of the world then surely He is strong enough to carry you. He's still the very same Jesus up in heaven above and He is just as interested in your salvation as He was when He died upon the cross. Your redemption is the joy set before Him.
J Smith.

 

[BarneyFife]

From the OP

Follow-up to the Was Jesus Orthodox? (or Baptist) topic.

The previous thread examined the term 'orthodox".
This thread will focus on the term "heretical".

In the same way that something is not considered orthodox,
it may also be termed as heretical. Thus labeling the person targeted as a heretic.
Such as were burned by the Church at one time.

- Was Jesus Heretical?

Arguments or comments from either side are welcome.

Perhaps we should begin by defining heretical?

]

A bit of heresy here and there doth not (necessarily) a heretic make.

.

 

[St. SteVen]

A bit of heresy here and there doth not (necessarily) a heretic make.

.

I created this topic and a related one or two, because I saw posters throwing the terms "heretic" and "heretical" around as an attempt insult or marginalize others.

But in reality, orthodox/unorthodox, heretical/heterodox, were merely terms for ones relationship to the religious status quo.

What was Jesus' relationship to the religious status quo? Was he orthodox? (nope) IMHO
Did that make him a heretic to orthodoxy? (yup) IMHO

What about us? What is our relationship to the religious status quo? Do we bow to institutionalized mainline Christianity, or not?

]

 

[Behold]

I created this topic and a related one or two, because I saw posters throwing the terms "heretic" and "heretical" around as an attempt insult or marginalize others.

Yet, if you create a Thread that is using the word "heretical" in relation to Jesus.....that isn't "attempting insult'..

Uh huh.

 

[Brakelite]

The Catholic church murdered millions of what they called "heretics". They were called such because they hadn't submitted to church teaching or papal authority. None were persecuted because they didn't agree with the scriptures, and only a few were actually opposed to God Himself. They simply didn't agree with the established church's perspectives on God, the scriptures, or their micro managing of society.