rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
where were the fling scorpions?
And the mark of the beast?
Where is no buying or selling worldwide w/out the mark.
I will wait.
The 144,000 before God at the end.
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And the mark of the beast?
Where is no buying or selling worldwide w/out the mark.
I will wait.
Where are they in Daniel 9?
They're all in your delusional dispensational imagination.
Wait all you want.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The point is you have traded God's Word for the words of Josephus. Josephus is your final authority, not God.
FOTG, you say a lot of really good things (in my opinion, of course), and I thought we were on the same page regarding the millennium, but based on this, it seems not. It seems you too suppose God's millennium to be future only. Is that correct? Or perhaps instead of 'millennium' you mean to say 'eternal life' and/or 'the new heaven and new earth'...?
This is a puzzling statement also:
Do you not believe that once you are born again of the Spirit, you are eternally secure in Christ?
Grace and peace to you.
An event of the significance, both spiritually and temporally, of the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel, would not possibly have gone unprophesied. It signified the total destruction of everything to do with the old covenant, and its complete transcendence by the New.
Jesus prophesied it.
Josephus et al corroborated it.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Luke 21:20-24 is about the events from 66 to 70AD.
Not to be confused nor conflated with the events concerning the Second Coming that has not been fulfilled yet. You are taking a few words from Matthew "like never before" and using human understanding to put them where they don't belong.
Luke 21:24 is the gap between the first century and the yet to happen Second Coming:
"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Jerusalem is still being trodden down of the Gentiles. Muslims and Arabs still have a strong presence in Jerusalem. The gospel is still harvesting Gentiles and Israelites from all over the earth into the church. Israel is still blind and has not had that blindness removed as a nation. So the next verses are all still future.
"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."
Luke 21:20-24 have no parallel verses in Matthew 24 to say Matthew is talking about what Luke covered. Matthew never mentioned any events that Luke covered in those verses. No one can say Matthew explains Luke 21:20-24. Neither the AoD nor the time of great tribulation is covered in Luke. Luke covers the first century. Matthew covers the Second Coming of Christ. So saying that the Roman armies are the AoD is horrible hermeneutics. They are not even the same events.
Luke and Paul tells us what the fulness of the Gentiles entails. To try to force that concept into Matthew would be wrong.
Yes there was vengeance, wrath, and distress in the Jewish revolt, and subsequent destruction of Jerusalem. But that has nothing to do with Matthew's account of the Second Coming and Jacob's trouble that was like never before, because the time after the Second Coming will be the worse time, even worse than the Flood. People will literally wish they were dead, but not allowed to die, and find comfort in sheol. Life on earth will be worse than even the torments of sheol. The 42 months are given to Satan, and will be as if sheol was happening on earth. That is the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24.
Satan was not the one in control in 70AD, and even Amil claim Satan was bound and had no power in 70AD. So Amil contradict their own claims to state Satan was bound but yet unbound during the 3.5 years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Satan was not cast into the LOF in 70AD.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I would say that the tribulation of the saints under Nero which occurred just a few years before the destruction of the temple was far greater than anything the saints would have endured during the Roman siege of Jerusalem, because the saints would have known (Luke 21:20-24) that when they see those armies gathering around Jerusalem, they need to get out of Jerusalem and Judea.
Josephus writes that the Romans in the days of the siege (before the walls were breached) repeatedly offered any Jews who chose to leave Jerusalem amnesty and safe passage if they left.
Besides this, every verse in the New Testament talking about tribulation or affliction is talking about the tribulation of apostles or of the saints, except two - one where Paul says God will repay the world with tribulation (at the time of Christ's return) for the tribulation the world brought upon the saints, and one where Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish upon all who practice evil.
All the other verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation or affliction or persecution are talking about what apostles and saints experience in the world.
Josephus writes that the Romans in the days of the siege (before the walls were breached) repeatedly offered any Jews who chose to leave Jerusalem amnesty and safe passage if they left.
Besides this, every verse in the New Testament talking about tribulation or affliction is talking about the tribulation of apostles or of the saints, except two - one where Paul says God will repay the world with tribulation (at the time of Christ's return) for the tribulation the world brought upon the saints, and one where Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish upon all who practice evil.
All the other verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation or affliction or persecution are talking about what apostles and saints experience in the world.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Changing Revelation to fit Matthew is the wrong interpretation. We are not warned to change how Matthew was written, but we are warned not to change Revelation.
Perhaps everyone should interpret Matthew in light of the Book of Revelation instead of the other way?
There are dozens of changes in human interpretation with how Revelation should be viewed, and no one can agree because there is a curse associated with changing around Revelation to fit human understanding.
People should change their view of Matthew 24 and leave Revelation just the way it is.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
According to the flesh they were his brethren. Not according to their place in Israel:
Not however that the word of God has failed, for NOT ALL those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they ALL children. -- Rom.9:6
They are only children of Abraham if they are in Christ. So Paul says in Rom.1:3 that IF HE COULD he would take their place and be accursed from Christ.
They were the brethren of Jesus according to the flesh also. Not sure if that still applies since Jesus is risen from the dead. That does not mean that all of them are still Israel:
They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. -- John 8:39.
Jesus was telling them that they are not Abraham's children just because they are his genetic descendants.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It doesn't in the King James that I have. But it makes no difference, because "the" appears in verse 29 in reference to the same tribulation mentioned in verse 21, and verses 29-31 make it abundantly clear that the tribulation being spoken about will occur at the time of the end in the days immediately preceding His return - at least 1.953 years too late for A.D70.
I don't believe the text in Matthew 24 is telling us that what Jesus was saying about the great tribulation is the same as what Luke called (Greek: orge - wrath) - coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in Luke 21:23, where the context is armies gathering against Jerusalem. There is also the following, always overlooked:
I don't believe the text in Matthew 24 is telling us that what Jesus was saying about the great tribulation is the same as what Luke called (Greek: orge - wrath) - coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in Luke 21:23, where the context is armies gathering against Jerusalem. There is also the following, always overlooked:
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION
"Every day Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, but at night he went and stayed on the Mount of Olives." (Luke 21:37).
"The Olivet Discourse" derives it's name from Jesus' location when He said the things He said during when He was seated on the Mount of Olives after coming out of the temple in Jerusalem.
Jesus' statement regarding the coming destruction of the temple was made to the scribes and Pharisees NOT while Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, but while He was in the temple, and to His disciples just outside the temple.
Location: In the temple courtyard.
Audience: scribes and Pharisees.
Subject: The coming destruction of the city and the temple.
Note: Chapter and verse divisions were only added to the text of the Bible in 1227 A.D. The text of Matthew 23:37 to Matthew 24:3 is speaking about the destruction of the temple:
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
"Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.
And he said to them, "
Do you see all these things?
I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!" (Matthew 23:37-24:2).
NEW LOCATION, NEW AUDIENCE,
AND A NEW SUBJECT INTRODUCED BY JESUS
AND A NEW SUBJECT INTRODUCED BY JESUS
After coming out of the temple Jesus then walked down the mountain, and crossed through the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives (which is opposite the Temple Mount), walked to the top, and sat down after reaching the top.
Hence Matthew's gospel very clearly divides what Jesus said:
(a) Inside the temple (Matthew 23); then
(b) Just outside the temple (Matthew 24:1-2); and then
(c) On the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:3 onward).
Once on the Mount of Olives, Jesus' audience was now no longer the scribes and Pharisees, but His disciples. They asked Him three questions:
1. "When shall these things be?" And [Greek: kai]
2. "What shall be the sign that these things are about to take place"?
2. "What shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the Age?"
THE FIRST SUBJECT JESUS SPOKE ABOUT ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
Jesus' disciples asked Him about the temple in Jerusalem, regarding which He had said that not one stone would be left upon another that would not be thrown down - but when He began to reply - and this is the first thing Jesus is recorded as having said after sitting down on the Mount of Olives - instead of answering their question about that temple, Jesus opens His answer by telling them about the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience:
JESUS' STATEMENTS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES REGARDING THE END OF THE AGE
AND COMING (RETURN) OF CHRIST:
AND COMING (RETURN) OF CHRIST:
So the disciples asked Jesus about the temple made with human hands and Jesus first tells them about the tribulation the living stones of the New Testament Temple would face. But He also replied regarding the temple made with human hands (Luke 21:20-24).
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
YES, i redirected you BACK to the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH so that you can SEE that their are TWO distinct Jews.
a.) Unredeemed Jews of the flesh, dead in tresspasses and sins, blinded to the Holy Scriptures of MESSIAH
b.) Redeemed Jews under the Blood of Yeshua HaMoshiach
Same is TRUE for Gentiles = according to the Word of the LORD.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Revelation came later and will not contradict Matthew 24.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The Greek takes precedence over any translation, King James or otherwise.
It makes all the difference, because Jesus did not tell His disciples to go for coffee while He began a futurized monologue irrelevant to them. What He said was directly related to what the Judaean Christians would experience within a generation.
They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, fled, and survived.
Thankfully, they were not dispensational futurites.
Nothing to do with "the time of the end".
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It's a method used when you don't have an answer, to try and regain control by confusing your audience.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It's what Jesus said about the wrath to come upon Jerusalem (which Luke recorded in Luke 21:20-24) that caused them to flee, not what Jesus said about great tribulation (which was recorded by Matthew).
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