The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

The 70th week ended circa 34 AD, and tribulation has been continuous since Calvary.

where were the fling scorpions?
And the mark of the beast?
Where is no buying or selling worldwide w/out the mark.
I will wait.

 

[covenantee]

"The" does not appear in the text in Revelation 7:14 either.

It does in the Greek. Follow the link.

 

[covenantee]

where were the fling scorpions?
And the mark of the beast?
Where is no buying or selling worldwide w/out the mark.
I will wait.

Where are they in Daniel 9?

They're all in your delusional dispensational imagination.

Wait all you want.

 

[Timtofly]

Nor are you.

He is a recognized historian.

You're not.

The point is you have traded God's Word for the words of Josephus. Josephus is your final authority, not God.

 

[covenantee]

The point is you have traded God's Word for the words of Josephus. Josephus is your final authority, not God.

You are your final authority, not God.

 

[PinSeeker]

The New Heavens and New Earth and the millennium commence together... Those who worshiped the beast will not go into the millennium...

FOTG, you say a lot of really good things (in my opinion, of course), and I thought we were on the same page regarding the millennium, but based on this, it seems not. It seems you too suppose God's millennium to be future only. Is that correct? Or perhaps instead of 'millennium' you mean to say 'eternal life' and/or 'the new heaven and new earth'...?

This is a puzzling statement also:

No OSAS until after the GWT.​

Do you not believe that once you are born again of the Spirit, you are eternally secure in Christ?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Josephus said nothing about anything Jesus prophesied.

An event of the significance, both spiritually and temporally, of the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel, would not possibly have gone unprophesied. It signified the total destruction of everything to do with the old covenant, and its complete transcendence by the New.

Jesus prophesied it.

Josephus et al corroborated it.

 

[rwb]

SMH

What is SMH???

 

[Timtofly]

For those first century Jews the wrath of God coming upon them would be like never before, not because the Temple and city had never seen devastation before, but because the Temple and city would never again be to them a blessing from God as before.

Luke 21:20-24 is about the events from 66 to 70AD.

Not to be confused nor conflated with the events concerning the Second Coming that has not been fulfilled yet. You are taking a few words from Matthew "like never before" and using human understanding to put them where they don't belong.

Luke 21:24 is the gap between the first century and the yet to happen Second Coming:

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Jerusalem is still being trodden down of the Gentiles. Muslims and Arabs still have a strong presence in Jerusalem. The gospel is still harvesting Gentiles and Israelites from all over the earth into the church. Israel is still blind and has not had that blindness removed as a nation. So the next verses are all still future.

"And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

Luke 21:20-24 have no parallel verses in Matthew 24 to say Matthew is talking about what Luke covered. Matthew never mentioned any events that Luke covered in those verses. No one can say Matthew explains Luke 21:20-24. Neither the AoD nor the time of great tribulation is covered in Luke. Luke covers the first century. Matthew covers the Second Coming of Christ. So saying that the Roman armies are the AoD is horrible hermeneutics. They are not even the same events.

Luke and Paul tells us what the fulness of the Gentiles entails. To try to force that concept into Matthew would be wrong.

Yes there was vengeance, wrath, and distress in the Jewish revolt, and subsequent destruction of Jerusalem. But that has nothing to do with Matthew's account of the Second Coming and Jacob's trouble that was like never before, because the time after the Second Coming will be the worse time, even worse than the Flood. People will literally wish they were dead, but not allowed to die, and find comfort in sheol. Life on earth will be worse than even the torments of sheol. The 42 months are given to Satan, and will be as if sheol was happening on earth. That is the AoD mentioned in Matthew 24.

Satan was not the one in control in 70AD, and even Amil claim Satan was bound and had no power in 70AD. So Amil contradict their own claims to state Satan was bound but yet unbound during the 3.5 years leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Satan was not cast into the LOF in 70AD.

 

[Zao is life]

I'm thinking that since Christ is speaking to His disciples about things that shall greatly affect them, as well as things that shall affect the Church throughout the ages "great tribulation" by way of God's wrath did come upon "this people" when the Roman Army sacked Jerusalem destroying the Temple and city.

Luke 21:23 (KJV) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

For those first century Jews the wrath of God coming upon them would be like never before, not because the Temple and city had never seen devastation before, but because the Temple and city would never again be to them a blessing from God as before.

BUT...that is not the only "great tribulation" that Christ warned His disciples would come. Because while Christ was speaking to His first century Jewish disciples, more importantly He is speaking to and warning His Church on earth of "great tribulation" that was to come upon them as the Church faithfully carries out the Great Commission to take the Gospel unto all the nations of the whole world. Great tribulation that shall come against the body of Christ as the spiritual Kingdom of God is being built through the power of His Gospel and Spirit shall be even greater than the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD.

The Church on this earth has, is and will indeed continue to suffer "great tribulation" until the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete. The difference is that "great tribulation" came from the WRATH of God just as He had repeatedly warned the nation of Israel it would if they turned away from Him to worship foreign gods. But "great tribulation" that has come, is coming, and shall come upon the universal Church in this world is spiritual warfare between the forces of good and evil. It truly is greater than the destruction that came upon Jerusalem and the Temple, and once Christ has defeated the last foe, being physical death, Satan and his demonic presence with mankind shall be no more, because then all things shall be made new again.

I would say that the tribulation of the saints under Nero which occurred just a few years before the destruction of the temple was far greater than anything the saints would have endured during the Roman siege of Jerusalem, because the saints would have known (Luke 21:20-24) that when they see those armies gathering around Jerusalem, they need to get out of Jerusalem and Judea.

Josephus writes that the Romans in the days of the siege (before the walls were breached) repeatedly offered any Jews who chose to leave Jerusalem amnesty and safe passage if they left.

Besides this, every verse in the New Testament talking about tribulation or affliction is talking about the tribulation of apostles or of the saints, except two - one where Paul says God will repay the world with tribulation (at the time of Christ's return) for the tribulation the world brought upon the saints, and one where Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish upon all who practice evil.

All the other verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation or affliction or persecution are talking about what apostles and saints experience in the world.​

 

[Timtofly]

There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah where the flood comes 7 days after Noah is told to enter the ark and one like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.


There are two raptures. One before the tribulation which is the seals and one after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins which is one year from the first truptet until Jesus leaves heaven with His armies.


Of course it doesn't fit. The 144.000 are first fruits of the second harvest.


In Matthew 24 the 2nd coming does NOT occur after the Great Tribulation. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. The second advent occurs after the GT.

Here is the proof that the tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The tribulation if over at the 6th seal. The Word tells us in Matthew 24, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That occurs at the 6th seal, so the tribulation is over at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Then God's wrath begins.

Additionally, the GT does not begin until the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the midst of the week.
I think you understand there are two raptures. One happens before the tribulation and one happens at the 6th seal. That is what you see in the harvest of Revelation 14.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.

Changing Revelation to fit Matthew is the wrong interpretation. We are not warned to change how Matthew was written, but we are warned not to change Revelation.

Perhaps everyone should interpret Matthew in light of the Book of Revelation instead of the other way?

There are dozens of changes in human interpretation with how Revelation should be viewed, and no one can agree because there is a curse associated with changing around Revelation to fit human understanding.

People should change their view of Matthew 24 and leave Revelation just the way it is.

 

[Zao is life]

paul said it.
I only reported what was there.
The POINT is that he established there are Jews and he is one of them.
He called the unredeemed Jews his brethren.
You cant erase it.

According to the flesh they were his brethren. Not according to their place in Israel:

Not however that the word of God has failed, for NOT ALL those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they ALL children. -- Rom.9:6

They are only children of Abraham if they are in Christ. So Paul says in Rom.1:3 that IF HE COULD he would take their place and be accursed from Christ.

They were the brethren of Jesus according to the flesh also. Not sure if that still applies since Jesus is risen from the dead. That does not mean that all of them are still Israel:

They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. -- John 8:39.

Jesus was telling them that they are not Abraham's children just because they are his genetic descendants.

 

[Zao is life]

It does in the Greek. Follow the link.

It doesn't in the King James that I have. But it makes no difference, because "the" appears in verse 29 in reference to the same tribulation mentioned in verse 21, and verses 29-31 make it abundantly clear that the tribulation being spoken about will occur at the time of the end in the days immediately preceding His return - at least 1.953 years too late for A.D70.

I don't believe the text in Matthew 24 is telling us that what Jesus was saying about the great tribulation is the same as what Luke called (Greek: orge - wrath) - coming upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in Luke 21:23, where the context is armies gathering against Jerusalem. There is also the following, always overlooked:
​

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION​

"Every day Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, but at night he went and stayed on the Mount of Olives." (Luke 21:37).

"The Olivet Discourse" derives it's name from Jesus' location when He said the things He said during when He was seated on the Mount of Olives after coming out of the temple in Jerusalem.

Jesus' statement regarding the coming destruction of the temple was made to the scribes and Pharisees NOT while Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, but while He was in the temple, and to His disciples just outside the temple.

Location: In the temple courtyard.
Audience: scribes and Pharisees.
Subject: The coming destruction of the city and the temple.

Note: Chapter and verse divisions were only added to the text of the Bible in 1227 A.D. The text of Matthew 23:37 to Matthew 24:3 is speaking about the destruction of the temple:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to her, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

"Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.

And he said to them, "

Do you see all these things?

I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!" (Matthew 23:37-24:2).

NEW LOCATION, NEW AUDIENCE,
AND A NEW SUBJECT INTRODUCED BY JESUS​

After coming out of the temple Jesus then walked down the mountain, and crossed through the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives (which is opposite the Temple Mount), walked to the top, and sat down after reaching the top.

Hence Matthew's gospel very clearly divides what Jesus said:

(a) Inside the temple (Matthew 23); then
(b) Just outside the temple (Matthew 24:1-2); and then
(c) On the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:3 onward).

Once on the Mount of Olives, Jesus' audience was now no longer the scribes and Pharisees, but His disciples. They asked Him three questions:

1. "When shall these things be?" And [Greek: kai]
2. "What shall be the sign that these things are about to take place"?
2. "What shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the Age?"

THE FIRST SUBJECT JESUS SPOKE ABOUT ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES​

Jesus' disciples asked Him about the temple in Jerusalem, regarding which He had said that not one stone would be left upon another that would not be thrown down - but when He began to reply - and this is the first thing Jesus is recorded as having said after sitting down on the Mount of Olives - instead of answering their question about that temple, Jesus opens His answer by telling them about the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience:

​

JESUS' STATEMENTS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES REGARDING THE END OF THE AGE
AND COMING (RETURN) OF CHRIST:
​

So the disciples asked Jesus about the temple made with human hands and Jesus first tells them about the tribulation the living stones of the New Testament Temple would face. But He also replied regarding the temple made with human hands (Luke 21:20-24).

​

 

[David in NJ]

Your position is " no such thing as a Jew"
I blew a hole in it.
You redirected

YES, i redirected you BACK to the Holy Scriptures of TRUTH so that you can SEE that their are TWO distinct Jews.
a.) Unredeemed Jews of the flesh, dead in tresspasses and sins, blinded to the Holy Scriptures of MESSIAH

b.) Redeemed Jews under the Blood of Yeshua HaMoshiach

Same is TRUE for Gentiles = according to the Word of the LORD.

 

[David in NJ]

According to the flesh they were his brethren. Not according to their place in Israel:

Not however that the word of God has failed, for NOT ALL those of Israel are Israel; nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they ALL children. -- Rom.9:6

They are only children of Abraham if they are in Christ. So Paul says in Rom.1:3 that IF HE COULD he would take their place and be accursed from Christ.

They were the brethren of Jesus according to the flesh also. Not sure if that still applies since Jesus is risen from the dead. That does not mean that all of them are still Israel:

They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father. Jesus answered them, If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. -- John 8:39.

Jesus was telling them that they are not Abraham's children just because they are his genetic descendants.

Simple, straight-forward truth.

 

[Zao is life]

Changing Revelation to fit Matthew is the wrong interpretation. We are not warned to change how Matthew was written, but we are warned not to change Revelation.

Perhaps everyone should interpret Matthew in light of the Book of Revelation instead of the other way?

There are dozens of changes in human interpretation with how Revelation should be viewed, and no one can agree because there is a curse associated with changing around Revelation to fit human understanding.

People should change their view of Matthew 24 and leave Revelation just the way it is.

Yes, the Revelation came later and will not contradict Matthew 24.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where are they in Daniel 9?

They're all in your delusional dispensational imagination.

Wait all you want.

Try revelation on.
Maybe that will help.
It is there.
Maybe get an eraser?

 

[covenantee]

It doesn't in the King James that I have. But it makes no difference, because "the" appears in verse 29 in reference to the same tribulation mentioned in verse 21, and verses 29-31 make it abundantly clear that the tribulation being spoken about will occur at the time of the end in the days immediately preceding His return - at least 1.953 years too late for A.D70.

The Greek takes precedence over any translation, King James or otherwise.

It makes all the difference, because Jesus did not tell His disciples to go for coffee while He began a futurized monologue irrelevant to them. What He said was directly related to what the Judaean Christians would experience within a generation.

They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, fled, and survived.

Thankfully, they were not dispensational futurites.

Nothing to do with "the time of the end".

 

[Zao is life]

What is SMH???

It's a method used when you don't have an answer, to try and regain control by confusing your audience.

 

[Zao is life]

The Greek takes precedence over any translation, King James or otherwise.

It makes all the difference, because Jesus did not tell His disciples to go for coffee while He began a futurized monologue irrelevant to them. What He said was directly related to what the Judaean Christians would experience within a generation.

They remembered Jesus' warning, heeded it, fled, and survived.

Thankfully, they were not dispensational futurites.

Nothing to do with "the time of the end".

It's what Jesus said about the wrath to come upon Jerusalem (which Luke recorded in Luke 21:20-24) that caused them to flee, not what Jesus said about great tribulation (which was recorded by Matthew).