The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

So the people of Jesus were the Romans?

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Can you read?

 

[The Light]

Can you read?

Well no actually. I never found the need to. I just go to a post and sense what is there. It works great usually. However I have found that if there is an earthquake within a hundred miles it can mess me up.

 

[Zao is life]

"There is neither male nor female..."
Cue sarcasm
Therefore only eunuchs and confused women populate the church because there are no more men and women, but gender neutral humanoids.
There... we now have the complete one dimensional error of taking replacement theology pillars to there logical conclusion.
Hint:
We still see ethnic Jews in the church as well as men and women.
Lets get real please.

Your red herring. No Jew nor Gentile, male nor female etc in Christ. You never addressed the fact that Paul said not all ethnic Israel are Israel. But you say "No, all ethnic Israel is Israel". Put Paul's statement regarding the fact that not all ethnic Israel is Israel together with what he said about Jews and Gentiles, male and female in Christ and you have yet another confirmation that only those in Christ are Israel.

Your red herring led you into exposing your fallacy yet again.

 

[Zao is life]

noah over a mile into the sky DURING THE FLOOD.
Then RETURNS back to earth post flood.
Got to love it, enjoy it, and the favor of celebrating Gods word.
" let my word be confirmed by 2 or 3 witnesses.

.. and all other flesh perished in the flood except those who were saved in the ark through their faith in the Word of God.

Where are all these mortals you think you're going to be ruling over in the millennium?

The flood - the flood that destroyed all flesh except those who were lifted up out of the world with the ark they were in - is the type of the 7th bowl of wrath and 7th trumpet - the wrath of God which occurs after the tribulation of the saints and after their resurrection/rapture which comes after the tribulation of the saints.

 

[Zao is life]

Your references to Revelation, Babylon, and Jeremiah are not included in Jesus' warnings about deceivers, and are not part of the historical fulfillments of those warnings.

Your references are irrelevant to the irrefutable historical evidences of the fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies.

Why not address the content of the post -- historical evidences of fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies -- instead of indulging in futurized speculation?

The principal that you use for your forcing everything Jesus said into the 1st century and 70 A.D is the same principle as saying that Babylon was destroyed hundreds of years before the time of Christ and the same language was used by the prophets who prophesied Babylon's destruction that was used in the Revelation for the destruction of Babylon the Great, therefore what's written in the Revelation about Babylon the Great is talking about something that occurred thousands of years earlier.

What's written in the Revelation about the coming destruction of Babylon the Great is as much future as is what Jesus said about the end of the Age and his return in the Olivet Discourse. When He spoke about what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 70 A.D He used the word "wrath", but when He used the words "tribulation" and "persecution" He was talking about what the living stones of the New Testament Temple are going to experience at the end of the Age and time of His return.

Otherwise your total inconsistency with how you choose to interpret prophetic passages of scripture is exposed.​

 

[Zao is life]

No, that is not who pursues her. It was satan himself.

Satan has human agents.

 

[Zao is life]

But different people believe different things about any one certain passage of Scripture, Fullness of the Gentiles. If you don't want to have ~ or can't have ~ a direct conversation regarding any one passage of Scripture with another question, then, okay, we just won't have it. I asked you a direct question, person to person, and expected a direct, person to person answer. In your answer, I certainly would have expected a reference to Scripture, but... yeah.

I have the Scriptures. I can read God's Word just as well as you can (probably :)). Now, if you were to use a verse or passage to support what you say in answer to the question... that's all well and good, in the course of discussion. Would have been, anyway...


I'll be glad to comment on the Scriptures; I always love to do so. If you don't want to engage in a one-to-one conversation about the Scriptures and how you personally see this or that in Scripture ~ because yes, Scripture is what it is, but that doesn't necessarily mean that any to people see or understand this or that in Scripture the same way ~ then so be it.


See above. If you can't or won't have a personal conversation, then so be it.

Grace and peace to you.

No personal conversation is possible in this board, or any other. It's all public.

But anyway, I pointed you to the answer as to what I believe - I pointed you to what scripture says about Jesus, to what God said to Adam, and to what Jesus said to us, quoting book, chapter and verse each time. You quoted something I had said in a post asking why i had said it, so I pointed you to the scriptures that lead to what I said in that post.

Then you attacked me.

So if you cannot hold a conversation with someone who quotes scripture when you ask a question about why he said something he said in a post, then we all understand.

God bless.​

 

[Zao is life]

I'm not "rejecting the Scripture(s)" in any way, David. That's a silly thing to say, quite frankly.

What I was looking for ~ earnestly ~ was a personal answer to a personal question, and then maybe some discussion. That's how personal conversations work... or, at least, should work. :)

This is a discussion forum. If one is unwilling (or unable) to engage in discussion, then that at least sort of begs the question why they are even here ~ as well as, well, off-putting to one who is earnestly trying to engage in such ~ and even antithetical to the very purpose of this discussion forum, which is to be "a place of scholarly discussion, friendship and an environment where members can grow, learn and share their experiences in Christ."

Grace and peace to you.

Well you refused to engage in discussion about the scriptures I quoted when I quoted them in response to your question as to why I made a certain statement in a post.

It's not very scholarly of you.

Nor is attacking me because you do not want to discuss the scriptures I gave you to show why I said what I said in a post - and that was in answer to your question as to why I said what I said in that post.

This is going around in circles.

I'm not going to respond to any more of your accusations about whether or not I answered your question. Nor any more of your attacks.

God bless.

 

[rwb]

You are welcome brother.

There is an order given. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

BUT...............only those that look for Him will He appear a second time unto salvation.

This is a continuation of my previous unfinished reply.

Why do you say the physically dead are the firstfruits, when Paul has twice shown Christ is the firstfruits of the physically dead? The dead are not raptured when Christ comes again. They are physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Those still physically alive at Christ's coming are the ones who will be "caught up" (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. In that moment and twinkling of an eye the living shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. Just as the physically dead were resurrected and changed. Then all the saints shall be together with Christ in the air.

Carefully consider the following passages from Scripture. When Christ comes again in an hour coming the DEAD, ALL who are in the graves shall come forth either to resurrection life, or damnation. This is the last day of this age when Christ has promised all who belong to Him shall be raised up. The DEAD in Christ resurrected immortal & incorruptible, those in Christ who are still alive when He comes again, are caught up (raptured) with those who have been resurrected from the graves to immortal life. The order on the last day, in an hour that is coming is first the resurrection to immortality for the DEAD in Christ, and then with them the LIVING in Christ are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

None of the above passages depicting Christ's coming again tell us the firstfruits unto God and the Lord are being caught up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air. On the last day, when the last trumpet sounds, in an hour that is coming, the firstfruits of the Lord will be physically resurrected/caught up. Those who are the firstfruits of the Lord will be with the Lord when He returns the second time for His saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What you call the rapture which shall not be before the last trump sounds on the last day in an hour coming, and time given this earth shall be no longer, is not the rapture at all, but is a spiritual ascension to heaven a spiritual body of believers. The 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel are the firstfruits of the Lord. Firstfruits to ascend spiritually alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers as living souls, without a physical body. The Lord has already taken His firstfruits to heaven, a spiritual body of believers. Who are as the angels of God in heaven, celestial beings. He did this through His Spirit when we went into the lower parts of the earth (the grave) and set the captives free, taking them with Him to heaven spiritually alive living souls.

We are told to watch and be ready for His coming again for the final harvest physically that shall be when time given this earth shall be no longer.

The seals of the book that only the Lamb slain was found worthy to open have been opened since the cross and resurrection. When Christ opened the sixth seal we're reminded that everything written shall come to pass during this time given the earth to proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth. The sixth seal is a depiction of how this age of grace shall be and shall end when Christ returns the second time with great wrath.

The next vision John is given is of the 144,000 spiritual firstfruits (Rev 14) being sealed by the Spirit of Christ. They were symbolically under the altar, (Rev 6) having died believing the Messiah would come to redeem them. Now they have been sealed since Christ defeated death, and they ascended to heaven a living spiritual body of believers. When John writes of the seventh seal being opened, there is silence in heaven for a brief time (half an hour). Then John is shown seven angels with seven trumpets that have been sounding throughout the earth in this age of time. Only when the seventh trumpet begins to sound shall all that is written be finished and the Kingdom of God complete. And time shall be no longer, because the age of eternal life on the new earth shall begin.

 

[covenantee]

Well no actually. I never found the need to. I just go to a post and sense what is there. It works great usually. However I have found that if there is an earthquake within a hundred miles it can mess me up.

The question was rhetorical. You answered it before I asked it.

 

[covenantee]

The principal that you use for your forcing everything Jesus said into the 1st century and 70 A.D is the same principle as saying that Babylon was destroyed hundreds of years before the time of Christ and the same language was used by the prophets who prophesied Babylon's destruction that was used in the Revelation for the destruction of Babylon the Great, therefore what's written in the Revelation about Babylon the Great is talking about something that occurred thousands of years earlier.

What's written in the Revelation about the coming destruction of Babylon the Great is as much future as is what Jesus said about the end of the Age and his return in the Olivet Discourse. When He spoke about what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 70 A.D He used the word "wrath", but when He used the words "tribulation" and "persecution" He was talking about what the living stones of the New Testament Temple are going to experience at the end of the Age and time of His return.

Otherwise your total inconsistency with how you choose to interpret prophetic passages of scripture is exposed.​

You still refuse to address the historical evidence.

Why?

 

[David in NJ]

You still refuse to address the historical evidence.

Why?

70 AD did not fulfill all of the prophecies from OT Daniel.

It did fulfill the words of Christ when He said that the Temple was going to be destroyed.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;

"Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”"

 

[covenantee]

70 AD did not fulfill all of the prophecies from OT Daniel.

It did fulfill the words of Christ when He said that the Temple was going to be destroyed.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;

"Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”"

True. It did not fulfill Daniel 9:24.

Calvary did that.

 

[rwb]

I would say that the tribulation of the saints under Nero which occurred just a few years before the destruction of the temple was far greater than anything the saints would have endured during the Roman siege of Jerusalem, because the saints would have known (Luke 21:20-24) that when they see those armies gathering around Jerusalem, they need to get out of Jerusalem and Judea.

Josephus writes that the Romans in the days of the siege (before the walls were breached) repeatedly offered any Jews who chose to leave Jerusalem amnesty and safe passage if they left.

Besides this, every verse in the New Testament talking about tribulation or affliction is talking about the tribulation of apostles or of the saints, except two - one where Paul says God will repay the world with tribulation (at the time of Christ's return) for the tribulation the world brought upon the saints, and one where Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish upon all who practice evil.

All the other verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation or affliction or persecution are talking about what apostles and saints experience in the world.

I believe the wrath of God that came against the apostate nation was spoken by Christ as being "great tribulation" for the Jewish nation even as it would be for the Church. That wasn't the same kind of "great tribulation" that would come against the Church as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world, but it was for apostate Jews "great tribulation" none the less. It was for that reason Christ told them when they began to have understanding of the wrath that was coming upon "this people" they should flee.

I know where Scripture speaks of "great tribulation" it is speaking of that which comes against the building of the spiritual Kingdom of God to the Church as She takes the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. Great tribulation, affliction, and persecution is the lot in this life for those who are called Christians. And the Olivet Discourse is not an exception. I'm simply saying that Christ is warning His Jewish disciples not to put their confidence or hope in Jerusalem and the Temple because they will not last. They too shall endure "great tribulation" that shall come to them because they turned away from God, and gave themselves over to spiritual adultery and fornication. For that the city and Temple had already become an abomination unto the Lord, and God would keep His promise to utterly destroy them.

Romans 2:8-11 (KJV) But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

Knowing that tribulation and anguish is promised to every man who does evil, both Jew and Gentile alike, I believe "great tribulation" Christ spoke of would come not only through God's wrath against the nation of Israel, but also "great tribulation" that would come to Christ's body, the Church as She faithfully carries out Her mandate to preach the Gospel unto every nation of the world, and then shall the end of time come to this earth.

To try and limit "great tribulation" Christ spoke of to only 70 AD or to the end of this age, I believe causes contradiction. For this reason I believe Christ is warning His Jewish disciples of "great tribulation" that would come not only against the nation of Israel, but also be their lot throughout their lifetimes.

 

[rwb]

It doesn't in the King James that I have. But it makes no difference, because "the" appears in verse 29 in reference to the same tribulation mentioned in verse 21, and verses 29-31 make it abundantly clear that the tribulation being spoken about will occur at the time of the end in the days immediately preceding His return - at least 1.953 years too late for A.D70.

If "great tribulation" has not already been the fate for Christ's body; the Church/Christians, how do you explain "great tribulation" that has been, is, and shall always be the lot in life for people of faith? Has there ever been any other entity upon the earth to have suffered more than the people of Christ, and yet continue to grow and even thrive? There has never been, nor shall there ever be any other entity that will endure the greatest evil ever to have existed! Only the Church/Christians who not even physical death can prevent from being in the spiritual Kingdom of God, because the life we receive through Him is already ETERNAL!

 

[rwb]

70 AD did not fulfill all of the prophecies from OT Daniel.

It did fulfill the words of Christ when He said that the Temple was going to be destroyed.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;

"Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”"

It is those words of adoration for the Temple and buildings that help me to understand when Christ warns His disciples of the coming "great tribulation" He was speaking of both the destruction of the city and Temple, as well as "great tribulation" that is ordained to them and whosoever in Christ that proclaims the Gospel unto all the earth. Christ told them of the destruction coming to the nation so His Jewish disciples would stop looking to Jerusalem and the Temple as though they were still holy places to God.

 

[ewq1938]

Satan has human agents.

Whatever satan does in Rev 12, it is after the ascension of Christ and before the tribulation. He tries to harm the woman Israel, and fails so he goes after the remnant of her seed.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well you refused to engage in discussion about the scriptures I quoted when I quoted them in response to your question as to why I made a certain statement in a post.

I would like to know when and where I did that ~ or where you think I did that. No idea what you’re talking about here.

It's not very scholarly of you.

LOL! What’s not “scholarly” of me, FOTG? I mean, not to give the impression that I think of myself in any kind of conceited or puffed up way, but my goodness.

Nor is attacking me…

I’m not attacking you in any way. Wow.

because you do not want to discuss the scriptures I gave you to show why I said what I said in a post…

I would be delighted to discuss any Scripture you like, Fullness of the Gentiles. But you responding to a simple, personal question in a non-conversational way was the issue. I asked you a simple question and ~ not to say anything disrespectful in any way of God’s Word (or you) - you responded in, really, a non sequitur way.

Now you seem to be trying to deflect your way out of it, trying to fault me for exactly what you did. Incredible, really.

This is going around in circles.

No, it’s just not going the way you want it to. :). And, frankly, making you look… kinda bad…. :)

I'm not going to respond to any more of your accusations about whether or not I answered your question.

Well that’s probably a good idea… :)

Nor any more of your attacks.

None of those have come from me… I can certainly understand your defensiveness, though. :)

God bless.

LOL! Sure. Thanks.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[David in NJ]

It is those words of adoration for the Temple and buildings that help me to understand when Christ warns His disciples of the coming "great tribulation" He was speaking of both the destruction of the city and Temple, as well as "great tribulation" that is ordained to them and whosoever in Christ that proclaims the Gospel unto all the earth. Christ told them of the destruction coming to the nation so His Jewish disciples would stop looking to Jerusalem and the Temple as though they were still holy places to God.

i pray that all Blood Washed Saints would come to understand this.

 

[Timtofly]

You brought up yourself as the final authority over God's Word.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Josephus

No hint necessary.

Now you are just plain lying. You keep avoiding your own post, and cannot even defend your own points. You can take Josephus over me as he was there, and I was not. But that is not the point. The point is you are putting the authority of Josephus over God's Word. You claim Josephus knows more about prophecy than Jesus, Paul, or John. You have settled on the words of Josephus and are stuck in the past. To you there is nothing left to happen, as Josephus has settled it all for you. You rely more on the words of Josephus, than the actual Word of God.

It seems you want the final authority over God's Word more than me. So you can stop with the lies.