The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

That's a strange statement, especially that Christ's Church (all those who are in Christ) is (are) currently enduring and persevering through ~ by God's power through His Holy Spirit ~ these times of tribulation. Even in all this, Christ is with us by His Spirit to the end, even as He promised. God certainly never promises to remove us from tribulation but rather to never to leave nor forsake us... to always be with us through it, sustaining us and keeping us to the end. And not only that, but to work all things together ~ all things ~ for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Indeed, we serve a great and awesome God.

Grace and peace to all.

ok, i am trying to see where you are doctrinally.
So you claim the church goes through the trib.
Any rapture in the mix?
I am sure you will just give a smart alec snarky reply, but i will take a chance.

Mine is easy. pretrib rapture,7 yrs or so in heaven, return on white horses and slaughter th beast and false prophet,then on into the mil
Which i am sure has me as the devil himself in your book.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you believe Moses and Elijah are in flesh bodies right now?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

ok, i am trying to see where you are doctrinally.

I don't believe you.

So you claim the church goes through the trib.

Well, what you understand as "the trib" is different my understanding of tribulation, but beyond that, just to answer your question, yes.

Any rapture in the mix?

No. Unless... maybe we can call our being caught up together with the dead in Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air in His return a "rapture," and if we do, then yes. But no.

Mine is easy. pretrib rapture,7 yrs or so in heaven, return on white horses and slaughter th beast and false prophet,then on into the mil

Yes, I know.

Which i am sure has me as the devil himself in your book.

In the whole scheme of things, Rebuilder, it's not really that important that any of us get our eschatology all right. None of us is "better" than any other.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Jesus made many analogies.

He did, yes. Well... this is a technicality, I guess, but really similes, actually, as in, "The Kingdom of heaven is like..."

All of them were judged and butchered by naysayers and even the saints of today.

Hmm...

There is no such thing as a perfect analogy. But i did come close in the strict point by point of the flood and the rapture.

So you think; I understand. Both your understanding of that and my disagreement your understanding are very well documented. I maintain ~ according to Jesus's own words ~ that you make something of what He said about the days of Noah far beyond His intention/point in making the assertion that He did.

If you stick closely to what i said, not what you ADDED , it is a perfect analogy.

I quoted Him directly, and did not add anything. You, however, did (as all dispensationalists do, at least in this one instance). See above.

Ark..a type of heaven

The ark is a type, a shadow, of Jesus, not heaven.

Noah enters prejudgement... Noah carried above the earth... noah high above the earth DURING THE JUDGEMENT... noah returns post judgement.

Vivid pattern of the pretrib rapture Gathering

Noah obediently does all that God commands Him to do ~ like Abraham, Noah's having believed God is credited to him as righteousness ~ and God, having judged Noah in this way, sustains Noah's life even in the midst of His carrying that judgment out on disobedient mankind. Then, God renews with Noah the covenant of life that he made with Adam centuries before.

Just regarding (1) judgment generally and (2) the final Judgment, Rebuilder:

(1) We all receive judgments rather than blessing from time to time; for us Christians, we know that God disciplines the ones He loves.

(2) We will all ~ all; believer and unbeliever alike ~ be judged at the end of the age according to what we have done. The difference for us as believers, Rebuilder, is that we will have an Advocate, by Whom and through Whom we will be judged favorably... as opposed to unbelievers, who will stand alone in the Judgment, not in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), but on their own righteousness and not that of Jesus. Unbelievers will not stand in the Judgment.

There actually is a correct typology of this whole thing, and it is repeated in different ways throughout Scripture, and that is that God sustains and protects His people even in the midst of "storms" and chaos and tribulation and trial, and delivers us through it all. And our "ark," as I said, is our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. In this way, Rebuilder, tribulation is a very different thing than judgment. For us as believers, this tribulation is ~ all the trials we endure are ~ actually a grace of God given to us to, as James says, test our faith, and this testing produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, that we will be made perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. This is God doing His work in us, and we know, as Paul wrote to the Philippians, that God, having begun this good work in us, will ~ will, not "might" ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ. And then we will fully receive life... just like Noah, except then, true eternal life. And Noah will be right there with us. :)

yes as we are, and as Jesus declared and framed the flood story PREJUDGEMENT...WITH Noah ABOVE THE EARTH during the trib.
But it gets worse for you Guys because Jesus also used Lot who was also relocated PREJUDGEMENT.

You're doing the same thing with Lot's story as you are with Noah's, making something much different of it than what it is meant to convey. Jesus said virtually the same thing about the days of Lot, even correlating Lot's story to Noah's. And Lot obediently "relocated" himself (and his family). Lot's wife, thought... you remember what happened when she looked back, I'm sure... Like Noah, Lot will be right there with us in the final Judgment and beyond. :)

"Gets worse for you guys"... LOL! No, Lot's believing God was credited to him as righteousness also, just like Noah and Abraham.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Heaven is part of creation.

Not right now... One day, though, heaven and earth will one again. :) The heavens ~ all the stars and planets and moons and stuff, sure, but Heaven itself? No...

That water that came down to flood the earth was even above heaven. So obviously the water went through heaven and the ark went above earth into heaven.

LOL! Very "interesting"... :)

People take oxygen with them to climb Mount Everest.

Come on, man. Don't be ridiculous. The climb is arduous, and the air gets pretty thin, sure. But folks can breathe up there.

And Noah didn't have to do any kind of physical exertion, so he wouldn't have ever been out of breath and... needed... oxygen... LOL!

Moses wrote there was water above heaven.

Above the firmament. Do you imagine the firmament to be heaven, Timtofly? If so... oh my stars... LOL!

Since you seem to have no thought on where heaven starts and the height of Noah's Ark, I will take God's Word over your opinion or lack thereof.

"The same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

So the water that was above Heaven came down to fill the earth. Earth and Heaven form the same creation.

According to you going to the moon is not leaving earth either. The moon is in the firmament and the water that came down, was above the firmament, and above the sun and moon. If heaven is not where the sun and moon are, then the sun and moon are part of the earth and not heaven. Anything outside of this firmament and the earth is outside of creation, and in eternity. Do we know that all the water came down or is there still water up there?

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so."

Yeah, again, you're conflating what God and we after Him call "the heavens" with Heaven itself, which is just silly. Good grief.

I have driven through Denver.

Well, at least you at one time experienced reality, but where are you now? LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Ark..a type of heaven
Noah enters prejudgement
Noah carried above the earth
noah high above the earth DURING THE JUDGEMENT
noah returns post judgement.

Vivid pattern of the pretrib rapture Gathering

Your 'ark' then, is just a belief that God will rapture you away before His terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Isn't that idea rather presumptuous?

I put it to you; what does the Lord think of those who prejudge themselves? Who fondly imagine they are good enough to go to live in heaven before any trials and testing?
God is our Creator, He made the earth for our home, He has angels to serve Him in heaven.
It is clear from Revelation 12:14 & 17, that the Christian peoples remain on earth during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Using Noah as an example of a 'rapture to heaven; is a joke. What animals will you take to heaven with you?
Humans going to heaven is impossible and can never happen. John 3:13 After all of Gods 7000 years Plan for mankind is over, then He comes to the renewed earth to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-1=7

 

[Timtofly]

Not right now... One day, though, heaven and earth will one again. :) The heavens ~ all the stars and planets and moons and stuff, sure, but Heaven itself? No...


LOL! Very "interesting"... :)


Come on, man. Don't be ridiculous. The climb is arduous, and the air gets pretty thin, sure. But folks can breathe up there.

And Noah didn't have to do any kind of physical exertion, so he wouldn't have ever been out of breath and... needed... oxygen... LOL!


Above the firmament. Do you imagine the firmament to be heaven, Timtofly? If so... oh my stars... LOL!


Yeah, again, you're conflating what God and we after Him call "the heavens" with Heaven itself, which is just silly. Good grief.


Well, at least you at one time experienced reality, but where are you now? LOL!

Grace and peace to you.

I would take my breathing apparatus off for a picture as well. The other person looked like he was going to wait a minute.

I am just sticking to Scripture. Obviously you have your own thoughts of heaven you got from someplace other than God's Word.

I even quoted the verses that define Heaven.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:1-2 is talking about the fall (desolate) of the Old Testament congregation which the Lord's body represented. The rest of the Olivet Discourse refers to the fall of the New Testament congregation, the church, prior to the Second Coming, in a spiritual sense.

I Disagree

The Olivet discourse clearly answers "The Literal Signs" that will precede the Lords "Future" second coming in the heavens

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes, this is a common tactic of some when attempting to understand the prophetic words of Christ from the Mt of Olives. It's symbolic when that fits your doctrinal point of view, but when it doesn't it must be interpreted literally! Which is why I disagree with your claim! You want it both spiritual when literal doesn't fit, and literal when spiritual won't cut it. That's known as reading one's doctrine into the text!

A perfect description of a poster looking into the mirror of their own accusations

 

[PinSeeker]

I would take my breathing apparatus off for a picture as well. The other person looked like he was going to wait a minute.

LOL!

I am just sticking to Scripture.

Oh, everybody here says that... :) And I'm sure you think you really are... :) The problem is the nutty context... or, "typology"... you're applying to it.

Obviously you have your own thoughts of heaven you got from someplace other than God's Word.

LOL! The crazy thing is, you're not even talking about heaven... but somehow think you are.

I even quoted the verses that define Heaven.

"Right." :)

As I have said, Timtofly, you're posts are, for the most part, anyway, very... interesting...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL! The crazy thing is, you're not even talking about heaven... but somehow think you are.

Yet you have literally no Scripture to back up your interpretation. Actually you are trying to create Scripture from your opinion to even get to an interpretation.

Genesis 1 clearly states that the firmament is Heaven. Then David elaborates and claims God's throne is that heaven and the earth is the footstool. Literally the earth is the base of that throne.

Obviously you have something else in mind. Since you won't even give us what you are thinking, what else is there to go by?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your 'ark' then, is just a belief that God will rapture you away before His terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Isn't that idea rather presumptuous?

I put it to you; what does the Lord think of those who prejudge themselves? Who fondly imagine they are good enough to go to live in heaven before any trials and testing?
God is our Creator, He made the earth for our home, He has angels to serve Him in heaven.
It is clear from Revelation 12:14 & 17, that the Christian peoples remain on earth during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Using Noah as an example of a 'rapture to heaven; is a joke. What animals will you take to heaven with you?
Humans going to heaven is impossible and can never happen. John 3:13 After all of Gods 7000 years Plan for mankind is over, then He comes to the renewed earth to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-1=7

Not at all.
I am pointing to the parallels.
Which you were unable to refute.
Your reply is simply batting the air.
It would be like me pointing to Moses brass serpent on a pole as a vivid depiction of healing by Jesus sacrifice on a cross, and you saying something like " if you think moses is pointing to Jesus...that is a joke".
IOW missing a no brainer as you did in Noah.

Yet you have literally no Scripture to back up your interpretation. Actually you are trying to create Scripture from your opinion to even get to an interpretation.

Genesis 1 clearly states that the firmament is Heaven. Then David elaborates and claims God's throne is that heaven and the earth is the footstool. Literally the earth is the base of that throne.

Obviously you have something else in mind. Since you won't even give us what you are thinking, what else is there to go by?

yes
There are 3 levels of "heavens".
The atmosphere being the first heaven.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yet you have literally no Scripture to back up your interpretation.

So you think, I'm sure. I've been speaking to you regarding the very Scriptures you have been talking about. You have other Scriptures that you think back up your take on Genesis 6 and 7? Other than what Jesus says in Matthew and Luke concerning the days of Noah and Lot, respectively? Come on, Timtofly. We all have the same Bible, and we're all talking about the same Scripture passages.

Actually you are trying to create Scripture from your opinion to even get to an interpretation.

I would ~ and do ~ say the exact same thing to you. Precisely the same thing.

Genesis 1 clearly states that the firmament is Heaven.

No, it doesn't. It is talking about what we call the heavens, but that is very different than Heaven, where Jesus sits at the right hand of God (at present). There are many different words in Scripture that mean different things because of the context they are used in.

Then David elaborates and claims God's throne is that heaven and the earth is the footstool.

This, Timtofly, is what we call poetry. The imagery there certainly conveys great truths. They are psalms... all one hundred and fifty of them. This... is not... nor is any other like it... the planet earth:

Literally the earth is the base of that throne.

Yes, in the sense that this planet (and all others, indeed the universe) is ~ and we are ~ under His Sovereign Kingship.

Obviously you have something else in mind.

Something different than you, yes. Thanks be to God for that... :)

Since you won't even give us what you are thinking, what else is there to go by?

Oh, I've been very clear and thorough in relating my thoughts. And refuting yours. Very often ~ even explicitly, as has often been the case in my responses here ~ if one refutes one thing, he/she is asserting and/or affirming the opposite of that one thing.

There are 3 levels of "heavens". The atmosphere being the first heaven.

The "hits" just keep coming... LOL!

Grace and peace to both of you.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Olivet discourse clearly answers "The Literal Signs" that will precede the Lords "Future" second coming in the heavens

What literal signs are you talking about? Let me guess, the signs in the sun moon, and stars? How will they be fulfilled literally, really, before the Second Coming of Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your 'ark' then, is just a belief that God will rapture you away before His terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Isn't that idea rather presumptuous?

I put it to you; what does the Lord think of those who prejudge themselves? Who fondly imagine they are good enough to go to live in heaven before any trials and testing?
God is our Creator, He made the earth for our home, He has angels to serve Him in heaven.
It is clear from Revelation 12:14 & 17, that the Christian peoples remain on earth during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns.

Using Noah as an example of a 'rapture to heaven; is a joke. What animals will you take to heaven with you?
Humans going to heaven is impossible and can never happen. John 3:13 After all of Gods 7000 years Plan for mankind is over, then He comes to the renewed earth to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-1=7

Take it up with Jesus he used noah as a prejudgment dynamic of his return.
lot removed prejudgment
The baby Jesus removed prejudgment
AD 70 Christians fled Jerusalem prejudgment.
Jesus commanded "pray that you will be COUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world....."
Maybe omitting is a dead end

 

[rebuilder 454]

He did, yes. Well... this is a technicality, I guess, but really similes, actually, as in, "The Kingdom of heaven is like..."


Hmm...


So you think; I understand. Both your understanding of that and my disagreement your understanding are very well documented. I maintain ~ according to Jesus's own words ~ that you make something of what He said about the days of Noah far beyond His intention/point in making the assertion that He did.


I quoted Him directly, and did not add anything. You, however, did (as all dispensationalists do, at least in this one instance). See above.


The ark is a type, a shadow, of Jesus, not heaven.


Noah obediently does all that God commands Him to do ~ like Abraham, Noah's having believed God is credited to him as righteousness ~ and God, having judged Noah in this way, sustains Noah's life even in the midst of His carrying that judgment out on disobedient mankind. Then, God renews with Noah the covenant of life that he made with Adam centuries before.

Just regarding (1) judgment generally and (2) the final Judgment, Rebuilder:

(1) We all receive judgments rather than blessing from time to time; for us Christians, we know that God disciplines the ones He loves.

(2) We will all ~ all; believer and unbeliever alike ~ be judged at the end of the age according to what we have done. The difference for us as believers, Rebuilder, is that we will have an Advocate, by Whom and through Whom we will be judged favorably... as opposed to unbelievers, who will stand alone in the Judgment, not in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), but on their own righteousness and not that of Jesus. Unbelievers will not stand in the Judgment.

There actually is a correct typology of this whole thing, and it is repeated in different ways throughout Scripture, and that is that God sustains and protects His people even in the midst of "storms" and chaos and tribulation and trial, and delivers us through it all. And our "ark," as I said, is our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. In this way, Rebuilder, tribulation is a very different thing than judgment. For us as believers, this tribulation is ~ all the trials we endure are ~ actually a grace of God given to us to, as James says, test our faith, and this testing produces steadfastness, which will have its full effect, that we will be made perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. This is God doing His work in us, and we know, as Paul wrote to the Philippians, that God, having begun this good work in us, will ~ will, not "might" ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ. And then we will fully receive life... just like Noah, except then, true eternal life. And Noah will be right there with us. :)


You're doing the same thing with Lot's story as you are with Noah's, making something much different of it than what it is meant to convey. Jesus said virtually the same thing about the days of Lot, even correlating Lot's story to Noah's. And Lot obediently "relocated" himself (and his family). Lot's wife, thought... you remember what happened when she looked back, I'm sure... Like Noah, Lot will be right there with us in the final Judgment and beyond. :)

"Gets worse for you guys"... LOL! No, Lot's believing God was credited to him as righteousness also, just like Noah and Abraham.

Grace and peace to you.

Lol
You proved you have no postjudgement gathering.
Where is your gathering post judgement???
yeah we can all see no gathering post judgement

you can not refute what i posted
But keep trying.

 

[Timtofly]

That is not the footstool mentioned by David.

I know that you interpret Scripture according to human science. Obviously you are not going to admit that point.

I point out Scripture, and then you point out that is not what God meant.

 

[Keraz]

Take it up with Jesus he used noah as a prejudgment dynamic of his return.
lot removed prejudgment
The baby Jesus removed prejudgment
AD 70 Christians fled Jerusalem prejudgment.
Jesus commanded "pray that you will be COUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world....."
Maybe omitting is a dead end

But 1 Peter 4:12-19 plainly states that we must face trials and testing in order to be found worthy. When the fiery test comes, we are told to stand firm in our faith and to call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved.
James 1:12 Happy is he who stands up to trial. Having passed that test, he will receive in reward the life that God has Promised.

So any idea of an unexpected and anytime pre-trib 'rapture to heaven', is false and cannot happen.

In Matthew 24:37-41, -those taken and those left; is paralleled by Jesus to be the same as Noah and the Ark, where those taken were drowned and those left floated on the waters and survived.

Your confident assertions of a rapture, are just wishful thinking and contradict much scripture.
I look forward to the Day the Lord will act to destroy His enemies and then Promises to Bless His faithful peoples, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy land.

 

[Truth7t7]

What literal signs are you talking about? Let me guess, the signs in the sun moon, and stars? How will they be fulfilled literally, really, before the Second Coming of Lord Jesus Christ?

It's not just the 3 items mentioned in the literal sun, stars, moon, as you suggest, there are 10+ things seen "in this literal world", Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, nations, Christians being hated and killed, false prophets deceiving, on and on and on!

You're not going to take all the "Literal Signs and Things seen" in this world, and with the wave of your magic wand, claim it's the "Symbolic" New Testament church in its representation "Laughable"!

Matthew 24:6-9KJV
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It's not just the 3 items mentioned in the heavens in the sun, stars, moon, as you suggest, there are 10+ things seen "in this literal world", Wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes, Christians being hated and killed, false prophets deceiving, on and on and on!

You're not going to take all the "Literal Signs" in this world presented, and with the wave of your magic wand, claim it's the New Testament church falling away "Laughable"!

Matthew 24:6-9KJV
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

This only proved my position that you lack spiritual discernment.

Again Matthew 24:6-9 has to do with the spiritual condition of the New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming. For example:

Wars: Wars between God's Elect and Professed Christians/false prophets and christs for the control of the church (remember Satan wage war against Two Witnesses and wear out the saints in Revelation 11 and Daniel 8?)

Famines: Not literal foods but spiritual famines! Lack of hearing the Truth in the church. Amos 8:11

Pestilences: Not COVID or literal disease. Rather it is a spiritual sickness that people of the congregation cannot find Christ to be healed (saved).
Earthquakes: Not literal movement of the earth but rather the shaking of the foundation of the congregation as God judges her. it signifies that she have lost her kingdom representation. Just like you said about Old Testament congregation, Israel. Remember when Israel lost her kingdom representation the moment Christ died the cross, and the rock rent (earthquake). Likewise to the New Testament congregation.

Spiritual discerned.
Now, explain to us how you believe the sun, moon and stars out there in space will be fulfilled literally in your interpretation. Or do you want me to explain to you with a magic wand through Scripture? :-)