Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?

[Godslittleservant]

It doesn't say the signs ended or not. If you are going to use this passage, you should stay consistent. It is all one context. YTou need to show where these signs are recorded as ended.

first we need to understand what the signs were for it is important that we understand.
Mark 16:17-20
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
see in verse 20 it is clears this up these signs were confirming the word as it says
why do the words need confirming is clear Jesus was just put to death and everyone needed confirmation that hat his Apostles were saying was actually from God. The new testament is now being written with signs confirming it is from God.

now ask your self does God need to keep confirming what was written was from Him or do we take it by faith that what he had recorded is his words.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Ephesians 4:11-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

see we only had the signs to build the church give time to record the written word by which we live by today for 1 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so according to scripture it said ALL scripture is given God is no longer recording scripture no need to confirm he is done writing scripture the gifts are no longer need

 

[Ronald Nolette]

first we need to understand what the signs were for it is important that we understand.
Mark 16:17-20
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
see in verse 20 it is clears this up these signs were confirming the word as it says
why do the words need confirming is clear Jesus was just put to death and everyone needed confirmation that hat his Apostles were saying was actually from God. The new testament is now being written with signs confirming it is from God.

now ask your self does God need to keep confirming what was written was from Him or do we take it by faith that what he had recorded is his words.

Well despite your philosophical reasoning about how and why or how long these signs will last, all the Scripture here says is that these signs will follow those who believe.

God confirms the death and resurrection of Jesus as the sole means of salvation every time one gets saved!

see we only had the signs to build the church give time to record the written word by which we live by today for 1 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

so according to scripture it said ALL scripture is given God is no longer recording scripture no need to confirm he is done writing scripture the gifts are no longer need

Well your conclusions are not borne out by the Scriptures you cited. they only say that they will cease. They do not give the time frame or reason for when they cease.

Especially the Ephesians passage.

1 Have the church come ot the unity of Fatih?

2. Is the church perfected yet?

3. Is the church complete yet?

4. Do we no more get tossed to and for by every wind of doctrine?

Corinthians opens the possibility of the "charismatic gifts" ceasing but Ephesians testifies against your premise they have ceased.

Prophecy in the nT is teaching with understanding. Has that ceased?

2. Has God ceased healing people?

3. I know tongues is grossly abused and misunderstood, but has edifying oneself in the faith ceased?

YOu seem to pick and choose which gifts of the Spirit are still active and have ceased.

But the gifts were not connected to the writing of the Word. They were recorded as to certain groups in a specific time frame were given the Holy spirit after it went to the Jew first.

1. After Jews heard the gospel, it was then sent to the Samartians, and Peter confiimred it for they as yet were unsaved (they did not have the Holy Spirit yet.

2. then Peter opened the door with the keysa of the kingdom to the gentiles when He went to Cornelius. After these doors were opneded by Peter (jews, Samaritans and Gentiles) then there was no need to for the double effort, for poeter opened the dsoor as Jesus commande dHim and then all who accepted the gospel immediately received the Spirit.

If you do not accept that, then what do you believe are the keys Jesus gave to Peter and what were their purpose?

 

[Godslittleservant]

Well despite your philosophical reasoning about how and why or how long these signs will last, all the Scripture here says is that these signs will follow those who believe.

God confirms the death and resurrection of Jesus as the sole means of salvation every time one gets saved!

Well your conclusions are not borne out by the Scriptures you cited. they only say that they will cease. They do not give the time frame or reason for when they cease.

Especially the Ephesians passage.

1 Have the church come ot the unity of Fatih?

2. Is the church perfected yet?

3. Is the church complete yet?

4. Do we no more get tossed to and for by every wind of doctrine?

Corinthians opens the possibility of the "charismatic gifts" ceasing but Ephesians testifies against your premise they have ceased.

Prophecy in the nT is teaching with understanding. Has that ceased?

2. Has God ceased healing people?

3. I know tongues is grossly abused and misunderstood, but has edifying oneself in the faith ceased?

YOu seem to pick and choose which gifts of the Spirit are still active and have ceased.

But the gifts were not connected to the writing of the Word. They were recorded as to certain groups in a specific time frame were given the Holy spirit after it went to the Jew first.

1. After Jews heard the gospel, it was then sent to the Samartians, and Peter confiimred it for they as yet were unsaved (they did not have the Holy Spirit yet.

2. then Peter opened the door with the keysa of the kingdom to the gentiles when He went to Cornelius. After these doors were opneded by Peter (jews, Samaritans and Gentiles) then there was no need to for the double effort, for poeter opened the dsoor as Jesus commande dHim and then all who accepted the gospel immediately received the Spirit.

If you do not accept that, then what do you believe are the keys Jesus gave to Peter and what were their purpose?

Lets look at this again Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

If we are to take the word for truth it tells us right here it tells what the signs were for. It says they were confirming the word of God. What word were they confirming the old testament or the writing of the new testament which we know was not if force at this time but was in process of being recorded.
Now ask your self with an open heart for truth Is God still having to confirm his word today or do we by faith believe in the written word he had recorded what do you think can he have finished the new testament that was being recorded so the we by it can have the faith we need to be his children by faith or does he still need to work signs to get you to believe?

I have shown you what I believe the answer is to the question so I will step back and let you work it out for yourself but if I can answer any questions to help just feel free to ask.

 

[Godslittleservant]

1 Have the church come ot the unity of Fatih? When the Apostles were spreading the gospel yes they were all speaking the same thing they were all speaking the oracles of God My question to you is Do you not think God could have accomplished this? Maybe you are not giving enough credit maybe the way he sees things is different than you just thinking out loud here you do not have to answer this.

2. Is the church perfected yet? Maybe at that time it was but it was warned that men would corrupt the church and it looks like maybe that prophecy came true.

3. Is the church complete yet? Yes it is i but has some turned from the doctrine once delivered that is a big yes If you think it is not then you call God a liar because he said upon this rock will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against. So His church is strong as ever but man has splintered and made their own to satisfy their itching ears just as prophesied.

4. Do we no more get tossed to and for by every wind of doctrine? At that time yes but in these days because of man sadly it is yes man has made too many churches in their liking and as prophesied has left the true teaching of God's word. I am not saying this to point fingers or be judgmental but it is the truth and we have to accept it.


2. Has God ceased healing people? God is not healing in the way of the signs today you do not seeing the dead arise and walk or ears being replaced or the lame getting up from their wheelchairs and walking out of the blue or people going to someone on the death bed and they immediately get up and dance God heals through prayer today and it might not be the same day it may be gradual or it could be rapid but it is not as the signs were.

You said "YOu seem to pick and choose which gifts of the Spirit are still active and have ceased." I really don't, that is your opinion what I do is try to repeat what the scriptures point out but you can keep your opinion of me if it makes you feel better.

But the gifts were not connected to the writing of the Word. They were recorded as to certain groups in a specific time frame were given the Holy spirit after it went to the Jew first. That is your interpretation I see that the scripture clearly makes the connection but that is something you will need to study to show yourself approved.

1. After Jews heard the gospel, it was then sent to the Samartians, and Peter confiimred it for they as yet were unsaved (they did not have the Holy Spirit yet. I have already dealt with this claim through the posting either here or on other threads can't remember for sure where I dealt with it but if you have been following me surely you have seen it if not let me know and I will repeat it.
2. then Peter opened the door with the keysa of the kingdom to the gentiles when He went to Cornelius. After these doors were opneded by Peter (jews, Samaritans and Gentiles) then there was no need to for the double effort, for poeter opened the dsoor as Jesus commande dHim and then all who accepted the gospel immediately received the Spirit.

If you do not accept that, then what do you believe are the keys Jesus gave to Peter and what were their purpose?

I agree somewhat to what you said there but I would have said that the keys Peter was given had nothing to with the signs to come but the Faith when Jesus asked who do you say that I am and he answered thou art the Christ the son of the living God

Matthew 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Peter used those keys on Pentecost and only on Pentecost the gentiles and Samaritans were added to the same church Peter used the keys on on the day of Pentecost the signs Peter used on the Samaritans and the gentiles were not the key but signs to prove that God was adding them to the church Jesus built on the day of Pentecost


hope that helps answer your question and you can see the scriptural reasoning behind my understanding. If you need me to clarify anything in that response please just ask and I will do my best to make it more clear.

 

[Godslittleservant]

Very good post, thanks.
I just have one comment.

The situation in Samaria was the first time I recall the use of the laying on of hands to impart the Holy Spirit,
which is common now, but have been a first back then.

Seems to me that John and Peter were attempting to fix the problem of those who were baptized that hadn't received an outpouring
as had happened at Pentecost with the 3,000 that had been baptized and HAD received the Holy Spirit outpouring.1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Acts 6:1-6
1 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.
3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

This is the first time after Acts 2 the power as transferred and the why is given to grow the church and release the Apostles to go forth and spread the message and plant more churches through out the world Christ had commissioned them to do

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lets look at this again Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

If we are to take the word for truth it tells us right here it tells what the signs were for. It says they were confirming the word of God. What word were they confirming the old testament or the writing of the new testament which we know was not if force at this time but was in process of being recorded.
Now ask your self with an open heart for truth Is God still having to confirm his word today or do we by faith believe in the written word he had recorded what do you think can he have finished the new testament that was being recorded so the we by it can have the faith we need to be his children by faith or does he still need to work signs to get you to believe?

I have shown you what I believe the answer is to the question so I will step back and let you work it out for yourself but if I can answer any questions to help just feel free to ask.

Well did the Corinthians need signs for confirming? Paul spent a whole chapter on the "charismatic gifts" and it was for order in teh church and not for confirming the word of God.

How about in the over 400 dialects and tongues that have never heard the gospel once in todays world? Does God not want to confirm HIs Word to them with power?

Everyone in the first century was speaking that word. wasn't that enough power without a scroll? After all Paul said in Romans 1 that he was not ashamed of the gospel for the gospel is the power of God to salvation. and all He had was the spoken word!

So the people who never heard in those days got signs and wonders when they heard the gospel (the spoken scripture) but the people today who never have heard the gospel and the hundreds of people groups who have no Scripture in their language are not entitled to have that confirmation now? YOU seem very unfair to the same people today as to the ones in the first century.

Besides, when Paul instructed the Corinthian church about the gifts, He not once mentioned confirmation.

1 Corinthians 12

King James Version

​

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It was not for confirming, but edifying the church!

YOu cannot link two differing events and put them as an all encompassing doctrine.

Once again, After Peter was given the keys ot the kingdom, we see Peter first preaching to the Jews after the church was born.

Then conferring the Spirit to the Samaratins whop heard and believed but were not baptized in te triune formula as commanded.

Then to the gentile worlds when he went to cornelius and unlocked the door fo the gospel to the gentiles as well.

What do you think the keys were for that were given to Peter? So he could have a neat key ring?

 

[Godslittleservant]

Well did the Corinthians need signs for confirming? Paul spent a whole chapter on the "charismatic gifts" and it was for order in teh church and not for confirming the word of God.

How about in the over 400 dialects and tongues that have never heard the gospel once in todays world? Does God not want to confirm HIs Word to them with power?

Everyone in the first century was speaking that word. wasn't that enough power without a scroll? After all Paul said in Romans 1 that he was not ashamed of the gospel for the gospel is the power of God to salvation. and all He had was the spoken word!

So the people who never heard in those days got signs and wonders when they heard the gospel (the spoken scripture) but the people today who never have heard the gospel and the hundreds of people groups who have no Scripture in their language are not entitled to have that confirmation now? YOU seem very unfair to the same people today as to the ones in the first century.

Besides, when Paul instructed the Corinthian church about the gifts, He not once mentioned confirmation.

1 Corinthians 12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

It was not for confirming, but edifying the church!

YOu cannot link two differing events and put them as an all encompassing doctrine.

Once again, After Peter was given the keys ot the kingdom, we see Peter first preaching to the Jews after the church was born.

Then conferring the Spirit to the Samaratins whop heard and believed but were not baptized in te triune formula as commanded.

Then to the gentile worlds when he went to cornelius and unlocked the door fo the gospel to the gentiles as well.

What do you think the keys were for that were given to Peter? So he could have a neat key ring?

Yes the gifts were for edifying growing the church but Paul tells you they are for a time and should not be craving the gifts but grow in love
The gifts will vanish but charity faith and hope abideth forever
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes the gifts were for edifying growing the church but Paul tells you they are for a time and should not be craving the gifts but grow in love
The gifts will vanish but charity faith and hope abideth forever
1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Yes gifts will cease. but no one has made a cogent argument for the when. Cessationists come up with all sorts of allegorical arguments as to the when in the past the gifts ceased, but these are based on taking the word of God and reinterpreting it through allegory to come to their conclusions.

I have noticed you have so far conveniently not answered the question of what you believe th ekeys given to Peter are and what about all the ethnic groups who have no bible in their languages and never heard the name of Jesus even once?

 

[Godslittleservant]

Yes gifts will cease. but no one has made a cogent argument for the when. Cessationists come up with all sorts of allegorical arguments as to the when in the past the gifts ceased, but these are based on taking the word of God and reinterpreting it through allegory to come to their conclusions.

I have noticed you have so far conveniently not answered the question of what you believe th ekeys given to Peter are and what about all the ethnic groups who have no bible in their languages and never heard the name of Jesus even once?

I Thought I had already answered this question if not sorry it was an oversight.
You asked
I have noticed you have so far conveniently not answered the question of what you believe th ekeys given to Peter are and what about all the ethnic groups who have no bible in their languages and never heard the name of Jesus even once?

My answer is that the keys given Peter to the church Jesus was going to build upon Peters confession of faith is the completed Gospel of Christ his death burial and resurrection

Matthew 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Jesus told Peter that he will build the church upon the confession of faith the words that he is teaching them all not part but is will not be until after his death when the mission his Farther has given the cross

Mathew 16:20-23
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The keys is the faith in the completed work of Christ His gospel unto mankind which Peter used on the day of Pentecost when for the first time the complete gospel was delivered which the cross was added to the beginning of the gospel Mark 1:1 the gospel is now complete and Peter opened the doors to the church with it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I Thought I had already answered this question if not sorry it was an oversight.
You asked
I have noticed you have so far conveniently not answered the question of what you believe th ekeys given to Peter are and what about all the ethnic groups who have no bible in their languages and never heard the name of Jesus even once?

My answer is that the keys given Peter to the church Jesus was going to build upon Peters confession of faith is the completed Gospel of Christ his death burial and resurrection

Matthew 16:13-19
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Jesus told Peter that he will build the church upon the confession of faith the words that he is teaching them all not part but is will not be until after his death when the mission his Farther has given the cross

Mathew 16:20-23
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The keys is the faith in the completed work of Christ His gospel unto mankind which Peter used on the day of Pentecost when for the first time the complete gospel was delivered which the cross was added to the beginning of the gospel Mark 1:1 the gospel is now complete and Peter opened the doors to the church with it.

and you make this connection how?

Please show how keys are the gospel message.

 

[Godslittleservant]

and you make this connection how?

Please show how keys are the gospel message.

I thought I had done so I have given you my answer so now please being it is clear you disagree please show me what your understanding is

 

[Lambano]

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
Just to be clear, I do not question whether the believers in Samaria had received
the "indwelling" Spirit when they believed. They were missing something else.

Acts 8:14-17 NIV
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-7 NIV
While Apollos was at Corinth,
Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus.
There he found some disciples 2 and asked them,
“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.
He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them,
and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
7 There were about twelve men in all.

I'll give you an answer that I don't like. Not that I have to like it.

Accepting the premise that the visible manifestations of the Spirit are "sign gifts", I infer that the purpose of these two little vignettes are to show the Samaritans and the Ephesians (and us) something. What are they showing us? They are demonstrating that Peter and John and later Paul have Apostolic authority.

I told you I didn't like it. I have authority issues.

 

[David in NJ]

I'll give you an answer that I don't like. Not that I have to like it.

Accepting the premise that the visible manifestations of the Spirit are "sign gifts", I infer that the purpose of these two little vignettes are to show the Samaritans and the Ephesians (and us) something. What are they showing us? They are demonstrating that Peter and John and later Paul have Apostolic authority.

(Here our Catholic brethren are going, "Yessssssss!", with a fist pump.)

I told you I didn't like it. I have authority issues.

The Apostles John, Peter, Paul and the others were chosen by Christ = there is nothing to not like.

The RCC have "false apostles" = stay away from them

True Apostles confirm the words of Christ and the Prophets, whereas 'false apostles' create their own religion such as RCC and other.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Here are the facts:
1) Those in Samaria were believers (had accepted the word of God)
2) They had received baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water baptism)
3) But the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them. (had not yet "come on" any of them?)
4) Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. (prayed for them)

Why hadn't the baptized believers in Samaria received the Holy Spirit?
They were water baptized believers in the Lord Jesus.

- There was evidence that they were believers. (as stated in the text)
- There was evidence that they had been water baptized. (as stated in the text)
- There was, however, no evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit. (as stated in the text)

Maybe the seed and the sower helps? what you wrote ‘They had accepted the word of God
There was evidence that they had been water baptized.
There was, however, no evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit.’

The seed and the sower shows: Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and taketh (snatches) (steals) ( a thief) away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. —
In considering those in Samaria other religious men that don’t want them to receive and be saved could very well come to try to steal away the word planted in their hearts…lest they should believe and be saved. It’s a problem still today (Imo). Note though they had “received” but need the Holy Spirit of “I give My life, no man takes it from Me. I have the power to lay it down and take it up again.”

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. —they “hear” and “receive the word with Joy” but have no root…which believe for a season but (if need be) tried by fire that their praise and glory and joy might be found unto the paise of God through Christ …they go away(fall away). To me this also helps with Samaria having “heard” and received” but not having the Spirit which hopes all things, believes all things, bears all things, endures all things. Because they who do “hear” and do “receive” (the baptism of John?) only endure for a short time. Although having “received the word with joy” being baptized with water…what more do they need? A heart of stone removed and a new heart given of God which is able to “I have more to tell you but you can’t yet bear (endure it)” “however when the comforter comes He will tell you things and you’ll receive strength that your able to bear (endure)”


And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
-these also “received seed” but the word is choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life …reminds me of they have their excuses like those that said first let me go bury my father..or I have this to do first…when He said come follow Me. Although having seed sown …that seed is as a babe —they’re still (yet) carnal and have need of milk not ready for the meat. Paul spoke of not sinning against one who is weak by using and abusing his knowledge to choke this brother for then he (Paul) sinned against Christ “not bringing forth fruit unto perfect”. “So I have fed you with milk for you are not yet able to bear the meat”. See, we say it’s those who let the cares of this life choke the word out…but it could be those using their knowledge which isn’t of Christ but is worldly knowledge to “choke out ” an infant “a child” for whom Christ died to not bring forth fruit unto perfection. In so doing, you sin against Christ.


But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.(you’ll have need of patience)

Is there a difference in “having heard the word” and “received it with joy”
And “having heard the word” and “keep it”?
Is there a difference in “received it” and “keep it”?

Point is by the parable of the sower and the seed…the Samaritan could have heard and received but still needed to be strengthened by the receiving of the Holy Spirit(when the comforter comes) to endure and keep and not have what is given of God to be “stolen” nor “choked”

 

[David in NJ]

Maybe the seed and the sower helps? what you wrote ‘They had accepted the word of God
There was evidence that they had been water baptized.
There was, however, no evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit.’

The seed and the sower shows: Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and taketh (snatches) (steals) ( a thief) away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. —
In considering those in Samaria other religious men that don’t want them to receive and be saved could very well come to try to steal away the word planted in their hearts…lest they should believe and be saved. It’s a problem still today (Imo). Note though they had “received” but need the Holy Spirit of “I give My life, no man takes it from Me. I have the power to lay it down and take it up again.”

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. —they “hear” and “receive the word with Joy” but have no root…which believe for a season but (if need be) tried by fire that their praise and glory and joy might be found unto the paise of God through Christ …they go away(fall away). To me this also helps with Samaria having “heard” and received” but not having the Spirit which hopes all things, believes all things, bears all things, endures all things. Because they who do “hear” and do “receive” (the baptism of John?) only endure for a short time. Although having “received the word with joy” being baptized with water…what more do they need? A heart of stone removed and a new heart given of God which is able to “I have more to tell you but you can’t yet bear (endure it)” “however when the comforter comes He will tell you things and you’ll receive strength that your able to bear (endure)”


And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
-these also “received seed” but the word is choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life …reminds me of they have their excuses like those that said first let me go bury my father..or I have this to do first…when He said come follow Me. Although having seed sown …that seed is as a babe —they’re still (yet) carnal and have need of milk not ready for the meat. Paul spoke of not sinning against one who is weak by using and abusing his knowledge to choke this brother for then he (Paul) sinned against Christ “not bringing forth fruit unto perfect”. “So I have fed you with milk for you are not yet able to bear the meat”. See, we say it’s those who let the cares of this life choke the word out…but it could be those using their knowledge which isn’t of Christ but is worldly knowledge to “choke out ” an infant “a child” for whom Christ died to not bring forth fruit unto perfection. In so doing, you sin against Christ.


But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.(you’ll have need of patience)

Is there a difference in “having heard the word” and “received it with joy”
And “having heard the word” and “keep it”?
Is there a difference in “received it” and “keep it”?

Point is by the parable of the sower and the seed…the Samaritan could have heard and received but still needed to be strengthened by the receiving of the Holy Spirit(when the comforter comes) to endure and keep and not have what is given of God to be “stolen” nor “choked”

The evidence in scripture is that the 'word' was sown in their hearts and stayed there.

Acts ch19
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus.
And finding some disciples 2he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

3And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

4Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7Now the men were about twelve in all.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The evidence in scripture is that the 'word' was sown in their hearts and stayed there.

Acts ch19
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus.
And finding some disciples 2he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

3And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”

So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”

4Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. 7Now the men were about twelve in all.

I’m not disputing the Holy Spirit come upon them and stayed there.

I thought the question was if they had been baptized with the baptism of John unto repentance and received the word …then why had they not yet received the Holy Spirit. I didn’t think the question was did they receive the Holy Spirit …but thought the question was regarding the space between the baptism of John and their saying “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And then the Holy Spirit coming upon them. I didn’t think it was a question of if the Holy Spirit did come upon them but instead why had they not yet received the Holy Spirit by the baptism of John. So that the disciples had to ask “have you yet received the Holy Spirit?”
“We didn’t know we were suppose to having not heard of receiving the Holy Spirit”?

 

[David in NJ]

I’m not disputing the Holy Spirit come upon them and stayed there.

I thought the question was if they had been baptized with the baptism of John unto repentance and received the word …then why had they not yet received the Holy Spirit. I didn’t think the question was did they receive the Holy Spirit …but thought the question was regarding the space between the baptism of John and their saying “we have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And then the Holy Spirit coming upon them. I didn’t think it was a question of if the Holy Spirit did come upon them but instead why had they not yet received the Holy Spirit by the baptism of John. So that the disciples had to ask “have you yet received the Holy Spirit?”
“We didn’t know we were suppose to having not heard of receiving the Holy Spirit”?

They had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because this specific Promise was not given to John the Baptist to administer.

Acts ch1
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

 

[Lambano]

They didn't have the right formula. They were getting it all wrong, wrong, wrong! (Said in the voice of Dom DeLouise's Blazing Saddles character.)

 

[St. SteVen]

Maybe the seed and the sower helps?

I like @David in NJ response.

The evidence in scripture is that the 'word' was sown in their hearts and stayed there.

Yes, agree. This was not the issue.
But we need to get with the right chapter and country here.
Samaria, not Ephesus.

Acts 8:14-17 NIV
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

I thought the question was if they had been baptized with the baptism of John unto repentance and received the word

No, not the baptism of John. In Jesus' name. See scripture above.

They had not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because this specific Promise was not given to John the Baptist to administer.

See above. Thanks.

They didn't have the right formula. They were getting it all wrong, wrong, wrong! (Said in the voice of Dom DeLouise Blazing Saddles character.)

This is the interesting thing about this. The Holy Spirit doesn't want to be put in a box.
Like Jesus said in John chapter three, the HS is like the wind. (pneuma) As you know.

So, the formulas weren't working. Even Jesus' healing ministry was this way.
Look at the methods Jesus was directed to use when healing the blind.
Different every time. We need to be obedient to the leading if we want the results.
Even Jesus was subject to this. Saw what the Father was doing and aligned himself.

/

 

[David in NJ]

I like @David in NJ response.

Yes, agree. This was not the issue.
But we need to get with the right chapter and country here.
Samaria, not Ephesus.

Acts 8:14-17 NIV
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.


No, not the baptism of John. In Jesus' name. See scripture above.


See above. Thanks.


This is the interesting thing about this. The Holy Spirit doesn't want to be put in a box.
Like Jesus said in Jon chapter three, the HS is like the wind. (pneuma) As you know.

So, the formulas weren't working. Even Jesus' healing ministry was this way.
Look at the methods Jesus was directed to use when healing the blind.
Different every time. We need to be obedient to the leading if we want the results.
Even Jesus was subject to this. Saw what the Father was doing and aligned himself.

/

OK, thanks for the update of 'location'.

In the Samaria 'case' we see the LORD directing the Apostles to go there.

But why not just have the Holy Spirit fall upon them at the preaching of the Gospel???

Because God is a God of Order = Genesis = Gospel = Acts chapters 1 & 2 = and Forward to Revelation