What happened to Enoch? Would love some input on this.

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Again, what did Jesus promise the thief? Could he have been with Jesus in Paradise that day?
What does the Bible say? Jesus said that he would be in the heart of the earth just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish, for three days. Jonah was captive, held inside that fish, just as Jesus was captive inside his tomb for three days. He did not experience a resurrection until God raised him after that time. He did not go anywhere…..just as his friend Lazarus did not go anywhere when Jesus returned him to life. Lazarus was in his tomb for 4 days.

Add to that the fact that Jesus remained on earth for 40 days after his resurrection in spiritual form, (1 Pet 3:18) “appearing” to his disciples and others in physical form, as angels had done in times past, so the thief was NOT in paradise with Jesus that day at all.

Prove it. We know... or perhaps you don't believe in what it says in the Apostles Creed?

He descended into hell and the third day he arose again from the dead.

Just how do you know Jesus was not in Paradise that day and for 3 days? Can you prove biblically when he was buried in the tomb... the rock rolled away 3 days later... and the tomb was found empty.... where does it bible say he was for those 72 hours?

The comma belongs after the word “today” Because Jesus spoke of the coming resurrection, not the departing of the man’s spirit to join Jesus in paradise that day.

I agree with the placement of the comma and when Jesus said I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.... you have zero proof that Jesus was not with the thief at some time
during those 72 hours.

What Jesus promised the thief was a resurrection in paradise on earth when the kingdom rules redeemed mankind. Jesus promised to resurrect the righteous as well as the unrighteous at that time. (John 5:28-29)
This man was not a disciple, but a thief paying his debt under the law. He had a last minute change of heart and a wonderful promise from Jesus that his death would not be permanent.

Since the Bible does not teach that we have a soul, but that we are a soul whilst ever we breathe, death is the end of this life. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no conscious part of man that survives death….it was the devil who told the woman she “surely will not die” and he has been promoting that lie ever since.

Aunty Jane,

I'll have to adress your other points tomorrow or Tue as I simply have little time right now.

But one thing I have to ask you.

You say...Since the Bible does not teach that we have a soul, but that we are a soul whilst ever we breathe, death is the end of this life. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no conscious part of man that survives death….it was the devil who told the woman she “surely will not die” and he has been promoting that lie ever since.

Please explain then why the redundancy in this verse?

Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It might be wise to note that in vs 20 they are told... 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

As to what Eve was told... Do you for one minute think she knew at the time what death was or the spiritual connection to things? Maybe God explained the facts of life to Adam and maybe not... but I doubt Adam took time to explain them to Eve....

She ate the fruit and did not die.... physically.

Also... what does this verse mean?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Obviously something continues on when man dies.

Finally for tonight you say... You say...Since the Bible does not teach that we have a soul, but that we are a soul whilst ever we breathe, death is the end of this life. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Paul disagrees with you... right here he says you have a soul

1 Thessalonians 5:23​

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The following is making no mention at all to a soul or spirit.
BTW... Eccl 9 vs 5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

vs 10 ...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

 

[David in NJ]

Nope.

At least not generally so unless you are using Rev 20:4 with a preterist mindset.

What do you know about Sheol?

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Sheol​

I am not talking about when Paradise eventually moved to heaven.

Bible Indicates Paradise Was Once Part Of Hades

www.devotions.com

We are told in Ecclesiastes 12:7

NASB 1995
then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

So your body decays in the ground and your spirit has gone back to God. NO mention of Paradise.

But upper Sheol or Paradise where Jesus joined the thief from the cross and where Jesus went during his 3 days after crucifixion was a place where some part of man was.. waiting for ???? judgement.

Jesus' Descension To Sheol: What It Is And Isn't • Things Above Us

A Twitter-kerfuffle erupted this week when various news agencies reported Hollywood star Mel Gibson is working on a sequel to the wildly popular Passion of ...

thingsabove.us

The souls of the believing righteous were translated to the upper chamber of Sheol upon death, also known as “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22) or “Paradise” (Luke 23:43). When Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise,” He is, indeed, referring to the upper chamber of Sheol where they will meet together in death. Again, Jesus isn’t speaking in allegory here, because the literal sense makes most sense. There is simply no reason to take this passage to mean anything other than what it says. Jesus and the thief met together in a real place called “Paradise” on that same day.

But why, exactly, did Jesus descend to Sheol, or, as the Apostles’ Creed puts it rather unhelpfully, “Hell”?
Here are three reasons Jesus went down there:

1. HE PREACHED THE GOOD NEWS OF HIS RESURRECTION TO THE RIGHTEOUS SHEOL-DWELLERS.​

They needed sin’s expiation, and they finally got it; so Christ anounced the incredible news to them in the upper-chamber of Sheol.

2. CHRIST DELIVERED PRE-RESURRECTION BELIEVERS OUT OF HADES FOR GOOD.​

Remember that strange scene immediately after Jesus yielded up his spirit in Matthew 27? All those people who rose from graves and walked Jerusalem (though they would die again) were proof that times… they were a’ changing.

3. CHRIST OFFICIALLY DOOMED THE NOAH-ERA SINNERS.​

Now I could post much on Sheol and its purpose but space here will not permit. The article on Jesus' descension is well worth clicking to read.

SO... We have a body turning back to dust.

We have a spirit who already went back to God.

THAT LEAVES US WITH...

Having a soul that either was condemned already or going to Upper Sheol/Paradise
to await when Jesus released them

And it is my belief that after that then Paradise was moved to ..... dare I say this cause it seems appropriate... the suburbs of Heaven proper where we will wait until whatever happens happens.....

Jesus preached to the souls in Sheol - AND - HE also went and preached the Gospel to the Fallen Angels that are in chains in the deepest part of the earth.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Jesus preached to the souls in Sheol - AND - HE also went and preached the Gospel to the Fallen Angels that are in chains in the deepest part of the earth.

 

[Hillsage]

Both spirit and soul goes to heaven.

Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Below are excerpts from a study I read 15+? years ago. It was a good opinion....IMO.

Quote"“And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (Rev. 20:4).

After Satan has been bound in the bottomless pit, and the seal is set upon him, then the overcomers appear as “souls” who “live” and “reign” as kings and judges, but — they have been BEHEADED! They tell us that if you miss the “rapture” you can be saved, but you’re going to have to be beheaded. If missing the “rapture” means you must face beheading, and if being beheaded then uniquely qualifies you to sit on the throne and reign with Christ for a thousand years, then being so carnal that you miss the “rapture” actually ends up exalting you to a higher position in the kingdom of Christ than those spiritual saints who were translated! Not very sound reasoning IMO?

It is not losing your physical head that qualifies you to reign — if that were the case, most of the Lord’s people, including many of the Lord’s original apostles, don’t even stand a chance of sitting on the throne!

Those who reign in life with Christ are those who have been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, that is, so they can be witnesses of HIM; and those who have gotten the victory over the beast of the Adamic nature, and over his image— those imaginations and characteristics raised up in our lives which display the Adamic likeness — and over the carnal mark that that nature stamps upon our forehead (mind) and upon our hand (actions). Unfortunately, the Greek word rendered “beheaded” in the King James Bible is not fully understood. It appears nowhere else in the scriptures except here. But one fact stands out plainly: It cannot allude to only those who physically died as martyrs. This, too, is a symbol! " End Quote

 

[David in NJ]

Below are excerpts from a study I read 15+? years ago. It was a good opinion....IMO.

Quote"“And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (Rev. 20:4).

After Satan has been bound in the bottomless pit, and the seal is set upon him, then the overcomers appear as “souls” who “live” and “reign” as kings and judges, but — they have been BEHEADED! They tell us that if you miss the “rapture” you can be saved, but you’re going to have to be beheaded. If missing the “rapture” means you must face beheading, and if being beheaded then uniquely qualifies you to sit on the throne and reign with Christ for a thousand years, then being so carnal that you miss the “rapture” actually ends up exalting you to a higher position in the kingdom of Christ than those spiritual saints who were translated! Not very sound reasoning IMO?

It is not losing your physical head that qualifies you to reign — if that were the case, most of the Lord’s people, including many of the Lord’s original apostles, don’t even stand a chance of sitting on the throne!

Those who reign in life with Christ are those who have been beheaded for the witness of Jesus, that is, so they can be witnesses of HIM; and those who have gotten the victory over the beast of the Adamic nature, and over his image— those imaginations and characteristics raised up in our lives which display the Adamic likeness — and over the carnal mark that that nature stamps upon our forehead (mind) and upon our hand (actions). Unfortunately, the Greek word rendered “beheaded” in the King James Bible is not fully understood. It appears nowhere else in the scriptures except here. But one fact stands out plainly: It cannot allude to only those who physically died as martyrs. This, too, is a symbol! " End Quote

i liked your post = thank you

YES, Revelation has symbolism woven in it = However, not all is symbolic

Peace

 

[Aunty Jane]

Prove it. We know... or perhaps you don't believe in what it says in the Apostles Creed?

He descended into hell and the third day he arose again from the dead.

Find me the apostles creed in the Bible…..it came from the Catholic Church….not scripture.
it’s the Catholic version of where Jesus went when he died.…keeping in mind that belief in an immortal soul was adopted from false religious beliefs….it is not taught in scripture. No conscious part of man survives death.
psalm 115:17….
“The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.”

When it says that Jesus descended into “hell”….did Jesus believe that such a place existed?
Since ”sheol” and “hades” are both translated as “hell“ in many Bibles, what did Jesus’ Jewish audience understand this word to mean?

“Sheol” is translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”….so the Jews knew exactly what Sheol/hades meant….the place where all the dead are buried. Everyone goes to this “hell”….but not everyone goes to “Gehenna” (the other word translated as “hell”). They are not remotely the same.
Original language word studies reveal a lot when it comes to accurate translating.

Studying the Bible must include careful examination of original language words to see how accurate a translation is. Bias crept in long ago and has perpetuated lies that have been around for centuries.
We must identify them and throw them out as the garbage they are.

Just how do you know Jesus was not in Paradise that day and for 3 days? Can you prove biblically when he was buried in the tomb... the rock rolled away 3 days later... and the tomb was found empty.... where does it bible say he was for those 72 hours?

If Jesus said that he was going to be in the grave for three days and nights….should we believe him or an apostate religious system that would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them?

When Jonah was in the belly of the fish, did he float off somewhere else before the fish vomited him out onto a beach? Why would Jesus use that illustration if he intended it to convey something else. He was bound in death in his grave for the period he said he would be. (Matt 12:38-40)

I agree with the placement of the comma and when Jesus said I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.... you have zero proof that Jesus was not with the thief at some time
during those 72 hours.

He was dead in his grave for three days and nights…..so there was no part of the man Jesus alive during that period. Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, or a conscious spiritual entity that left the body at death. That notion came from false religious beliefs adopted later. It is found in all false worship because it did not originate with God. It is nothing more that a perpetuation of the devil’s first lie…..”you surely will not die”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But one thing I have to ask you.

You say...Since the Bible does not teach that we have a soul, but that we are a soul whilst ever we breathe, death is the end of this life. (Eccl 9:5, 10) There is no conscious part of man that survives death….it was the devil who told the woman she “surely will not die” and he has been promoting that lie ever since.

Please explain then why the redundancy in this verse?

Matthew 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The “hell“ in that verse is “Gehenna”, not “hades”. Man can destroy the body, but the soul (or the life of that person) is in the hands of God. He knows who is in “hades” (which is the grave we all go to) and “Gehenna” which is a death from which no return to life is possible.
Those in hades are released in the resurrection, (Rev 20:13-14) whereas in Gehenna”, God destroys that person completely, like they never existed. (Matt 10:28)
Note too that “death and hades” are then thrown into Gehenna (the lake of fire) to be destroyed, never to plague mankind again. (Rev 21:2-4

It might be wise to note that in vs 20 they are told... 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Not sure of the question here…..in verses 19-20 Jesus is assuring his disciples that when persecution comes, they will not have to worry about making a defense before their persecutors because God’s spirit would direct their words.

As to what Eve was told... Do you for one minute think she knew at the time what death was or the spiritual connection to things? Maybe God explained the facts of life to Adam and maybe not... but I doubt Adam took time to explain them to Eve....

Since she was the new one and inexperienced in many ways (the reason why the devil targeted her specifically) it was still obvious that she knew God’s command, so Adam had told her about the only thing in their environment that could cause death. She reiterated to the snake what Adam had told her about the TKGE so she knew what God had said. And since the animals that were around them (never designed by God to live forever since man alone was made in God’s image) they knew what death was because they had seen animals die in the natural cycle of life that God had given them.

If you think about it, the earthly creatures God made, had no concept of death, and no concept of past, present and future…..everything they did was programmed by instinct. They ate, drank and procreated without consciously planning to do any of it….driven by forces within, put there for their preservation. Humans are the only creatures (made in God’s image and likeness) who can contemplate their own death and consciously take the life of another……that carried responsibility because intelligent reasoning was involved. It is why God had laws……and there were two penalties for the loss of someone’s life…..there was murder and manslaughter….one was deliberate with malice and intent, whereas the other was accidental, but still incurred a penalty.

 

[Aunty Jane]

She ate the fruit and did not die.... physically.

Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (Quoting Psalm 90:4)

Look at all the genealogies of the pre-flood generations and see that not one of them lived to 1,000 years.
So they did die in the time that God allotted, gradually succumbing to old age, sickness and death.
Spiritually however they did die the moment they disobeyed their Creator, separated from him by their sin.

In Hebrew, the word “day” has several meanings just as it does in English. When we refer to “our grandfather’s day”, it’s not talking about a 24 hour period but a generational timeframe.

Also... what does this verse mean?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Obviously something continues on when man dies.

Again…the spirit is the breath of life, just as Adam was animated with the breath God gave him, so it will be at the resurrection. A new body will be created with all the memories and personality of the former person and the breath (spirit) that returned to God at their death is given back to them. It returned to God as a memory of that person, and God remember everything about them. He knows all of the stars by name. (Psalm 147:4)

Paul disagrees with you... right here he says you have a soul

1 Thessalonians 5:23​

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Context reveals that Paul is referring to a collective of Christ’s anointed ones…..he is not speaking about individuals. They make up the body of Christ, and the soul or life that they live as a body is reflected in their conduct, as is the spirit or zeal they have to accomplish the continuation of the work that their Master began, and instructed them to continue, with boldness.

The following is making no mention at all to a soul or spirit.
BTW... Eccl 9 vs 5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

vs 10 ...Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

Exactly….because the “soul” was asleep, and the animating “spirit” (breath of life) in Jewish understanding was now with God as the one in Sheol awaited a return to life in the promised resurrection. There is silence in the grave. The soul rests. As I mentioned before, “Sheol” in Hebrew is translated as “grave” in the Jewish Tanakh. It is not a place of conscious existence.

So who are the “spirits” who impersonate the dead like they did with King Saul in his desperate attempt to contact the dead prophet Samuel? Now devoid of God’s guiding spirit, Saul broke God’s law by finding the last spirit medium in the land. (He had been the one to rid the land of these agents of the devil.)

The living prophets would not speak to him so he attempted to contact “Samuel” through this woman who had a spirit of divination. (1 Samuel ch 28)
A spirit impersonated Samuel and told the King that he and his sons would die….and that came true, but it wasn’t from God or Samuel…..it came from spiritism, something God had forbidden to his people. (Deut 18:9-12)

The answers are all there in the scriptures….you just have to take scripture in its entirety (the big picture) and understand what the ancient Jews believed as opposed to what became first century apostate Judaism and see the sham that modern day Christendom has become from her own disgraceful past.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Find me the apostles creed in the Bible…..it came from the Catholic Church….not scripture.
it’s the Catholic version of where Jesus went when he died.…keeping in mind that belief in an immortal soul was adopted from false religious beliefs….it is not taught in scripture. No conscious part of man survives death.
psalm 115:17….
“The dead do not praise Jah;
Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.”

When it says that Jesus descended into “hell”….did Jesus believe that such a place existed?
Since ”sheol” and “hades” are both translated as “hell“ in many Bibles, what did Jesus’ Jewish audience understand this word to mean?

“Sheol” is translated in the Jewish Tanakh as “the grave”….so the Jews knew exactly what Sheol/hades meant….the place where all the dead are buried. Everyone goes to this “hell”….but not everyone goes to “Gehenna” (the other word translated as “hell”). They are not remotely the same.
Original language word studies reveal a lot when it comes to accurate translating.

Studying the Bible must include careful examination of original language words to see how accurate a translation is. Bias crept in long ago and has perpetuated lies that have been around for centuries.
We must identify them and throw them out as the garbage they are.

If Jesus said that he was going to be in the grave for three days and nights….should we believe him or an apostate religious system that would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit them?

When Jonah was in the belly of the fish, did he float off somewhere else before the fish vomited him out onto a beach? Why would Jesus use that illustration if he intended it to convey something else. He was bound in death in his grave for the period he said he would be. (Matt 12:38-40)

He was dead in his grave for three days and nights…..so there was no part of the man Jesus alive during that period. Jews had no belief in an immortal soul, or a conscious spiritual entity that left the body at death. That notion came from false religious beliefs adopted later. It is found in all false worship because it did not originate with God. It is nothing more that a perpetuation of the devil’s first lie…..”you surely will not die”.

There is so much wrong with what you wrote I will take time to make an historic correction to you an the Apostles Creed

The Apostles' Creed: Its History and Origins - Logos Bible Study Platform
​

It was officially recognized by Charlemagne throughout the Frankish Empire in the early ninth century,

"He was dead in his grave for three days and nights…..so there was no part of the man Jesus alive during that period.

You cannot prove that.

But it is obvious you dont know your bible or the one you read may have taken 1 Peter 2: 18-20 out

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

And for Pete's sake stop with the 3 days and 3 nights when I am certain you are among those who say Friday before Resurrection Sunday was crusifixion day. YOU can not get 72 hours from //Fri 3PM to around sunrise on Sunday

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (Quoting Psalm 90:4)

Look at all the genealogies of the pre-flood generations and see that not one of them lived to 1,000 years.
So they did die in the time that God allotted, gradually succumbing to old age, sickness and death.
Spiritually however they did die the moment they disobeyed their Creator, separated from him by their sin.

In Hebrew, the word “day” has several meanings just as it does in English. When we refer to “our grandfather’s day”, it’s not talking about a 24 hour period but a generational timeframe.

Again…the spirit is the breath of life, just as Adam was animated with the breath God gave him, so it will be at the resurrection. A new body will be created with all the memories and personality of the former person and the breath (spirit) that returned to God at their death is given back to them. It returned to God as a memory of that person, and God remember everything about them. He knows all of the stars by name. (Psalm 147:4)

Context reveals that Paul is referring to a collective of Christ’s anointed ones…..he is not speaking about individuals. They make up the body of Christ, and the soul or life that they live as a body is reflected in their conduct, as is the spirit or zeal they have to accomplish the continuation of the work that their Master began, and instructed them to continue, with boldness.

Exactly….because the “soul” was asleep, and the animating “spirit” (breath of life) in Jewish understanding was now with God as the one in Sheol awaited a return to life in the promised resurrection. There is silence in the grave. The soul rests. As I mentioned before, “Sheol” in Hebrew is translated as “grave” in the Jewish Tanakh. It is not a place of conscious existence.

So who are the “spirits” who impersonate the dead like they did with King Saul in his desperate attempt to contact the dead prophet Samuel? Now devoid of God’s guiding spirit, Saul broke God’s law by finding the last spirit medium in the land. (He had been the one to rid the land of these agents of the devil.)

The living prophets would not speak to him so he attempted to contact “Samuel” through this woman who had a spirit of divination. (1 Samuel ch 28)
A spirit impersonated Samuel and told the King that he and his sons would die….and that came true, but it wasn’t from God or Samuel…..it came from spiritism, something God had forbidden to his people. (Deut 18:9-12)

The answers are all there in the scriptures….you just have to take scripture in its entirety (the big picture) and understand what the ancient Jews believed as opposed to what became first century apostate Judaism and see the sham that modern day Christendom has become from her own disgraceful past.

Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (Quoting Psalm 90:4)

Didn't they? I would call separation from God a fate worse then death.

But Adam and Eve did die, though not immediately. The Hebrew phrase translated “in the day” in Gen 2:17 is sometimes used to mean “for certain” (note also Exodus 10:28, 1 Kings 2:37and 42). So, Adam and Eve “certainly” died; it’s just that their death took place much later (Gen 5:5). This view is also supported by Gen 3:22, in which God determines to bar man from the tree of life to prevent him from living forever. Adam and Eve lost eternal life, were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and eventually experienced physical death.

And if you do not subscribe to this idea then as I said about separation from God is certain.
The warning of Gen 2:17 certainly is that “death” refers to spiritual death. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they experienced a separation from God, a loss of relationship due to their sin. Their first actions after sinning were to cover themselves up and hide from God (Gen 3:7-8)). This alienation from the Source of Life , this spiritual death is surly a death wedo not want to experience.

The moment Adam and Eve sinned against God, their souls were separated from God, and their bodies began to die. Their spiritual deadness and susceptibility to physical death have been passed on to allof us.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is so much wrong with what you wrote I will take time to make an historic correction to you an the Apostles Creed

The Apostles' Creed: Its History and Origins - Logos Bible Study Platform​

It was officially recognized by Charlemagne throughout the Frankish Empire in the early ninth century,

Did you read the article you cited? It confirms what I said.
Jesus did not descend into “hell” but was dead and buried in a grave. He was there for three days and nights as he said he would be. They did not have to be three full days and nights as parts of them could be counted as a day in Jewish reckoning.

When Catholic theology entered into the picture, we see the Bible’s teachings give way to false religious ideas and traditions of men.….mimicking exactly what happened with the Jews. (Matt 15:7-9)

Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (Quoting Psalm 90:4)

Didn't they? I would call separation from God a fate worse then death.

What did they really know about “separation from God“ when they first sinned…..? All of a sudden bad thoughts came rushing in on them, causing them to cover their reproductive parts because of feeling shame at their nakedness.
And wthin one generation a murderer was produced…..it soon dawned on them what they had lost…not only for themselves but also their children.

But Adam and Eve did die, though not immediately. The Hebrew phrase translated “in the day” in Gen 2:17 is sometimes used to mean “for certain” (note also Exodus 10:28, 1 Kings 2:37and 42). So, Adam and Eve “certainly” died; it’s just that their death took place much later (Gen 5:5). This view is also supported by Gen 3:22, in which God determines to bar man from the tree of life to prevent him from living forever. Adam and Eve lost eternal life, were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and eventually experienced physical death.

Yes, I have no argument with that because that is what God told Adam….”on the day” that they ate the fruit, they began the physical descent into death…it was never stipulated what “day” physical death would occur…..for Adam, that was at the age of 930…..70 years short of a “day” in the view of the eternal God.

And if you do not subscribe to this idea then as I said about separation from God is certain.
The warning of Gen 2:17 certainly is that “death” refers to spiritual death. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they experienced a separation from God, a loss of relationship due to their sin. Their first actions after sinning were to cover themselves up and hide from God (Gen 3:7-8)). This alienation from the Source of Life , this spiritual death is surly a death wedo not want to experience.

The moment Adam and Eve sinned against God, their souls were separated from God, and their bodies began to die. Their spiritual deadness and susceptibility to physical death have been passed on to allof us.

When God told them that they would “surely die”, would they immediately think….”oh that means I only will die spiritually”…? The woman would have assumed that God meant she would die physically, because there is no mention of any other kind of death. The devil said that death wouldn’t happen…..was he talking about spiritual death or the physical kind?

We can imply all kinds of things but scripture must support scripture.….not assumptions forced into scripture.

But you are right….separation from God must have been an enormous wake up call when they were evicted from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground, with access to the only means to keep them alive now off limits.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Did you read the article you cited? It confirms what I said.
Jesus did not descend into “hell” but was dead and buried in a grave. He was there for three days and nights as he said he would be. They did not have to be three full days and nights as parts of them could be counted as a day in Jewish reckoning.

When Catholic theology entered into the picture, we see the Bible’s teachings give way to false religious ideas and traditions of men.….mimicking exactly what happened with the Jews. (Matt 15:7-9)

What did they really know about “separation from God“ when they first sinned…..? All of a sudden bad thoughts came rushing in on them, causing them to cover their reproductive parts because of feeling shame at their nakedness.
And wthin one generation a murderer was produced…..it soon dawned on them what they had lost…not only for themselves but also their children.

Yes, I have no argument with that because that is what God told Adam….”on the day” that they ate the fruit, they began the physical descent into death…it was never stipulated what “day” physical death would occur…..for Adam, that was at the age of 930…..70 years short of a “day” in the view of the eternal God.

When God told them that they would “surely die”, would they immediately think….”oh that means I only will die spiritually”…? The woman would have assumed that God meant she would die physically, because there is no mention of any other kind of death. The devil said that death wouldn’t happen…..was he talking about spiritual death or the physical kind?

We can imply all kinds of things but scripture must support scripture.….not assumptions forced into scripture.

But you are right….separation from God must have been an enormous wake up call when they were evicted from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground, with access to the only means to keep them alive now off limits.

Aunty Jane...

You know what?

You have single-handedly convinced me that 100% of the bible is wrong. (NOT)

You have single-handedly convinced me that you do not understand all that you read.

You have single-handedly convinced me that NOTHING any "MAN" ever said was right... only women like yourself. (NOT)

You have single-handedly convinced me of that latter because only a "man" could screw up a meaning... most likely why they blocked the Gospel of Mary from inclusion... and women from speaking in the temples and early churches. (NOT)

You have single handedly convinced me that since only women know anything.... this also includes Ellen White's beliefs and teachings must be considered. (NOT)

You single handedly convinced me that is be best if I put you on ignore.

Have a great rest of your life.

You dont have to put me on report.... I am reporting myself for all to see

 

[David in NJ]

Did you read the article you cited? It confirms what I said.
Jesus did not descend into “hell” but was dead and buried in a grave. He was there for three days and nights as he said he would be. They did not have to be three full days and nights as parts of them could be counted as a day in Jewish reckoning.

When Catholic theology entered into the picture, we see the Bible’s teachings give way to false religious ideas and traditions of men.….mimicking exactly what happened with the Jews. (Matt 15:7-9)

What did they really know about “separation from God“ when they first sinned…..? All of a sudden bad thoughts came rushing in on them, causing them to cover their reproductive parts because of feeling shame at their nakedness.
And wthin one generation a murderer was produced…..it soon dawned on them what they had lost…not only for themselves but also their children.

Yes, I have no argument with that because that is what God told Adam….”on the day” that they ate the fruit, they began the physical descent into death…it was never stipulated what “day” physical death would occur…..for Adam, that was at the age of 930…..70 years short of a “day” in the view of the eternal God.

When God told them that they would “surely die”, would they immediately think….”oh that means I only will die spiritually”…? The woman would have assumed that God meant she would die physically, because there is no mention of any other kind of death. The devil said that death wouldn’t happen…..was he talking about spiritual death or the physical kind?

We can imply all kinds of things but scripture must support scripture.….not assumptions forced into scripture.

But you are right….separation from God must have been an enormous wake up call when they were evicted from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground, with access to the only means to keep them alive now off limits.

Only JESUS body was in the grave.

Remember what HE said on the cross when HE died = "FATHER, into your hands I commit my Spirit."

 

[Hillsage]

Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” (Quoting Psalm 90:4)

Didn't they? I would call separation from God a fate worse then death.

But Adam and Eve did die, though not immediately. The Hebrew phrase translated “in the day” in Gen 2:17 is sometimes used to mean “for certain” (note also Exodus 10:28, 1 Kings 2:37and 42). So, Adam and Eve “certainly” died; it’s just that their death took place much later (Gen 5:5). This view is also supported by Gen 3:22, in which God determines to bar man from the tree of life to prevent him from living forever. Adam and Eve lost eternal life, were expelled from the Garden of Eden, and eventually experienced physical death.

And if you do not subscribe to this idea then as I said about separation from God is certain.
The warning of Gen 2:17 certainly is that “death” refers to spiritual death. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they experienced a separation from God, a loss of relationship due to their sin. Their first actions after sinning were to cover themselves up and hide from God (Gen 3:7-8)). This alienation from the Source of Life , this spiritual death is surly a death wedo not want to experience.

The moment Adam and Eve sinned against God, their souls were separated from God, and their bodies began to die. Their spiritual deadness and susceptibility to physical death have been passed on to allof us.

I would like to pose another thought for you to consider with your take of "a day is like a thousand years", which is my present understanding also. In reading Genesis 2 one day I felt a quickening when I read the following verse;

GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in THE DAY/yowm that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

The word for "day" in that verse is singular, but the heavens were created on day two vs 8, and the earth appeared on day 3 vs 13;

The definition of that word "day" has been translated into 35 different English words in the KJV....6 times as AGE

3117 yowm: a day (as the warm hours), whether lit. (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]

And the associated term I believe is revealed in verse 5

GEN 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,

So the day was not a 24 hour day it was the day before the rain/flood.....also called by us as the ANTEDELUVIAN AGE.

Anyway that's my thoughts on this, but have never heard anyone else teach it. So, you thoughts?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I would like to pose another thought for you to consider with your take of "a day is like a thousand years", which is my present understanding also. In reading Genesis 2 one day I felt a quickening when I read the following verse;

GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in THE DAY/yowm that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

The word for "day" in that verse is singular, but the heavens were created on day two vs 8, and the earth appeared on day 3 vs 13;

The definition of that word "day" has been translated into 35 different English words in the KJV....6 times as AGE

3117 yowm: a day (as the warm hours), whether lit. (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adv.]

And the associated term I believe is revealed in verse 5

GEN 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,

So the day was not a 24 hour day it was the day before the rain/flood.....also called by us as the ANTEDELUVIAN AGE.

Anyway that's my thoughts on this, but have never heard anyone else teach it. So, you thoughts?

I agree with you. Have debated similar for years.

Just a side note... the quote of mine in your reply above..
Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.”

That was me just quoting the person I was debating at the time.

 

[bluedragon]

Even the Holy Bible tells us in Genesis 5:24 NASB95

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.


NOW. Can the bible lie? I submit it is possible based on who is writing what they perceive to be the truth, but again NO. As we have been told by "the experts" that the bible is the "inerrant inspired Word from God."

We have also been told that no one has gone to be with or see the father because the time for that will be after Jesus' 2nd coming. (Please... Preterists... let this one rest.)

So the question is... When God took Enoch, to where did he take him?

Upper Sheol , often referred to as paradise?

Some have said... Paradise is pictured as being in the heavens, not underground.... but is that so?

What is Sheol and Where is it? Bible Meaning and Definition

The Bible says Sheol is the grave or place of the dead. But who goes there and what is it like? Read Bible meaning and descriptions.

www.biblestudytools.com

But Bakers definition and explanation seems incomplete ....

Jesus' Descension To Sheol: What It Is And Isn't • Things Above Us

A Twitter-kerfuffle erupted this week when various news agencies reported Hollywood star Mel Gibson is working on a sequel to the wildly popular Passion of ...

thingsabove.us

Wiki tells us...



So, if one were to assume that God took Enoch... to where did He take him?

To a different location to live out his life under another name?

Or to Upper Sheol awaiting his eventual heavenly entrance?

I cannot believe that He took him to heaven simply because John 3:13 tells us “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. And Jesus has not been born when Enoch vanished.

Opinions?

Sheol is empty .......closed for business.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree with you. Have debated similar for years.

Just a side note... the quote of mine in your reply above..
Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.”

That was me just quoting the person I was debating at the time.

Well they did die that very same day - AND - the very moment they ate the forbidden fruit.

Spiritual death came first.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane...

You know what?

You have single-handedly convinced me that 100% of the bible is wrong. (NOT)

The Bible is never wrong…what is wrong is interpretation. The truth hides in plain sight sometimes, whereas misinterpretation muddies the waters….confusion reigns.

You have single-handedly convinced me that you do not understand all that you read.

I have studied the Bible carefully for over 50 years……I have put a lot of effort into “understanding” what I read as it correlates to the Bible’s overarching theme…..the coming of God’s Kingdom. So far, I haven’t had anyone tell me exactly what God’s Kingdom is, according to Christendom’s teachings.

You have single-handedly convinced me that NOTHING any "MAN" ever said was right... only women like yourself. (NOT)

LOL…we play the gender card now do we? None of what I write are my own ideas….and what does my gender have to do with anything? I would not have taken you for a misogynist.

You have single-handedly convinced me of that latter because only a "man" could screw up a meaning... most likely why they blocked the Gospel of Mary from inclusion... and women from speaking in the temples and early churches. (NOT)

Many of the disciples of Jesus who were close to him, were women……they knew their place in God’s arrangement.…Christian women do not compete with their men. Each have their role to play…in the family and in the congregation.

You have single handedly convinced me that since only women know anything.... this also includes Ellen White's beliefs and teachings must be considered. (NOT)

I have no interest in Ellen White since I am not a SDA. Your ignorance is showing.

You single handedly convinced me that is be best if I put you on ignore.

Your choice entirely. Duly noted.

You dont have to put me on report.... I am reporting myself for all to see

Just for the record……it isn’t my job to “convince” anyone of anything…..the ‘planting and watering’ are all I am instructed to do as a disciple of Christ…but they are just the beginning….it is God who makes the seed of truth grow……or not (1 Cor 3:6)….so no amount of watering will accomplish anything if the seed falls in any of the places mentioned in Jesus’ illustration. (Matt 13:3-8; 18-23)

That old saying is true…..”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

Ignoring the truth and protesting that it cannot be the truth, because it isn’t what you want to believe, doesn’t make it a lie. We are in exactly the same position as the first century Jews, with the majority accepting what a corrupt religious system had promoted for centuries…..they executed their own Messiah, so sure that what the Pharisees taught them was true, they even cursed themselves with his blood. (Matt 27:25)

History is repeating because human nature stays the same…the devil knows it and counts on it.

If what we accept as truth was a lie in the first place, then who was our teacher? The author of Christendom is not God, nor did Jesus ever teach what Christendom promotes as truth. How can the true God be found in that divided excuse for “Christianity”? (Matt 7:21-23) God’s spirit unites his people…it does not divide them….humans do that. (1 Cor 1:10)

We are at this moment proving to God whether we are “wheat“ or “weeds”…..“sheep” or “goats”…..he knows the difference, even when we do not. We will all find out soon enough.

 

[Hillsage]

I agree with you. Have debated similar for years.

Just a side note... the quote of mine in your reply above..
Since God told the humans that they ‘would die in the day they ate of that fruit’, why then did they not die within 24 hours? That was not the “day” that God referred to.
2 Peter 3:8…
“However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.”

That was me just quoting the person I was debating at the time.

I saw your debate. I've had the same debate (in agreement with you) on another thread with the same person and others. That's why I didn't even bring the "day you eat you die" up in my post. We'll have other things to disagree with I'm sure....just like a thousand denominations who all they they are right. NOT!

On the other thread, I did deal with; I don't believe the Adam's family died spiritually, and also, God separated His presence from us. Cain was still in His presence and Cain never was in Eden.

GEN 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Getting kicked out of Eden kept them from accessing the tree of life and therefore immortality became mortality. My present opinion anyway.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Only JESUS body was in the grave.

Remember what HE said on the cross when HE died = "FATHER, into your hands I commit my Spirit."

Where does it say that only Jesus’ body was in the tomb? He said that ‘the son of man would be in the heart of the earth for three days and nights just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and nights’….so what part of Jonah was not in the fish? …..it was not just Jesus’ body in the tomb….it was all of Jesus. He had sacrificed his 100% mortal human life for mankind and relied on his Father to restore his life, as he promised. (Acts 2:31-32)

The “spirit“ that returned to God was his ability to live again by means of the resurrection…..this Jewish belief was replaced by the false teachings of an immortal soul…something NOT taught in their scripture.
.…that idea infiltrated Jewish thinking later from Greek influence….and also into apostate Christianity…..this belief in ‘immediate life after death’ is found in all false worship, but it is not taught in the Bible at all. Resurrection is a return to life, not a continuation of it.

Jesus was resurrected in a spirit body so as to return to his Father in heaven after he had remained for 40 days to strengthen his disciples for the rough road ahead of them. (Acts 1:3) Jesus did not stay with his apostles after his resurrection, (as he had for the previous three and a half years) but only “appeared“ to them and others so that they knew he had been resurrected.

Immortality of the soul is not and never was a Bible teaching. Immortality was in fact given only to a chosen few.
Most people have no idea that “immortality” and “everlasting life” are two entirely different things.