Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life

[GracePeace]

Be specific to show me where my reading is inaccurate. I implore you to. Show me the wording I'm getting wrong. I'm fully prepared to dive deep.

Much love!

I've already showed you that your conclusion (not necessarily the assessment of the individual words) is inaccurate because it fails to take into account many other truths--eg, some do not abide, and God forgets righteousness of people who fall away.

 

[GracePeace]

Debunked? Are we adversaries? Which verses have I posted that don't say what I've claimed they say?

Much love!

I've already explained my point of view ad nauseam--I have no issue with the wording, which I appreciate you taking your time to break down, and which basically just reaffirms what I already know the passage says, BUT I disagree with your overall takeaway which must take into account the overall teaching of Scripture.

 

[GracePeace]

Debunked? Are we adversaries? Which verses have I posted that don't say what I've claimed they say?

Much love!

I'm not denying the practical value of your way of seeing things. I know you and others like you know God--though there are varying levels of maturity among you, and some of you are deadly hateful toward me--but I can't deny what I read just for practicality. If that were the case, I'd just join the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you're saying that you remain in the Kingdom of Christ if you leave of your own accord?

Why would I leave? why would I stop trusting Jesus to save me from my sin?

I was a prodigal son for 5 years. But I never stopped trusting in Christ for my sin, or unrepenting that I was a sinner and lost apart from the cross.

And I was chastened for it.. And I can attest that when the Holy Spirit spanks you it is not fun.. And when at the right time, he called. I heard his voice and I returned..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He wasn't insulting you - merely responding to your (very rude, abrupt and arrogant) tone.

@Eternally Grateful You've made it obvious that you believe you may hurl insults but everyone must be gentle and kind with their words with you.

Lol

He was not insulting me by saying I only had part of the truth. And I did nto listen to the whole bible and everything else he said.

Are you a liberal? Because you seem to have 2 standards..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have to list the post numbers though. Because I never saw him doing that to you, but I did see you doing that all the time. Like, a lot of the time, like when you keep hurling false accusations or twisting what someone is saying or implying they say something they did not.

You've done all of that in this thread, aside from hurling insults.

It's not the fruit of the Spirit. We - you and I and anyone else - provide zero evidence that we have been saved let alone abiding in the Vine when we do that.

Lets see

I have been falsly accused by you of believing things I do not believe

I have been falsly accused by you as having said I have falsly accused you (when I have not)

He goes and goes and goes. Then starts using strawman attacks.. and that is perfectly fine with you

I just love having these discussions. Because the truth just keeps exposing itself

 

[GracePeace]

Lol

He was not insulting me by saying I only had part of the truth. And I did nto listen to the whole bible and everything else he said.

Are you a liberal? Because you seem to have 2 standards..

I was actually trying to be careful NOT to offend you--it's your massive ego that is offended at anyone who doesn't worship you/agree with every word you say.

 

[marks]

No, rather, it is yourself who denies the saying that some do not abide (1 Jn 2:28)

1 John 2:24-29 KJV
24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

You've assigned the meaning "lose your eternal life" to "be ashamed before Him at His coming", this is correct?

My first question would be to why make that substitution, and why not understand that the redeemed maybe be ashamed when He comes, while still being among the redeemed? Isn't that after all how this reads? It doesn't say, abide in Him, that we he shall appear, we will appear with Him. That we may have confidence that we will have eternal life when He comes.

Here in this same chapter John wrote,

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

He's telling us that those who leave were never really "in". "If they had been of us, they would have continued . . ." John is not contradicting himself just minutes later. And in a few more moments he wrote that we are now the children of God, and we don't know what we will be, but we KNOW that when we see Him we will be like Him.

because they don't keep God's commands (1 Jn 3:23,24)

1 John 3:18-24 KJV
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19) And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Where is the part about ceasing to keep His commandments and losing eternal life?

Here's a question for you . . . what does it mean here:

20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

because they're led away by idols (1 Jn 5:21).

1 John 5:19-21 KJV
19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Keep yourself from Idols, the admonition John gives to close his letter. Where is the part here about losing eternal life? And in particular in relation to the other things he wrote that show it's not going to happen? Losing eternal life, that is.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

It's the fruit of the Spirit. Not the fruit of the works of men. You get it displayed in you by abiding in the Vine, who is Jesus.

For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth, proving what is acceptable to the Lord.

If anyone does not abide in the Vine he is cast out as a branch and dies and is withered, worthy only to be burned.

I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered. And they gather and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. -- John 15:5-6

Now, do you want to tell me again this is about salvation and not about producing fruit???

 

[marks]

I'm not denying the practical value of your way of seeing things. I know you and others like you know God--though there are varying levels of maturity among you, and some of you are deadly hateful toward me--but I can't deny what I read just for practicality. If that were the case, I'd just join the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church.

I'm still asking where in particular do you see that I'm misrepresenting what a passage says. I think that's where the real answers are found.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

. . . looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith,

At what point is a person judged to be dead on the Vine?

At what point is a person who was made alive “born again” By God made up alive by God?? Amen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rather,

1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The saying here is that the power of God keeps us, using faith as the means.

"kept" here is a Perfect tense verb, meaning it's an action that is completed with enduring result. It's done, and remains done. It's in the Passive Voice, which means it's being done to the one who is being kept. I receive His "keeping" of me. If I were "keeping myself", say, by, for instance, fulfilling a requirement to continue to believe, then it would be written in the Active Voice, which means I'm doing the action.

A parallel passage is here,

Ephesians 4:30 KJV
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Here, "Ye are sealed" is Passive Voice, done to us. The Holy Spirit is our seal of being owned by God, His property, and we are under His seal "unto the day of redemption". Can you extricate yourself from God's ownership of you? Are you able to do that? Because He's said it's not going to happen. That if you're raised with Him now, you will appear with Him then. That His seal of ownership has an intent, that I be locked up under His seal until that day.

Much love!

Amen

its all of God. Not of us.


We are kept by him..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A calvinist like me? If all calvinists were like me, there wouldn't be calvinism.

Much love!

Amen

it always comes down to this. “if you believe in eternal security. Then your deemed a calvinist..

no discussion can be had then, You have already made up your mind what I believe, whether it is true or not.. “

 

[marks]

Same here. I see your reading as having substantial practical value but as being inaccurate.

I want to say . . . I feel like reaching an impasse in a discussion is a "win". It means we've been able to follow each other's reasoning down to the core, and can understand more fully how each of us have reached our conclusions. I feel like so many potentially good discussions get derailed!

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

1 John 2:24-29 KJV
24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29) If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

You've assigned the meaning "lose your eternal life" to "be ashamed before Him at His coming", this is correct?

My first question would be to why make that substitution, and why not understand that the redeemed maybe be ashamed when He comes, while still being among the redeemed? Isn't that after all how this reads? It doesn't say, abide in Him, that we he shall appear, we will appear with Him. That we may have confidence that we will have eternal life when He comes.

Easy. Again : The eternal life/Spirit is only located in the Son (1 Jn 5:11), and the branch that doesn't abide doesn't receive the substance in the Vine, and can't bear fruit, so it is thrown in the fire (Jn 15).
Shame characterizes the damned (Dn 12:2)--and 1 Jn 2:28 says "draw back in shame", which echoes Heb 10 "My righteous one will live by faith, but if My righteous one draws back... unto destruction".

Here in this same chapter John wrote,

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

He's telling us that those who leave were never really "in". "If they had been of us, they would have continued . . ." John is not contradicting himself just minutes later.

Yes, "they were never of us" because their righteousness is forgotten.

And in a few more moments he wrote that we are now the children of God, and we don't know what we will be, but we KNOW that when we see Him we will be like Him.


1 John 3:18-24 KJV
18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19) And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24) And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Where is the part about ceasing to keep His commandments and losing eternal life?

Abiding in Him, where the life is, and receiving the Spirit, depends on keeping the twofold law of faith (vv23, 24).

Here's a question for you . . . what does it mean here:

20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

1 John 5:19-21 KJV
19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Keep yourself from Idols, the admonition John gives to close his letter. Where is the part here about losing eternal life? And in particular in relation to the other things he wrote that show it's not going to happen? Losing eternal life, that is.

Much love!

Much love!

Ezekiel shows that bexause people follow idols, they break God's commands--breaking God's command is how to make sure you're NOT abiding, and therefore not receiving the Spirit (1 Jn 2:23, 24), and you eventually get tossed in the fire.

Granted, "idolatry" isn't always what we assume it is--eg, because one command is "believe in the Name of God's Son", when the Galatians believed the false Gospel, that was "idolatry", because "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls" (Gal 5:8), so it was a "doctrine of demons" (1 Ti 4:1) (and demons correspond with walking after the flesh, loving pleasure rather than God--certainly, the false Gospel appealed to their pride), and "the idols the nations worship are demons". By this "idolatry" (1 Jn 5:21), they were "deserting Him Who calls you", and "severed from Christ"--they were not abiding (1 Jn 2:28).

 

[GracePeace]

I'm still asking where in particular do you see that I'm misrepresenting what a passage says. I think that's where the real answers are found.

Much love!

I never said you misrepresented the individual words in your selected passages--I said your takeaway, your conclusion, is what I disagree with, and I have explained why.

 

[GracePeace]

I want to say . . . I feel like reaching an impasse in a discussion is a "win". It means we've been able to follow each other's reasoning down to the core, and can understand more fully how each of us have reached our conclusions. I feel like so many potentially good discussions get derailed!

Much love!

I prefer it to be that way--you've heard all my point, I've heard all your point, we've hashed it out, and the readers are exposed to the arguments, and can decide for themselves.

All the rest is a waste of time and effort.

 

[Ritajanice]

It doesn't have to be the exact same words as long as it is accurately conveying the right idea. But it happens in this case, scripture does mention supply of the Spirit in those exact words:

Phl 1:18-20

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom of Heaven, a Born Again has been birthed in the Spirit, therefore permanent, we aren’t supplied..,the Baptism in the Spirit is a one off....we have been Born of God?..

And your scripture, means what exactly to you?

Maybe you can also explain what it means to be birthed in the Spirit?..thanks.

 

[marks]

Yes, "they were never of us" because their righteousness is forgotten

Just touching on this one thought here, no need to go through the rest. "They were never of us" because they were never of us. Your statement simply again negates the plain saying of the text. How many times can you do this without realizing it's not right?

I appreciate your kindness and discussion, and I don't know what else to tell you that won't just be more like the rest, so I'm thinking it's best to leave this here.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

I'm still asking where in particular do you see that I'm misrepresenting what a passage says. I think that's where the real answers are found.

Much love!

I appreciate how you break the words down. I don't get any new information out of it, but at least it shows you care about the text, and the readers can know for certain what the passage states. I consider that the sort of "kindness" God wants.

The text says what it says--and many times you have shown that it says what it says--I just disagree with your conclusions.