How Evil Are Humans?

[Gabriel _Arch]

It was God's Spirit no doubt who gave them inspiration but it was their words ....filtered through their cultural understanding.

That would I think then implicate the whole of the Bible.

 

[quietthinker]

That would I think then implicate the whole of the Bible.

Yes, it does.
When inspired preachers preach today, they present how they understand. We all understand through our cultural perspective. If I was born in China or Africa I would have a different cultural perspective and understanding than those born in America......this holds true for the Prophets of scripture as well.

Understanding people's cultural perspective helps in decoding their words, their assumptions and their practices. We are called to be switched on regarding this. We are called to see and understand as God does.....and Jesus is the clearest window.

 

[Jack]

Yes, it does.
When inspired preachers preach today, they present how they understand. We all understand through our cultural perspective. If I was born in China or Africa I would have a different cultural perspective and understanding than those born in America......this holds true for the Prophets of scripture as well.

Understanding people's cultural perspective helps in decoding their words, their assumptions and their practices. We are called to be switched on regarding this. We are called to see and understand as God does.....and Jesus is the clearest window.

You have been quoted perfectly clear Scripture and you have rejected it. Do you think God will reject you for rejecting Him?

 

[quietthinker]

You have been quoted perfectly clear Scripture and you have rejected it. Do you think God will reject you for rejecting Him?

Your understanding Jack is limited/ restricted by your bias. This bias and active refusal to see opens the door for you to take scripture out of context. It has you jumping around the scripture to anything that supports your bias and ignoring anything that doesn't......hardly an intelligently informed position.

 

[Jack]

Your understanding Jack is limited/ restricted by your bias.

I understand you reject the Christian Bible.

This bias and active refusal to see opens the door for you to take scripture out of context. It has you jumping around the scripture to anything that supports your bias and ignoring anything that doesn't......hardly an intelligently informed position.

I don't think you're gonna like Jesus, God of the Bible on Judgment Day. What is your religion?

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Yes, it does.
When inspired preachers preach today, they present how they understand. We all understand through our cultural perspective. If I was born in China or Africa I would have a different cultural perspective and understanding than those born in America......this holds true for the Prophets of scripture as well.

Understanding people's cultural perspective helps in decoding their words, their assumptions and their practices. We are called to be switched on regarding this. We are called to see and understand as God does.....and Jesus is the clearest window.

I wouldn't pretend to know every verse in the Bible. However,there is one part that is a bit concerning.

God consigned,trapped,placed,imprisoned, everyone into disobedience,sin,so that he could show mercy.

A bit like picturing someone locking a group of people onto a cell. While mercy then is in sustaining their lives within that confine.

Or would true mercy arrive in not consigning everyone to sin, damnation, in the first place?

Everything God does is due to God's zeal for his own glory.

 

[quietthinker]

I wouldn't pretend to know every verse in the Bible. However,there is one part that is a bit concerning.

God consigned,trapped,placed,imprisoned, everyone into disobedience,sin,so that he could show mercy.

A bit like picturing someone locking a group of people onto a cell. While mercy then is in sustaining their lives within that confine.

Or would true mercy arrive in not consigning everyone to sin, damnation, in the first place?

Everything God does is due to God's zeal for his own glory.

How we read it determines how we see it.
I see it like this: In Adam (according to Paul in Romans 5) all are lost. One could say, and it was said this way; 'God consigned everyone to disobedience' but in fact it was Adam who did....yet the Hebrew way of expressing it is that God did, because ultimately they saw God as responsible for everything.....however, the context tells us it was Adam (Romans 5:12-14) Paul then continues his thesis and tells us that 'in Jesus' all have been redeemed. He repeats himself several times between Vs 6-21 just to make the point. This is the context of his messages in all his letters.

If we understand his utterances outside of this context we end up with the arguments so common in Christian circles with no resolve.

God knows we were born on this planet and it's disadvantages (in Adam) yet he does not hold it against us. Instead he has implemented a solution wilder than anyone can imagine (in Christ) and has committed to us the message of reconciliation......now, that is reconciliation of Man with God...not God with Man.....because God was never mad with us.
Our disfunction through Adam made us mad with God (unjustifiably) God in his unspeakable kindness did what he did by showing us his heart (Jesus)

 

[face2face]

How we read it determines how we see it.
I see it like this: In Adam (according to Paul in Romans 5) all are lost. One could say, and it was said this way; 'God consigned everyone to disobedience' but in fact it was Adam who did....yet the Hebrew way of expressing it is that God did, because ultimately they saw God as responsible for everything.....however, the context tells us it was Adam (Romans 5:12-14) Paul then continues his thesis and tells us that 'in Jesus' all have been redeemed. He repeats himself several times between Vs 6-21 just to make the point. This is the context of his messages in all his letters.

If we understand his utterances outside of this context we end up with the arguments so common in Christian circles with no resolve.

God knows we were born on this planet and it's disadvantages (in Adam) yet he does not hold it against us. Instead he has implemented a solution wilder than anyone can imagine (in Christ) and has committed to us the message of reconciliation......now, that is reconciliation of Man with God...not God with Man.....because God was never mad with us.
Our disfunction through Adam made us mad with God (unjustifiably) God in his unspeakable kindness did what he did by showing us his heart (Jesus)

The is a high degree of ignorance in this reply quiet and we have gone over this many times, but you force salvation on this who cannot be saved.

Paul provided clear guidance on this in Galatians 5

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

First issue you have here is showing how the Judaizer lost his salvation and you are able to accept this?!
The next is the idea that many who hold an alternative gospel to the one taught by Paul "Christ will be of no value to you at all"

Paul teaches you it’s possible for a believer to be “severed” from the Law and to this all Christians shout, "amen", however when you say they can be severed from Christ they rise up and yell abuse from their rooftops.
Why so?

firstly, because they hold a false gospel message and secondly, they do not want to accept their salvation can be lost because while their behaviour might be correct; their doctrine is false. That is what Paul spends chapters 1-4 on doctrine only to spend chapters 5-6 on behaviour.

Your approach is to say "Paul, you wasted your time writing the epistle to begin with...all in Adam sin and die and all people are saved"

Galatians 5:4 - look up the word "severed" or "cut off" and compare it to Romans 7!

Try praying first!

F2F

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

How we read it determines how we see it.
I see it like this: In Adam (according to Paul in Romans 5) all are lost. One could say, and it was said this way; 'God consigned everyone to disobedience' but in fact it was Adam who did....yet the Hebrew way of expressing it is that God did, because ultimately they saw God as responsible for everything.....however, the context tells us it was Adam (Romans 5:12-14) Paul then continues his thesis and tells us that 'in Jesus' all have been redeemed. He repeats himself several times between Vs 6-21 just to make the point. This is the context of his messages in all his letters.

If we understand his utterances outside of this context we end up with the arguments so common in Christian circles with no resolve.

God knows we were born on this planet and it's disadvantages (in Adam) yet he does not hold it against us. Instead he has implemented a solution wilder than anyone can imagine (in Christ) and has committed to us the message of reconciliation......now, that is reconciliation of Man with God...not God with Man.....because God was never mad with us.
Our disfunction through Adam made us mad with God (unjustifiably) God in his unspeakable kindness did what he did by showing us his heart (Jesus)

I think that's a fair report.

What I think we may be missing in God's responsibility is , were it not for his law and subsequent punishment decree after Adam sinned, sin that pre-existed this creation could never have entered the world of God.

 

[Taken]

That's one way to look at it.

We are also so valuable that He paid the highest ransom possible to set us free. What a Father!

I would suppose many people place a high value on “their” inheritance.

A man who is Sanctified is God’s inheritance.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I think that's a fair report.

What I think we may be missing in God's responsibility is , were it not for his law and subsequent punishment decree after Adam sinned, sin that pre-existed this creation could never have entered the world of God.

Laws are for … the lawless.
Purpose of laws, (rules as commonly called when we have and raise children), is to teach behaviors have “consequences”.

The “teacher”…. God, parent, babysitter, etc.
Decides, teaches what is acceptable, not acceptable…
Thus the consequences…reward or punishment.

Early man, seems like what was A lot of laws… 600 + I think.


Today…Land of the Free Federal Government has 50+ VOLUMES of Statues (written Laws) and 10’s of thousands of pages of Regulations. (All supposedly under the limiting umbrella of a single document call the US Constitution, BTW, averaging 600 new laws per year!) that such document can be hand written on 9 pieces of notebook paper. Sweet Land of Liberty sounds nice in the lyrics of a song…eh?
America’s and her people’s inheritance …
Oppression and Debt, while singing Freedom.

? Hummm

True Liberty only exists IN Christ.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Laws are for … the lawless.
Purpose of laws, (rules as commonly called when we have and raise children), is to teach behaviors have “consequences”.

The “teacher”…. God, parent, babysitter, etc.
Decides, teaches what is acceptable, not acceptable…
Thus the consequences…reward or punishment.

Early man, seems like what was A lot of laws… 600 + I think.


Today…Land of the Free Federal Government has 50+ VOLUMES of Statues (written Laws) and 10’s of thousands of pages of Regulations. (All supposedly under the limiting umbrella of a single document call the US Constitution, BTW, averaging 600 new laws per year!) that such document can be hand written on 9 pieces of notebook paper. Sweet Land of Liberty sounds nice in the lyrics of a song…eh?
America’s and her people’s inheritance …
Oppression and Debt, while singing Freedom.

? Hummm

That is post Eden.

Those in Eden were innocents.

 

[quietthinker]

The is a high degree of ignorance in this reply quiet and we have gone over this many times, but you force salvation on this who cannot be saved.

Paul provided clear guidance on this in Galatians 5

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

First issue you have here is showing how the Judaizer lost his salvation and you are able to accept this?!
The next is the idea that many who hold an alternative gospel to the one taught by Paul "Christ will be of no value to you at all"

Paul teaches you it’s possible for a believer to be “severed” from the Law and to this all Christians shout, "amen", however when you say they can be severed from Christ they rise up and yell abuse from their rooftops.
Why so?

firstly, because they hold a false gospel message and secondly, they do not want to accept their salvation can be lost because while their behaviour might be correct; their doctrine is false. That is what Paul spends chapters 1-4 on doctrine only to spend chapters 5-6 on behaviour.

Your approach is to say "Paul, you wasted your time writing the epistle to begin with...all in Adam sin and die and all people are saved"

Galatians 5:4 - look up the word "severed" or "cut off" and compare it to Romans 7!

Try praying first!

F2F

Men disqualify themselves by their rejection of God's gift.....gift being the operative word. God does not disqualify them.....and the scripture adds the word 'free' just to reinforce that it is solely a gift. That rejection comes in various forms, one is thinking that the combination of their performance and God's grace earns salvation, another might be trying to impress God with their perceived 'good' works, another might be relying on having all their ducks in a row doctrinally ...and there are various others any of which folk feel or pin there hope on. Ultimately it involves that something they do or contribute gives them the edge over others.

 

[Jack]

Men disqualify themselves by their rejection of God's gift.....gift being the operative word.....and the scripture adds the word 'free' just to reinforce that it is solely a gift. That rejection comes in various forms, one is thinking that the combination of their performance and God's grace earns salvation, another might be trying to impress God with their perceived 'good' works, another might be relying on having all their ducks in a row doctrinally ...and there are various others any of which folk feel or pin there hope on. Ultimately it involves that something they do or contribute gives them the edge over others.

What gift would that be? You surely don't mean a promise from the Bible that you clearly implied is WRONG? Or do you just pick the parts you like, like unbelievers do?

 

[quietthinker]

What gift would that be? You surely don't mean a promise from the Bible that you clearly implied is WRONG? Or do you just pick the parts you like, like unbelievers do?

Jack, if you were interested in being objective, if you were genuinely interested in Jesus it would be evident in your posts. However, I do not see this in your posts. What I see is a person who sits in judgement, is quick to condemn, glorifies in his ignorance and misunderstandings and feels blaming is a God given right.
Subsequently, your contributions are of little value to me with these attitudes.
Having said all that, I do not feel your questions are genuine and therefore have no further interest in engaging them.

 

[Jack]

Jack, if you were interested in being objective, if you were genuinely interested in Jesus it would be evident in your posts. However, I do not see this in your posts. What I see is a person who sits in judgement, is quick to condemn, glorifies in his ignorance and misunderstandings and feels blaming is a God given right.
Subsequently, your contributions are of little value to me with these attitudes.
Having said all that, I do not feel your questions are genuine and therefore have no further interest in engaging them.

You said Moses, Amos, Lamentations, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, Jude, Paul and Jesus are wrong. You have rejected God of the Bible. Don't blame me. You can't pick just the parts you like and be Christian! I'd say you're in DEEP trouble!

Revelation 22
19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Taken]

That is post Eden.

Those in Eden were innocents.

Those in Eden were being taught, in the WAY of God, Scripture reveals…
1) Truth first to the young
2) Result (positive consequence) of doing truth. Gifts, blessings, for no labor.
3) Warning of danger
4) Consequence of danger
5) Opportunity to correct danger.

Gen 2:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

6) Result (negative consequence) of correction rejection.

Gen 2:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Though Adam did not obey, (not innocent) he had opportunity to correct his error and remain with God, but didn’t.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Those in Eden were being taught, in the WAY of God, Scripture reveals…
1) Truth first to the young
2) Result (positive consequence) of doing truth. Gifts, blessings, for no labor.
3) Warning of danger
4) Consequence of danger
5) Opportunity to correct danger.

Gen 2:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

6) Result (negative consequence) of correction rejection.

Gen 2:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Though Adam did not obey, (not innocent) he had opportunity to correct his error and remain with God, but didn’t.

I disagree.
I think they were innocent because they did not know the difference between right and wrong,as we are told.

 

[Timtofly]

Though Adam did not obey, (not innocent) he had opportunity to correct his error and remain with God, but didn’t.

How so? Once Adam was dead physically and spiritually, he had no way to redeem nor change himself. There was no way any human could change until Jesus physically died on the Cross. Living under the Law was not a means to change. The Law was only a means to obey God to keep the Covenant in effect.

Yes, all since Adam can choose to morally be responsible and attempt to eliminate sin. But that does not change one's state of death. That only means they prevent the physical results of moral consequences. Living morally good is still a state of death and will still net one a spot in the LOF.

Nothing a human can do will redeem a soul. Submitting to the Holy Spirit is living in obedience to God. How do you know Adam never submitted to the Holy Spirit? Is that knowledge based on human theology? Extra biblical writings? Adam's disobedience brought sin into the world. God was not going to let Adam live in death for thousands of years. There was no opportunity to change humanity out of death, until the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The only 2 exceptions would be Enoch and Moses.

 

[Taken]

I disagree.
I think they were innocent because they did not know the difference between right and wrong,as we are told.

I get your point…

They were experiencing WITH God, without a negative consequence.

They were warned of a negative consequence for One particular choice.

Similar, as parents with little children.