How Evil Are Humans?

[Taken]

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

Do you base the change on knowledge or disobedience?

No. I base scriptural knowledge on what is revealed.

 

[quietthinker]

So your God is powerless to reject? Even to the one whose life is like the dirty foam washed up on a beach, is God forced to give them something? What of the double minded man (James 1:6)? Is your God bound to give the gift to all men? And what of those who never undestood the gift to begin with? Is He forced to give them the gift?

I can see the god of your making has you deceived which it why you are without wisdom and sound reasoning.

If I was to return in 6 months time could I expect to find growth in the One True God, or will you hold fast to your doctrine of wholesale grace, even the ungodly and double minded?

Like James I tell you "they can expect to receive nothing from Him"

F2F

Love is not a solely cognitive arrangement F2F, it is an emotional investment also.
God loves beyond anything you and I understand. It is of a nature that never gives up. It is of a nature that dies for enemies ie, those who care nothing for God. A refresher of 1 Corinthians 13 is helpful.
Love is also vulnerable. What do you think, is that cognitive of emotional?

Knowing Jesus is a visceral experience. It engages both the cognitive and the emotional

 

[Taken]

Was the son of God, not is the son of God.

God Declared Jesus His Son, therefore Jesus IS Gods Son.

Matt.17
[5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Mark.1
[11] And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Taken]

You claim Adam had the ability to repent, prior to being kicked out of the Garden.

No I did not claim “repentance”.
Repentance is ASKING for forgiveness.

I quoted Scripture. Adam could have taken from the Tree of Life and eaten and Lived forever.

 

[Taken]

You are arguing with Scripture. If Adam did not physically die the instant he disobeyed God, that would make God a liar.

No I am not arguing with Scripture.
I am disagreeing with your Understanding.

A physical living man Separated FROM God is wholly (body, soul, spirit) Spiritually DEAD.

 

[Taken]

Those in a state of death physically and spiritually alive on the earth keep reproducing more physical and spiritually dead humankind.

A man physically and spiritually alive…
Or
A man physically but not spiritually alive…
Reproduce offspring WITH their OWN “SEED”.

A mans “SEED” DOES NOT RE-produce a babe BORN of God.

A mans “SEED” RE-produces a babe BORN of man.

A mans “LIFE” is BLOOD.

Gods “SEED” RE-produces a “person’ BORN of God.

Gods “LIFE” is SPIRIT.

A man Re-produces “off-spring” WITHOUT the “off-springs” Consent.

God Re-produces “a mans off-spring” WITH that “mans off-spring’s” Consent.

 

[Taken]

Adam was banned from the Garden. He lived in sin and death. Seth was born in sin and death.

Every “off-spring” of a mans SEED is born IN sin.
They neither, know God, believe IN God, Love God….which IS Sin and Against God.

 

[Taken]

I find it interesting that God did not forgive Adam and Eve for their innocent mistake.
Instead he cursed all humans that would come after.

Did He curse all humans? Where?
God cursed the Serpent…Gen 3:14
God cursed the Ground….Gen 3:17

Did He “NOT” “cover Adam & his wife’s Sin?

Gen 3:
[21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Adam and Eve were set up to fall. Due to God's zeal for his own glory.
There's no free will when God holds sovereign dominion over all his creation.

No doubt, the MOST relevant thing that separates men from God…
Is His GLORY, which IS His Supreme ALL-Power, (Almighty), that is His Alone which He “gives” to no one.

Yet…God IS JUST, and to ANY WILLING man, WHO such man FREELY “chooses” to BE WITH God, God BE that mans God…
God provides…”A WAY”…
AND? To ANY man, whose WILL is NOT to be WITH God, such man can “FREELY” not choose to BE wIth God, and God NOT BE that mans God.

We choose.We use what God installed to make a choice. However,that choice is in God's will.

* God is the CREATOR…He created ALL of mankind for “his pleasure”….
“Everything God HAS CREATED, is ALREADY CREATED”…
“Men simply “WAIT” TO SEE, what God has ALREADY Created.

* God is the MAKER…He “MAKES” some of His CREATIONS “manifested” / “visible for a man’s EYES to SEE”.
* He ALSO “MAKES” some of His CREATIONS, NOT “manifested” / “visible for a man’s EYES to SEE”.
* He Reveals “VIA Words” prophecy, foretelling, OF WHAT, OF WHEN, OF WHY men “SHALL SEE” what they CAN NOT “now” SEE.

Isa 42:
[8] I am the LORD: [/U] that [/U] is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Ex 3:
[13] And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
[14] And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM . hath sent me unto you.
[15] And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Isa 41:
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

John 9:
[9] Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

All men have freewill to CHOOSE to be “WITH or WITHOUT” “I AM”.

A man who “chooses”… WITH God;
Via Gods Word (called JESUS) and Gods Power (called CHRIST) He will “MAKE” that mans CHOICE manifested.

A man who “chooses”…WITHOUT God;
Via Gods Word (called JESUS) and Gods Power (called CHRIST) He will “MAKE” that mans CHOICE manifested.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.​

Chose “us” ?
Whom did God “Choose” and “Not Choose” and WHY?

Romans 9:
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

WHAT is Gods MERCY?
WHOM DOES God extend His Mercy?
WHY does God extend His Mercy upon some, but not others?
WHAT DOES “predestine” mean to you?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jack]

Well you said not all Israel is Israel is like not all Christians are Christian’s as some will perish.

Thus in what you are saying here has to be that only true Christian Jews can be true Israel because only a Christian Jew will not perish

Never heard of Gentiles? Are you a Gentile? Oh that's right, you're Canadian. You live in a different world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Prove it then?...that Adam and Eve understood what die meant?using scripture.

It is stated in the scripture that God told Adam and Eve that they would die. This implies that they understood the concept of death. It is baseless to assume that Adam and Eve were unaware of what death meant, as there is no evidence or indication that they were ignorant or innocent. Therefore, it is logical to accept the word of God rather than inserting our own assumptions. We should not add the idea that "Adam and Eve were unaware of the concept of death" as the Bible does not mention anything like that.

I go by God’s word and I like to stay open minded....

I appreciate your commitment to following God's word, but it's important to first comprehend what God intended before living according to it. And once we have understood God's message, it's crucial to firmly believe in that truth and not keep an open mind about it.

All you have done is once again, posted your “ own” commentary....

I have explained the meaning of the text as best as I can understand it. I usually do this all the time, but when you complained about it in your message to me yesterday, I was concerned about your attitude. I was wondering why you would say such a thing to me after all our time together.

It saddens me..when people manipulate and say stuff, to try and get you to agree with their own manmade commentary...to suit their own agenda.....

I understand that you think I am trying to manipulate you, and I can see why that would make you angry. However, I want to assure you that I would never try to manipulate you into agreeing with me. After having posted online for over 30 years, I have learned to trust the Lord when it comes to my writing. My main concern is making sure that my writing is clear and readable. Whether or not someone believes me or accepts what I have to say is not up to me, but rather in God's hands.

I don’t agree with your commentary...am I upset because you don’t agree with mine...of course not....I certainly won’t deny my opinion...because it obviously upsets you.

My opinion is mine and your opinion is yours.."why it would sadden you....I have no idea.....

I know how much you love God and want to obey his word. This is why I work hard and strive to help everyone learn how to read and how to understand what is written.

Sometimes writers like Moses don't state the obvious. In fact, I've noticed that he leaves a lot unsaid, assuming that his readers will draw conclusions from their own life experiences. For example, we know from everyday experience that when people warn us of danger, they expect us to understand the warning. This is something that Moses doesn't need to explicitly tell us since we already know it. When God warned Adam and Eve about the consequences of sin, he expected them to know what "death" means. They were aware of it because they had already seen it happen to animals. Although Moses doesn't directly mention this, he assumes that the reader can deduce this from the warning itself.

Some things do not need to be expressed through words, spoken or written down. They can be understood through implication, like an unspoken agreement or rule between people that is understood without being explicitly stated. When Moses recorded God's warning to the couple about the consequences of sin, he did not need to state it directly because he knew that Adam, Eve, and his readers all shared an understanding of death. The meaning and definition of death did not need to be spoken or written down because everyone, including Adam and Eve, knew what the word meant.

I perceive the phrase "that is your opinion" as implying that my beliefs or conclusions are not supported by evidence or knowledge. I am uncertain if you intended to discredit my opinions in this way. However, I want to clarify that when I emphasize the importance of a shared understanding of danger before issuing a warning, I am not expressing a mere opinion. Rather, I am referring to the logical and conventional understanding of what a warning entails, which is to inform someone about a potential problem or risk. The notion of a warning inherently assumes an impending danger or hazard.

If Adam and Eve were not aware of the potential punishment for their behavior, it would be unjust for God to hold them accountable. However, since God DID hold them accountable, it is reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve were aware of and understood the consequences of their actions.

We should not assume that the Bible must speak to everything. If the reader and writer share common experiences and understanding, the Bible can leave some concepts unspoken in order to focus on the primary message.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is stated in the scripture that God told Adam and Eve that they would die. This implies that they understood the concept of death. It is baseless to assume that Adam and Eve were unaware of what death meant, as there is no evidence or indication that they were ignorant or innocent. Therefore, it is logical to accept the word of God rather than inserting our own assumptions. We should not add the idea that "Adam and Eve were unaware of the concept of death" as the Bible does not mention anything like that.

I appreciate your commitment to following God's word, but it's important to first comprehend what God intended before living according to it. And once we have understood God's message, it's crucial to firmly believe in that truth and not keep an open mind about it.

I have explained the meaning of the text as best as I can understand it. I usually do this all the time, but when you complained about it in your message to me yesterday, I was concerned about your attitude. I was wondering why you would say such a thing to me after all our time together.


I understand that you think I am trying to manipulate you, and I can see why that would make you angry. However, I want to assure you that I would never try to manipulate you into agreeing with me. After having posted online for over 30 years, I have learned to trust the Lord when it comes to my writing. My main concern is making sure that my writing is clear and readable. Whether or not someone believes me or accepts what I have to say is not up to me, but rather in God's hands.

I know how much you love God and want to obey his word. This is why I work hard and strive to help everyone learn how to read and how to understand what is written.

Sometimes writers like Moses don't state the obvious. In fact, I've noticed that he leaves a lot unsaid, assuming that his readers will draw conclusions from their own life experiences. For example, we know from everyday experience that when people warn us of danger, they expect us to understand the warning. This is something that Moses doesn't need to explicitly tell us since we already know it. When God warned Adam and Eve about the consequences of sin, he expected them to know what "death" means. They were aware of it because they had already seen it happen to animals. Although Moses doesn't directly mention this, he assumes that the reader can deduce this from the warning itself.

Some things do not need to be expressed through words, spoken or written down. They can be understood through implication, like an unspoken agreement or rule between people that is understood without being explicitly stated. When Moses recorded God's warning to the couple about the consequences of sin, he did not need to state it directly because he knew that Adam, Eve, and his readers all shared an understanding of death. The meaning and definition of death did not need to be spoken or written down because everyone, including Adam and Eve, knew what the word meant.

I perceive the phrase "that is your opinion" as implying that my beliefs or conclusions are not supported by evidence or knowledge. I am uncertain if you intended to discredit my opinions in this way. However, I want to clarify that when I emphasize the importance of a shared understanding of danger before issuing a warning, I am not expressing a mere opinion. Rather, I am referring to the logical and conventional understanding of what a warning entails, which is to inform someone about a potential problem or risk. The notion of a warning inherently assumes an impending danger or hazard.

If Adam and Eve were not aware of the potential punishment for their behavior, it would be unjust for God to hold them accountable. However, since God DID hold them accountable, it is reasonable to assume that Adam and Eve were aware of and understood the consequences of their actions.

We should not assume that the Bible must speak to everything. If the reader and writer share common experiences and understanding, the Bible can leave some concepts unspoken in order to focus on the primary message.

Your own commentary once again. and NO scripture whatsoever to back it up....

Plenty of commentaries out there, that say they never understood what die meant and plenty of commentaries out there that said, they knew what die meant.

As seen here...your post is yet another “ commentary “ therefore void of God’s truth.

My opinion is....Adam and Eve had no understanding of what die meant..

 

[Marty fox]

Never heard of Gentiles? Are you a Gentile? Oh that's right, you're Canadian. You live in a different world.

What’s that got to do with anything your post doesn’t help and isn’t debating and just turns people defensive and the topic at hand gets put aside because of silly statements like what you just said.

Please don’t side step what I’m saying I’m using your what you said to show you the truth only those who accept Jesus as their saviour can enter heaven so they are saved in the same way as gentile Christians

Listen to what Paul said

Galatians 3:28​

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ritajanice]

What’s that got to do with anything your post doesn’t help and isn’t debating and just turns people defensive and the topic at hand gets put aside because of silly statements like what you just said.

Please don’t side step what I’m saying I’m using your what you said to show you the truth only those who accept Jesus as their saviour can enter heaven so they are saved in the same way as gentile Christians

Listen to what Paul said

Galatians 3:28​

28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ

Would you say, we as Gentiles were grafted in by God, those who are Born Again?

 

[CadyandZoe]

They did not know the meaning of consequences,good,evil,right,wrong.

What makes you think that? Of course, they knew right from wrong. Everything about the account proves they knew right from wrong. What they didn't know was whether they were good or evil. God tested them with a commandment to obey. They disobeyed the commandment proving that they were evil.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, Gentiles are not referred to explicitly until Romans 9:24. However, they are present in Romans 9:8 in the "children of the promise", who are the Church:

Galatians 4
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul describes the Galatian Church, comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, as the "children of promise".

Yes, but remember, Paul is addressing a different topic in Romans 9, than he addresses in Galatians 4. Reading concepts from Galatians 4 INTO Romans 9 is called "eisegesis", which is not a wise or fitting method of hermeneutics.

My post of "Two Israels" describes the differences specifically.

We are looking for the differences that Paul highlights specifically. Your view doesn't attempt to make sense of Paul's argument in Romans 9. Instead, you attempt to make sense of Galatians and then superimpose Galatians onto Romans 9.

 

[Marty fox]

Would you say, we as Gentiles were grafted in by God, those who are Born Again?

Of course Romans 11 states it but we arn‘t grafted into Israel we are grafted along with faithful Israel into Jesus the olive root

 

[Marty fox]

No I did not claim “repentance”.
Repentance is ASKING for forgiveness.

I quoted Scripture. Adam could have taken from the Tree of Life and eaten and Lived forever.

Actually repenting means turning away from

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your own commentary once again. and NO scripture whatsoever to back it up....

I gave you scripture to back it up.

Here it is again.

Genesis 2:16-18

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”​

Do you notice something missing in Genesis? The text does not record Adam's follow-up question indicating that he didn't understand what God meant. If Adam was confused by God's words, he would have asked for clarification, just as we see in other passages of Genesis where people question the meaning of something.

Genesis 21:29

Abimelech said to Abraham, “What do these seven ewe lambs mean, which you have set by themselves?”​

Abraham didn't understand the meaning of the seven ewe lambs, so he asked. Similarly, if Adam didn't comprehend the significance of the word "die," he would have inquired of God. We can't assume that Adam didn't know the meaning.

Plenty of commentaries out there, that say they never understood what die meant and plenty of commentaries out there that said, they knew what die meant. As seen here...your post is yet another “ commentary “ therefore void of God’s truth.

I don't know why you would compare my post with other commentaries. I don't want you to rely on me or other commentaries. I want you to be convinced in your own mind based on the text before us.

Understanding how language works to convey ideas is crucial in making informed decisions. Unlike the present times, where we tend to be verbose in our expressions, the ancients used to be brief and to the point. The high cost of writing materials forced them to use the least amount of words possible. If the writer and the reader shared something in common, the concept was left unspoken. Moses was an efficient and concise writer. He expected his readers to deduce ideas from the context, rather than the words. This approach is still relevant today, as it allows for clearer and more effective communication.

A writer usually explains things in the text only if the reader cannot understand the meaning from the context. In this particular situation, Moses expects the reader to know, just as he does, that a punishment associated with disobedience assumes that the person being commanded understands both the commandment and the punishment.

The assumption that God's commandments and their associated punishments are clear and easily understood is shared by Moses with his readers. The writer and the reader both take for granted the comprehension of the command and the punishment without any need for explicit explanation or argumentation. Moses leaves this presupposition unspoken. If Adam were to fail to understand the command or the punishment, this would require Moses to mention it, as it is assumed that Adam already understands them.

If you want to call this "commentary" then okay. But I am giving you reasons for you to consider. Please don't reject my reasons out of hand simply because they are "commentary." My point comes directly from the text, based on the principles of language.

My opinion is....Adam and Eve had no understanding of what die meant..

It is pointless to threaten someone with punishment if they do not comprehend the consequences of their actions. When God forbade Adam from eating the fruit of the tree, He was attempting to dissuade him by making the cost of disobedience higher than the apparent benefit. By giving Adam this command, God was essentially inviting him to consider the positive and negative consequences before making a decision. What was Adam's motivation to avoid the fruit, and what was the reward he hoped to gain by disobeying God? The significance of this event is lost if Adam did not completely understand the choice he was making.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So who was Paul talking about when he said not all Israel are Israel?

He discussed how each descendant of Jacob relates to God's promise about Israel.

 

[Ritajanice]

I gave you scripture to back it up.

Here it is again.

Genesis 2:16-18

The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”​

Do you notice something missing in Genesis? The text does not record Adam's follow-up question indicating that he didn't understand what God meant. If Adam was confused by God's words, he would have asked for clarification, just as we see in other passages of Genesis where people question the meaning of something.

Genesis 21:29

Abimelech said to Abraham, “What do these seven ewe lambs mean, which you have set by themselves?”​

Abraham didn't understand the meaning of the seven ewe lambs, so he asked. Similarly, if Adam didn't comprehend the significance of the word "die," he would have inquired of God. We can't assume that Adam didn't know the meaning.


I don't know why you would compare my post with other commentaries. I don't want you to rely on me or other commentaries. I want you to be convinced in your own mind based on the text before us.

Understanding how language works to convey ideas is crucial in making informed decisions. Unlike the present times, where we tend to be verbose in our expressions, the ancients used to be brief and to the point. The high cost of writing materials forced them to use the least amount of words possible. If the writer and the reader shared something in common, the concept was left unspoken. Moses was an efficient and concise writer. He expected his readers to deduce ideas from the context, rather than the words. This approach is still relevant today, as it allows for clearer and more effective communication.

A writer usually explains things in the text only if the reader cannot understand the meaning from the context. In this particular situation, Moses expects the reader to know, just as he does, that a punishment associated with disobedience assumes that the person being commanded understands both the commandment and the punishment.

The assumption that God's commandments and their associated punishments are clear and easily understood is shared by Moses with his readers. The writer and the reader both take for granted the comprehension of the command and the punishment without any need for explicit explanation or argumentation. Moses leaves this presupposition unspoken. If Adam were to fail to understand the command or the punishment, this would require Moses to mention it, as it is assumed that Adam already understands them.

If you want to call this "commentary" then okay. But I am giving you reasons for you to consider. Please don't reject my reasons out of hand simply because they are "commentary." My point comes directly from the text, based on the principles of language.

It is pointless to threaten someone with punishment if they do not comprehend the consequences of their actions. When God forbade Adam from eating the fruit of the tree, He was attempting to dissuade him by making the cost of disobedience higher than the apparent benefit. By giving Adam this command, God was essentially inviting him to consider the positive and negative consequences before making a decision. What was Adam's motivation to avoid the fruit, and what was the reward he hoped to gain by disobeying God? The significance of this event is lost if Adam did not completely understand the choice he was making.

You gave no scripture, to say, that Adam and Eve knew what to die meant..or what good and evil were....none whatsoever..you gave your own commentary...and taking a verse out of scripture..means nothing about ,what it means to die..they never knew what it meant..my opinion.

Don’t force your own commentary onto me...as I rebuke it.

You posted this verse,
Now .post the verse that Adam and Eve knew what to die meant.
Genesis 2:16-18
The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”