The first century. Just a guess.When do you think the question of “how long” in Revelation 6:10 is asked?
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The first century. Just a guess.When do you think the question of “how long” in Revelation 6:10 is asked?
Yea, I would agree, it was asked some time prior to the writing of Revelation.The first century. Just a guess.
Read 2 Corinthians 5 and you will see the church is gathering in Paradise, because of the Cross. Those in Christ are only ambassadors on earth; representing that kingdom in Paradise.
Some are good ambassadors. Some are lukewarm ambassadors. Some are horrible ambassadors. The responsibility of the church is the time spent on earth. Paradise is the retirement package.
Those "under the alter" symbolize the church in Paradise. They have all shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh as their testimony to God.
Hebrews 11:13-16
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
That country is Paradise, the heavenly place prepared for the church. But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body. All the OT redeemed were the firstfruits of the church. They were made alive at the Cross, per the order Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. They are the firstfruits of the NT church in the part: Christ the firstfruits. All in Christ since the Cross enter Paradise. Then at the Second Coming, those alive on the earth will join them. That is when the robe of white is put on. That is the glorification of the church. That is the whole and only point of the 5th Seal.
Read 2 Corinthians 5 and you will see the church is gathering in Paradise, because of the Cross. Those in Christ are only ambassadors on earth; representing that kingdom in Paradise.
Some are good ambassadors. Some are lukewarm ambassadors. Some are horrible ambassadors. The responsibility of the church is the time spent on earth. Paradise is the retirement package.
Those "under the alter" symbolize the church in Paradise. They have all shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh as their testimony to God.
Hebrews 11:13-16
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
That country is Paradise, the heavenly place prepared for the church. But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body. All the OT redeemed were the firstfruits of the church. They were made alive at the Cross, per the order Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 15. They are the firstfruits of the NT church in the part: Christ the firstfruits. All in Christ since the Cross enter Paradise. Then at the Second Coming, those alive on the earth will join them. That is when the robe of white is put on. That is the glorification of the church. That is the whole and only point of the 5th Seal.
But the OT redeemed could not enter Paradise until Jesus ascended after the resurrection of His physical body.
Could be but I see them as beg of judgement on Jerusalem by the RomansMarty,
The four horses IMO are the same horses we read of in Zechariah. But the message is now changed instead of bringing a message of peace, the horses are sent out to fulfill the prophecy of Haggai. Zechariah writes they were sent by God to walk back and forth upon the earth. The report from the angel of the LORD then was that the earth sits still and is at rest. The four horses of the Revelation are sent not to find a world in stillness and rest, but are sent to bring judgment upon the earth.
Zechariah 1:8-11 (KJV) I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that were in the bottom; and behind him were there red horses, speckled, and white. Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be. And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth. And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Haggai 2:20-23 (KJV) And again the word of the LORD came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.
In an effort to keep this from becoming a book, I'll stop here, so I can know if you've come to similar conclusions.
Could be but I see them as beg of judgement on Jerusalem by the Romans
I agree with linking Ezekiel 1:10 and Revelation 4:7, but if they are symbolic of evil power why would they be giving glory, honor, and thanks to God in Revelation 4:9?I believe the four beasts both Ezekiel and John see represent the same thing. And the horses symbolize these four beasts that are symbolic of the evil powers described under the emblem of wild beasts through brute force, and unrestrained passion, and self-will. The beasts of Ezekiel and John I believe are depicting the same thing. Even though John writes of these beasts as horses with riders, I believe these four horses of the Revelation are also the four beasts of Zechariah, Ezekiel, and John.
I agree with linking Ezekiel 1:10 and Revelation 4:7, but if they are symbolic of evil power why would they be giving glory, honor, and thanks to God in Revelation 4:9?
You’re saying Revelation 4:8 takes place prior to creation?I believe Rev 4-6 is prophecy ordained in heaven before creation, before Satan and his minions were cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born (Rev 12). IMO that's why they are seen in heaven before the advent of Christ come to earth a man.
You’re saying Revelation 4:8 takes place prior to creation?
If so what about the statement in Revelation 4:8 “which was, and is, and is to come”? A similar statement is made in Revelation 17:8 about the beast with seven heads “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” and “was, and is not, and yet is”.
Do you think these kind of statements are related to a point in time when the vision occurs or are they just showing a characteristic that both God and the beast have? I know God is omnipresent but I don’t think the beast or Satan is.
So then someone could say that since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and since Him being slain is what binds Satan, then Satan was bound from the foundation of the world, at least in some way I suppose.Not literally, but yes through Covenant that God ordained in heaven before creation. The symbolism in the Revelation is all that comes to pass throughout redemptive history through the Lamb of God, who was slain (according to promise) from the foundation of the world. IOW God's plan to redeem a people for Himself was determined through the triune Godhead by promise/covenant and all that comes about throughout human history is written as being past, present and future in the book of Revelation. I believe the Revelation of Jesus Christ tells the story of redemption through the slain Lamb, with God foreknowing the fall of mankind, and the need for a Saviour before sin and death through sin entered creation. The same prophecy being repeated ends with what has come to pass on earth from the fall, and then progresses to what is and shall be through the first advent of Christ, and finally what comes to pass when the Kingdom of God is complete and the time comes for the finality of the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the whole earth of the ungodly, and gathering together all who are of faith in Him.
So then someone could say that since the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and since Him being slain is what binds Satan, then Satan was bound from the foundation of the world, at least in some way I suppose.
Some people will use Revelation 17:8 to show the distinction between when Satan is bound and when he’s not. It just seems like Revelation 4:8 should be making a similar distinction, maybe like time prior to the cross, the time after the cross, and the time after His return.
I agree, if God promised something we can consider it as if it already happened, that’s how absolutely sure we are of God’s word. That’s why in the original post I wonder why anyone needs to ask a question that God has already answered.Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world according to promise. For His sacrifice to make atonement for sin and defeat death, Christ must literally come to do the work ordained of Him from the foundation of the world. Since none of the promises of God shall ever fail, His promise to save His people from their sins is as good as being accomplished when the promise was made, but that does not mean the promises of God to save a people for Himself would not come literally through the advent of Christ when He came to earth a man.
I’m no longer an Amil but I used to see it as you do, where Satan is bound after the cross. I think most Amil use Revelation 17:8 to show that Satan was bound at the time Revelation was written because it says “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit”, meaning Satan wasn’t bound, now is bound, and will come out of the pit after the millennium.Satan was bound when Christ made atonement for sin and defeated death. He will not be loosed until the thousand years shall expire. Then only for a little season. I don't believe Satan's little season is the same little season the martyred souls under the altar are told they must wait. I believe the little season the souls are told they must wait began when the earthly ministry of Christ began when He was anointed at His baptism. The little season for them I believe is during the three and one half year ministry of Christ before His cross. They had to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death before they could ascend with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers who are now living souls in heaven without physical form.
The question is "how long?".I don’t need to know the exact moment of many things. I don’t need to know the exact moment in time that Jesus died on the cross, as you know there are people who think 30AD and others think 33AD but pin pointing the exact moment doesn’t change the fact that He did die for our sins.
You have a problem when you put the fifth seal question being asked in the future. And that problem is that we currently know the answer, we have this knowledge. It makes no sense to ask a question that you already know the answer to.
Again are you planning on asking Jesus questions like where were you born or what was your mother’s name? You apparently are unable to tell us why you personally would do such a thing.
Here’s the answer … and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.The question is "how long?".
You have yet to provide an answer.
I’m no longer an Amil but I used to see it as you do, where Satan is bound after the cross. I think most Amil use Revelation 17:8 to show that Satan was bound at the time Revelation was written because it says “was, is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit”, meaning Satan wasn’t bound, now is bound, and will come out of the pit after the millennium.
The thing I’m questioning is if we say Revelation 4:8 is based solely on Gods promises then a Premil can use this same logic on Revelation 17:8 and say John just spoke of it as if Satan was bound at that time because of Gods promises but Satan wasn’t actually bound when John wrote Revelation.
That’s why I don’t understand using this type of logic to say that when the four beasts in Revelation 4:8 say “which was, and is, and is to come”, that it’s based on Gods promises and not based on the time at which it was said.
I don't believe Satan's little season is the same little season the martyred souls under the altar are told they must wait. I believe the little season the souls are told they must wait began when the earthly ministry of Christ began when He was anointed at His baptism. The little season for them I believe is during the three and one half year ministry of Christ before His cross. They had to wait for Christ to atone for sin and defeat death before they could ascend with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers who are now living souls in heaven without physical form.
How can this little season that you already agree is not meaning satan's little season, not be pertaining to any of the following?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
What I have underlined in Revelation 20:4, this martyrdom occurs during what I have underlined in Revelation 12 and 13. Clearly then, the 42 month month reign of the beast does not follow the the thousand years, it precedes the beginning of the thousand years since the martyrdom I have underlined in Revelation 20:4 has to occur during the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously.
What I've found to typically be true is that when one has the proper understanding of Amil it is the only end time doctrine that makes sense.
If Amil made sense Amil would agree with the chronology of events pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast, the 2nd coming, and where the thousand years fit in relation to these things.
Fact 1. The 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the 2nd coming in the end of this age.
Fact 2. The 42 month reign of the beast isn't meaning satan's little season, it is meaning the little season per the 5th seal.
Therefore, Amil is impossible since Amil needs satan's little season to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast, except Revelation 20:4 already undeniably proves that the 42 month reign of the beast does not follow the thousand years. How then can the 42 month reign of the beast precede the 2nd coming per Amil, when that requires that the the 42 month reign of the beast and satan's little season, that these are one and the same?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(these are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, not during satan's little season instead. After all, they are obviously already martyred way before satan's little season even begins) ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.