Every English Bible I know of says you're wrong. Are you really willing to burn in Hell if you're wrong???I know the traditional view of Hell is eternal. I have always had a problem with that. This prompted me to do a thorough study of the nature of Hell which led me to write a book entitled, "Hell ... If I Know". Now, that doesn't make me right. I can just say that I have done much study on the subject. The words used for eternity, ever, everlasting, (aion, aionios, anionion) are conditional and variable according to how they are applied. If they are used to describe a temporal realm, they can only have a finite meaning. Mountains aren't eternal or everlasting. If Hades is part of the underworld, inside the earth, then it is temporal. So these words when applied to a temporal realm mean ages, lifetimes, generations . When applied to God, His domain or our salvation, they mean eternal, without end. Also, destruction means just that, to put an end to. You can't destroy something for eternity. It would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. 2 Peter 3:10 describes an event when the (first heavens and earth and universe) destroyed in a fervent heat. If unbelievers are now in Hades awaiting for their final judgment, why would God resurrect them only to put them back in a pit, the same place? They are already judged. One life, one death, then the judgment. The second death is actually merciful in that God puts an end to their miserable existence. How would God be glorified by keeping prisoners, suffering in torment for eternity - for just sinning in some cases a few decades? The judgments and punishment of God have always been proportionate to the sin. Besides at the end of the Bible, it says all former things have passed away, behold I make all things new AND there will be no more pain and suffering. This is a message to Christians who will be in heaven. Obviously in heaven there is no pain or suffering, it goes without saying. No, this means no pain or suffering anywhere and death is destroyed. What is death? And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28
The Lake of Fire or Hell
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Every English Bible I know of says you're wrong. Are you really willing to burn in Hell if you're wrong???
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
So how often do you enter the lake of fire and pull people out of it?
I understand everything you are saying. But you don't understand anything I am saying.
Quoting scripture is good. You can't save people only God can do that.
You can warn them, plant seeds, explain your interpretation, with a spirit of meekness and gentleness.
Your still rough around the edges. I can hear your frustration. Literally.
Tell me what you hear. How do you understand the scriptures that you quoted.
Do you take them liteally as written or do you think there could be deeper meanings within them?
Meditation, David talks about meditating on Gods laws and his ways. Every psalm is a meditation.
It is a song sung from the heart.
Paul tells us to meditate on these things:
Phl 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Scripture and learning and studying take a lot of thought and time.
Somethings are given from the beginning and other things you have to dig for the meanings like hidden treasure.
What does it mean to you to pull someone out of the fire? Is it literal or metaphorical?
How do you hear it?
Sincerely,
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
so who are those on the outside of the gate in Revelation 22:15.
If all those who worship the beast get thrown into the lake of fire and are tormented forever and ever. who are these on the outside?
And are they in a lake of fire or in darkness?
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Hugs
This first part is done metaphorically or a symbol especially in Revelation with all its symbolic language. The souls under the altar of Revelation do not refer to living, conscious, immortal souls of dead people in heaven. These "souls" or "lives" are a symbol of those whose blood was poured out for Christ's sake. Their blood is crying out to God from the ground Its the same as when God told Cain your brothers blood cries out, did it?
Genesis 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
No it was meant as symbol of the wrong done to his brother, the injustice of it called out, much like the saints that were killed for their witness they gave of Christ.
As for the spirt that returns to God, it is what He gave to man to make him alive, the 'breath of life', what makes you breath and keeps you alive.
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I went over that but we can suffice to say it is what makes you come alive as a human being when you breath, and the Hebrew and Greek words 'nephesh' and 'psuche', for soul never refer to a part of a person that can have existence separate from the body.
Well, our time here comes for an end as we go to heaven, and no one is left on earth for the Millennium. The Millennium is the 1000 year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections, before the New Jerusalem comes down.
When Christ comes and every eye sees Him in the clouds, He takes the saints to heaven for the Millennium. In this 1000 year period of which Revelation speaks of, Satan's influence over the earth will be restricted as their will be no one on earth for him to tempt, and Christ will reign with His saints in heaven as the go over the books of the wicked put into the graves by His coming.
You can see Revelation 19 and 20 belong together, there is no break between these chapters. They describe Christ's Second Coming and immediately continue with the Millennium, their sequence indicating that the millennium begins when Christ comes at the Second Coming and takes the saints up. We see what is given here in Revelation 20..
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
At this point, the Second Coming, the first resurrection takes place. The righteous saints, the 'Blessed and holy,' who are resurrected and taken up, 'on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years' in heaven going over the books and vindicating Gods justice.
For the saints, death is just what they are appointed as a human being/mankind. But for the wicked, they are not going to be given 'eternal life, but suffer the second death which is described and given in the Bible..
Isaiah 47:10-14
10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me.
11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
12 Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.
13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.
14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rella ~ I am a woman
Well-Known Member
Now many think that the fires of hell are burning now, but this is the old Greek though of 'Hades" confusing many people today. We see many passages that show us when it will occur for the wicked and others of evil.
Job 21:30-32
30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
job 21:30-32 gives us a picture about hell and when its fires will burn. Job says, "For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; they shall be brought out on the day of wrath.” This text along with 2 Peter 3:7 shows that hell is not burning now, but at some date in the future the wicked are reserved and brought forth out of their graves for the day of wrath, and we see for the angels that sinned.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Job 21:30-32
30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
job 21:30-32 gives us a picture about hell and when its fires will burn. Job says, "For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; they shall be brought out on the day of wrath.” This text along with 2 Peter 3:7 shows that hell is not burning now, but at some date in the future the wicked are reserved and brought forth out of their graves for the day of wrath, and we see for the angels that sinned.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
I see some are influenced with new age religion interpretation and teaching of God' word. This occurs when those who are afraid of God's true word...seek relief from new interpretations. Sad.
The Bible says fear God...not as in street fear but, fear as in believing His word. That is a motivator to remain righteous and steadfast in the resolve of faith in His word. As I read His actual words I shiver with renewed commitment to do all I can to avoid
the lake of fire....which i believe is real and forever. Likewise being saved from the wrath...... warned in scriptures...... is ....forever.
The Bible says fear God...not as in street fear but, fear as in believing His word. That is a motivator to remain righteous and steadfast in the resolve of faith in His word. As I read His actual words I shiver with renewed commitment to do all I can to avoid
the lake of fire....which i believe is real and forever. Likewise being saved from the wrath...... warned in scriptures...... is ....forever.
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I agree the Revelation does contain much symbolic language. The purpose for referring to these martyred saints as 'souls' indicates life after physical death. Because without life in some form they cannot be souls. Why is it important for John to speak of these martyred saints as 'souls'? To prove the life we have when we live and believe in Christ shall NEVER die. John would not have referred to them as souls if there was no life in them. John was given to understand life where there should have been none, to prove the life we have in Christ when we believe is never ending, John saw a spiritual body of believers in heaven as living souls without physical form.
The blood of Abel crying from the ground is another example of life after death for those who die in faith. Life is in the blood. The blood does not literally cry out, but symbolically blood crying from the ground indicates there is still life of Abel after he was slain.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If you search the Strong's Concordance for "breath of life" you find it is defined both soul and spirit alive. God created a body of flesh and breathed into man the breath of life (spirit/soul) and they became a living soul or breathing creature. A living soul cannot continue to have life without the spirit (breath of life) that returns to God in unbelief in darkness and silence. But a living soul having everlasting spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in them returns to God alive. Because the life we receive from Christ when we have been born again is everlasting life.
The spirit that returns to God after physical death is the breath of life that gave our mortal body physical life for earth. For all who physically die in faith, our breath of life (spirit/soul) does not cease to be alive after our physical body breathes its last. Believers shall continue to have never ending life after physical death through the power of the Holy Spirit in us. And we have assurance that the Spirit from Christ will not depart from us before we are bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Burn in Hell? Whether hell is eternal or not does not invalidate one's salvation. Frankly I believe the jury is not out on the subject. How can you imply that I would go to hell? Where does it say a belief in a finite hell is a sin? It is not an essential requirement for salvation to believe in an eterna hell. I am saved. It's like saying if one believes in a theistic evolution, they will go to hell.
Or if one is an Amillennialist or not they will go. Some doctrines are mysterious and words are mistranslated. People are wrong about many doctrines that do not effect their salvation
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However aren't you questioning God's word...as to warnings of loss of salvation?
Can u feel comfortable in believing some of His word and not all?
Do you have the right for acceptance or rejection?........ i think not.
Don't have to. God's Word does it!
I don't need to "interpret". God's Word is clear.
Satan hates the Literal Christian Bible! He wants our company in Hell, "forever and ever".
"Death" NEVER means cease to exist for humans in the Bible.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
You're saying all of our English Bibles are wrong? They all warn us of the "everlasting fire" that Jesus clearly taught!
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Don't have to. God's Word does it!
Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,
So this doesn't apply to you and yet you want to take responsibity for doing so.
I don't need to "interpret". God's Word is clear.
1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
So this doesn't apply to you having an interpretation. Because you haven't had an aha moment. But when you do, you will need to interpret the meaning of the "revelation" that a certain verse or concept has been revealed to you.
(ἑρμηνεύω), interpretation (of what has been spoken more or less obscurely by others):
Psa 78:2
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Mat 13:3
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
- proverb, parable
- proverb, proverbial saying, aphorism
- byword
- similitude, parable
- poem
- sentences of ethical wisdom, ethical maxims
Aphorism
An aphorism is a concise, terse, laconic, or memorable expression of a general truth or principle. Aphorisms are often handed down by tradition from generation to generation. The concept is generally distinct from those of an adage, brocard, chiasmus, epigram, maxim, principle, proverb, and saying; although some of these concepts may be construed as types of aphorism. Often, aphorisms are distinguished from other short sayings by the need for interpretation to make sense of them. WikipediaSatan hates the Literal Christian Bible! He wants our company in Hell, "forever and ever".
1Pe 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Devour:
kat-ap-ee'-no; from G2596 and G4095; to drink down, i.e. gulp entire (literally or figuratively):—devour, drown, swallow (up).
Isa 5:13
Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isa 5:14
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isa 5:15
And the mean man shall be brought down, and the mighty man shall be humbled, and the eyes of the lofty shall be humbled:
Isa 5:16
But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.
Eze 32:18
Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
Hmm... Who is the Son of Man that casts them down unto the nether parts of the earth?
You can't claim your job is to go into the fire and pull people out, using the "literal" wording, and then turn around and use the Word of God as a "metaphorical" reference. It's either/or . right?
Do you understand the parab;e of the ten virgins and how do you interpret it? or is this meant in the literal sense?
Mat 25:1
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
What are the lamps and what is the oil? Are they literal lamps and oil or do they have a spiritual interpretation?
If there is something in you that is sinful or opposed to God's ways. Satan is going to amplify and tempt you with the very thing that is weak in you. If you are covetous, he will convince you to steal. If you are strong then he has no power over you and you won't steal.
Satan attacks those who don't know God's word and his promises. That's why we are told to study and show ourselves approved unto God.
He can trip you up in the scriptures and twist them so you hear what you want to hear.
If you are authoritative and judgmental, he will have you use the scriptures to attack people.
If you are gentle and meek, he has no power over you, it is God's spirit which leads you to to find peace with people.
Satan has no power over you accept what power you give him.
Put on the armour of God and wear it always.
Hugs
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
@Jack too.
No, just the translation of a few words that are crucial. It is a fact that aionios can mean ages, generations or lifetimes and not eternal. Aion can is the songular form. So the word everlasting is really age-lasting or age-during. It has a finite meaning when applied to this temperal realm which will pass away.
If God really meant to say eternal damnation, I have no problem with His judgment IF that is the original verdict he gives for ALL
To the teenager who sinned for 16 years, eternal damnation? I just don't believe that was the original thought. It's worse than putting a child in prison for stealing a bar of candy.
I believe the entire Bible. A non-Trinitarian ir an Amillennialist or a Universalist would say the same; yet we duffer un our beliefs. I am questioning one doctrine. Actually Martin Luther also had a problem with that doctrine too. I have read John Calvin discouraged him from going there. In other words Luther's 95 Theses was enough for the Church to swallow. I think many scholars have struggled with this concept of eternal damnation. Many people are reluctant to receive Christianity because of this one concept.
If Jesus Himself told me personally, "Ron, the Lake of Fire is eternal", I would not reject it. I just think eternal damnatiom is His judgment.
I have been led by the Holy Spirit throughout my walk for over three decades. He has given me truth and I have made errors and misunderstood at times and was corrected. If I am wrong about this concept, He will correct me.
Back to the translation. Here is the key scripture that uses aionion for both realms, punishment (in Hell) and eternal life (in Heaven):
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:46 KJV
Notice different English words are used for the same Greek word. Why? Because I think they knew there was a difference. Everlasting means age-lasting or age-during. And eternal has a different and infinite meaning.
The NKJV is a modern English translation. Many words and even phrases have been changed. I use both. But this verse hasn't changed. The AKJV says the same. Actually all these translations use everlasting punishment: BRG, DRA, GNV, NMB, RGT, NTFE, WYC, VOICE, TLV. That is 12 out of 60 translations. All the rest use eternal punishment.
Youngs Literal translation, which I reference often, says this: And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
He used the same word for both. Why? Throughout history, ages differ in lengths of time. What is the age of death, which is the duration of someone's punishment? In other words what is the totality of death? Is it the same for everyone? Is God's judgment the same for Hitler as it would be for a 16 year old who never killed anyone, but just died before he received Christ?
We know that God is eternal, His domain is eternal and so when we enter into a relationship with Him, it is eternal, outside of time and age. Still, I wouldn't use age to describe the life Jesus gives us. Age connotates a finite meaning.
I like this translation: And these shall go away to age-lasting punishment, but the righteous to life eternal.
WE must clearly understand what 'souls' are, they are the whole of the person, as we use 'there were 102 souls' lost on the ship, etc... We will get to heaven once we are given 'life' and risen up at the resurrection, Christ recreates us body and soul, (what makes us 'us, our whole personal characteristics) and we are taken up to heaven.
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