They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[PinSeeker]

The Bible doesn't specifically tell us where the GWTJ shall take place David.

True. Some think the Mount of Olives, some think Mount Sinai, some think in Jerusalem, some think, more or less, all of the above. But it will be here on earth... before New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to us...

For all we know it could be in outer darkness where there is said to be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

This is where the unrepentant are sent as a result of the final Judgment. And we do not know where that is, either, but we do know that it is... away from Christ, not in the New Heaven and New Earth.

You try harder than anyone I know to prove your doctrine of deception.

Ahhhhh, come on, now, RWB...

Neither Matthew nor Luke tell us Christ will reign on this earth!

Well, they don't say Christ will reign on this earth in person before or during the millennium, the time when the Gospel is being taken to all peoples and all nations. Which may be what you are saying here, and if so, I agree.

Grace and peace to you, RWB.

 

[Davidpt]

The Judgment depicted by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and the Judgment depicted in the vision given to John in Revelation 20:11-15 are one and the same, yes.


Right, Jesus returns, and executes the final Judgment.


Hm, interesting. Very rarely have I heard Jesus's parable of Luke 19 brought up as a depiction of the judgment. Yes, but that's not Jesus's point in telling the parable; it's much more an exhortation of what we should be doing during the time before Jesus's return. But yes, that is in some sense a depiction of the same event, the final Judgment. In order of occurrence:

* Regardless of the passage (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 19:15b-26, Revelation 20), yes, the final Judgment takes place on earth, just after Jesus's return...​

​

Christ's return is depicted various ways in Zechariah 14:4, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 19:15a, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 8:1, Revelation 11:15-19 , Revelation 19:11, Revelation 20:9​

​

* ...and the second resurrection...​

​

The second resurrection is depicted in John 5:28-29 and is properly placed in Revelation 20 just prior to the scene beginning in Revelation 20:11​

​

* ...and prior to the full ushering in of the New Heaven and New Earth​

​

Seen in Revelation 21:1-8.​

Whatever one's view of the millennium, what some (maybe many) are missing is that, as I have pointed out several times before, God is not somehow "making all new things," but, rather, God is "making all things new" (Revelation 21:5).

Grace and peace to all.

My point about the Luke 19 parable in question is that it literally takes place on the earth, except some Amils have the entire planet engulfed in flames at the time, thus no habitable earth to return to, thus they insist that Jesus doesn't set foot on the earth again until after the great white throne judgment is in the past.

Clearly, the GWTJ is not yet in the past as of this parable. If one insists that the GWTJ is meant by this parable, what does one do with the following, for example?

Luke 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.


Regardless what it looks like to have authority over ten cities, is not the point. The timing and length of it is the point. It certainly isn't something involving Revelation 20:11-15 if right after that judgment is concluded it then results in the following.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Once again, regardless what it looks like to have authority over 10 cities, as if it makes sense to give out that authority then take it away the very same day because 1 Corinthians 15:28 has now been fulfilled instead. IOW, Amil makes zero sense, since there is no era of time after Christ has returned in order for some of these things to fit. As if one should maybe take Luke 19:17, for example, to be involving all of eternity rather than a period of time that has a beginning and an ending. That it makes sense that they still have this same authority over 10 cities even after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled.

Let's face it, Amil cuts out a good portion of the Bible per their view of things since they have no era of time post the 2nd coming where these things can fit during.

 

[Timtofly]

The Bible doesn't specifically tell us where the GWTJ shall take place David. For all we know it could be in outer darkness where there is said to be weeping and gnashing of teeth? You try harder than anyone I know to prove your doctrine of deception. We know only when the GWTJ shall be, and that is after this time symbolized a thousand years has expired and after Satan has his little season. Frankly, I don't care where it occurs, but I know when and that it most assuredly shall occur after the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

Neither Matthew nor Luke tell us Christ will reign on this earth! You must read your doctrine of deception into the passages. Christ ascended back to heaven, which is what the parable is telling us, after He resurrected from the dead. When He returns the second time, just as we read elsewhere, the enemies of Christ shall be destroyed.

It Christ has not already ascended to heaven as Scripture proves, where did He go when He was physically seen ascending up by His disciples when He departed from this earth? Christ already ascended up to heaven, and He won't be ascending up again, He will be seen coming down from heaven in the same manner He was seen departing this earth. The only one being dishonest in these discussions is the one trying to prove doctrines of deception!

How does this make sense?

"Neither Matthew nor Luke tell us Christ will reign on this earth! Christ already ascended up to heaven, and He won't be ascending up again."

You contradict your own point.

If Jesus will not ascend again, then at the Second Coming He reigns on the earth for this thousand years. Because Jesus will not ascend again after the Second Coming.

John is not implying that Revelation 20 is some symbolic time frame about the First Coming as Messiah. That is all Amil theory, they make up in their head. Revelation 20 does not mention a Second Coming nor birth of Jesus at the beginning, nor at the end. Amil impose that into the chapter, and then accuse every one else of imposing their beliefs into the chapter. Pre-mill do not impose anything into Revelation 20. Revelation 20 starts when the 7th Trumpet stops. Revelation 20 is a new period of time in the book of Revelation. The old gone, and the new begins just as Noah stepped off the ark onto a new earth, after the Flood, which destroyed the old earth.

The Lord does not make any changes for the next 1,000 years. Then Satan is loosed for a short period of time. The whole point of this chapter per pre-mill is that the Second Coming already happened, and Jesus never ascended back into heaven, but reigns on a throne on the earth. So you admit Jesus never ascends after the Second Coming, so do pre-mill. But if Jesus does not ascend are you saying Jesus stops reigning then? That contradicts the whole point of reigning after the Second Coming.

Where in any Scripture points to Jesus ever stopping His eternal reign from Genesis 1 into forever? Paul never implies in 1 Corinthians 15 that Jesus stops reigning nor stops existing either. It is creation that has a beginning and an end in Jesus.

The Day of the Lord is the Sabbath, a period of rest, that creation enters into. After 6 days of being under the bondage of sin and death, creation is restored and no longer under that bondage. This 1,000 years is creation living under the state of being made alive after 6,000 years of being in the state of death. All Amil do is deny the Day of the Lord is a Sabbath, and declare it is the last 2 Days of sin and death. And many agree with Preterist that every thing was symbolically destroyed in the first century, and pretend a Sabbath is equal to two days of the week. The earth has entered into the rest God planned two millennia ago. Daniel 9:24 has been literal reality since the Cross, or 3.5 years after the Cross. This is what Amil imply in their rhetoric.

 

[Timtofly]

The Judgment depicted by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and the Judgment depicted in the vision given to John in Revelation 20:11-15 are one and the same, yes.

If this were true, then you deny the Trinity. Most of the church accepts that Jesus and God are distinct individuals, thus cannot be sitting on the same throne.

In fact God on the throne has always been since Genesis 1. John is not saying that this GWT suddenly pops into existence. John is finally describing God's throne that has always been. I have no answer why no one else in Scripture has stated that the throne is white. But "great" can been seen even in the Psalms. Isaiah in chapter 66 points out the base of this throne is on the earth and also fills the heaven above. This throne has always been in the same location. God is not sitting in two seperate thrones, one located in heaven and another one based on the earth. It is simply a very large throne that takes up space in both heaven and earth. The earth is the footstool. The base where the feet are firmly planted.


When John describes the throne in Revelation 20, the earth and heaven have stopped existing and only the throne and LOF remain. Not that this GWT suddenly appears. In fact this throne is mentioned in Revelation 6:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

The one sitting on the throne is distinct from the Lamb, who is Jesus, who will sit on His own throne on the earth. And in Matthew 25, the earth is still there, because the angels are gathering living humans, not yet physically dead, and bringing them to Jesus to be judged, not to God sitting elsewhere on the GWT. At this point the 42 months in Revelation 13 has not even started. Certainly those 42 months have to happen prior to heaven and earth, no longer existing. What gives any human the right to re-arrange the entire book of Revelation to prove their private opinion on the matter is correct?

Jesus still has a physical body that is normal, and even if that Body is actually 30 feet tall instead of 6 feet, that cannot explain how Jesus is not distinct from God who sits on a throne that is hundreds of miles high. It would seem to me that the reason the New Jerusalem is so large is that in the NHNE the GWT will comfortably sit inside. I just don't have to re-arrange the entire book of Revelation to make a point.

The throne in Matthew 25 has not always been on the earth. This future throne will be based in Jerusalem the throne of David. The goats are not taken before the GWT. They are judged by the Lamb, because Jesus is both the Lamb in Revelation 6, and the Son of man in Matthew 25.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The Son of man is distinct from God sitting on the GWT. That is the doctrine of the Trinity. Not sure why this doctrine suddenly dissappears at the Second Coming?

 

[PinSeeker]

My point about the Luke 19 parable in question is that it literally takes place on the earth...

Sure.

...except some Amils have the entire planet engulfed in flames at the time, thus no habitable earth to return to...

Well, if so, that makes them... bad "Amils." Um, that's a very tongue-in-cheek remark...

Regardless what it looks like to have authority over ten cities, is not the point.

Right, well, it's not about hard numbers, and it's not really about how many cities... or even cities, for that matter...

The timing and length of it is the point. It certainly isn't something involving Revelation 20:11-15 if right after that judgment is concluded it then results in the following.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Right, that's backwards, really...

Once again, regardless what it looks like to have authority over 10 cities, as if it makes sense to give out that authority then take it away the very same day because 1 Corinthians 15:28 has now been fulfilled instead. IOW, Amil makes zero sense, since there is no era of time after Christ has returned in order for some of these things to fit. As if one should maybe take Luke 19:17, for example, to be involving all of eternity rather than a period of time that has a beginning and an ending. That it makes sense that they still have this same authority over 10 cities even after 1 Corinthians 15:28 has been fulfilled.

Right, it's backwards. If there are some who call themselves "Amil," then understanding things in this backward way makes them... wrong, regardless of any label attached.

Let's face it, Amil cuts out a good portion of the Bible per their view of things since they have no era of time post the 2nd coming where these things can fit during.

Well, as I said, maybe some do...

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[PinSeeker]

If this were true, then you deny the Trinity.

Rubbish. I'll... read on here to see how you make such an assertion...

Most of the church accepts that Jesus and God are distinct individuals, thus cannot be sitting on the same throne.

Ah, well, it's not about literally sitting on a throne, it's about being in power and authority. And Jesus said, as I'm sure you remember, that He and the Father are one. You're a very smart person, Timtofly, but taking things ~ some things, not all things, certainly ~ in such a wooden fashion is... well, not good.

The one sitting on the throne is distinct from the Lamb, who is Jesus, who will sit on His own throne on the earth.

This is just way too wooden an understanding, Timtofly. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, which does not mean He is literally on the Father's right, as opposed to His left, or really even that Jesus is very close in proximity to the Father. It means He is seated in the power of God, and the same can be said of His throne. It speaks of the absolute authority He has ~ and really always had, has, and always will have. He set it aside for a time, the 33 years or so that He lived ~ in other words didn't use it for personal gain (Philippians 2) ~ but Jesus always was, is, and always will be God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

The Son of man is distinct from God...

Absolutely... distinct in personhood. But He is one with the Father (and the Holy Spirit), and they with each other and Christ.

...sitting on the GWT...

Hmm, the Great White Throne... See above.

That is the doctrine of the Trinity.

I'm... quite familiar... with it...

Not sure why this doctrine suddenly disappears at the Second Coming?

Well, if it does for some folks, yeah, me either. It always was what it is, it is what it is, and, yes, it always will be what it is. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, which does not mean He is literally on the Father's right, as opposed to His left, or really even that Jesus is very close in proximity to the Father. It means He is seated in the power of God, and the same can be said of His throne. It speaks of the absolute authority He has ~ and really always had, has, and always will have. He set it aside for a time, the 33 years or so that He lived ~ in other words didn't use it for personal gain (Philippians 2) ~ but Jesus always was, is, and always will be God, the second Person of the triune Jehovah.

There goes the Trinity again as being too "wooden a reality" for you.

They are two persons so two thrones.

At the Second Coming, Jesus sits on a throne on the earth, as Jesus is no longer in heaven. Are you saying at the first coming it is too wooden to separate Jesus on earth apart from God?

 

[PinSeeker]

There goes the Trinity again as being too "wooden a reality" for you.

No...

They are two persons...

Yes... Three, with/including the Spirit...

so two thrones.

No... At the very least, the Father is Spirit (John 4:24), so He doesn't have a body, and, so, He's not literally sitting on a throne (no matter the color)

At the Second Coming, Jesus sits on a throne on the earth, as Jesus is no longer in heaven.

It's about His absolute authority. I do agree with you, however, that He will be on earth ~ this will be His eternal reign ~ as opposed to in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father ~ this is... will have been, after His return, His millennial reign.

Are you saying at the first coming it is too wooden to separate Jesus on earth apart from God?

No... Or the second...

But at the second coming, the Father and the Son will not then be, ah, "not one anymore." They always have been, are now, and forever will be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

I don't need to know that which is false when I can read from the Word of God the life we receive when we believe in Him is everlasting, and though our body of flesh is destined to die, we shall NEVER die. Because we are NOT our body of flesh & bone, our body is that which houses who we are, and in Christ we are destined to eternal/never ending life. But clearly you would rather believe those who say believing in eternal life through Christ is not found in Scripture, but from Greek paganism. That's fine you have the right to believe whatever you want. But know this, those who deny the life we have through Christ shall never end, are denying the words of Christ, and that means you do not believe Christ when He tells us our life in Him is eternal/everlasting/and never-ending life through Him, and death of our body of flesh does not change this FACT.

You would do well to stop dwelling on the physical body destined to death and begin to dwell upon the eternal spiritual life we have through Christ that shall NEVER end! Death of our body of flesh does not take us from the spiritual eternal/everlasting life we have in Christ through His Spirit in us.

Yes, and what does it say..
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

[rwb]

Yes, and what does it say..
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

That's because dead flesh has no life at all. But man is more than flesh, they also possess a breath of life which is man's spirit. It is not the flesh of man that returns to God, it is the spirit of man that returns to God. And if our spirit has eternal/everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ within man returns to God a spiritual body, continuing to be a living soul, but without human flesh/form.

We have the promise from Christ that when the Spirit sent from Him is within man, He will be with us until we receive our full inheritance which shall be a body of flesh resurrected immortal & incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. We now have physical life through our breath of life (spirit) and when our body of flesh is dead we shall continue to have breath of life (spirit) through the Spirit of Christ. Our spirit returns with Christ when He comes the second time to give our changed resurrected body of flesh physical life again because our spirit with the Spirit of Christ NEVER dies.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In death it is true the flesh (physical body) knows nothing, but the spirit that has been born again through the Holy Spirit within shall NEVER DIE! The body of flesh of a believer shall live again, but WE SHALL NEVER DIE! That is the spirit, through Christ's Spirit already HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Why do you not believe the words Christ speaks even now?

John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[PinSeeker]

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

There is nothing in this verse particularly or in the Bible that indicates that any person is annihilated or ceases to exist. Two points:

• What you have in bold has implications both for the believer and unbeliever before his/her physical death ~ life "under the sun," as the preacher of Ecclesiastes says several times . But it is talking about the life of the unbeliever at present, who, when they die, the know not life on earth ~ "under the sun," as the preacher of Ecclesiastes says several times. We all know that we will die, and that we will at that point know ~ experience ~ nothing of life under the sun anymore. As the preacher goes on to say, "forever they have (everyone has) no more share in all that is done under the sun."
• And the implication here is that those who have died still know ~ experience ~ something, just no longer... life under the sun.

For the unbeliever, we see the truth of this even now in Jesus's parable in Luke 16, where the rich man ~ who has died ~ is in a place where he... well, where he doesn't want to be... <shudder> ...so much so that he wants those on the other side of the chasm that cannot be crossed to go and warn everyone else to avoid the same fate as he... <shudder>

For believers, they (we) are like the thief crucified on Jesus's right in Luke 23:39-43, who, when he begged Jesus to remember him when He came into His kingdom, Jesus told him he would be... and so he was... in paradise with Christ that day. After they died and gave up their spirit, of course.

And speaking of Luke 23:39-43, regarding the other criminal, the fact that Jesus said nothing to the one crucified on His left should not be interpreted to mean that he would be annihilated, but only that he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise, and therefore would be... <shudder>... somewhere else.

Grace and peace to you, Hobie.

 

[Timtofly]

No...


Yes... Three, with/including the Spirit...


No... At the very least, the Father is Spirit (John 4:24), so He doesn't have a body, and, so, He's not literally sitting on a throne (no matter the color)


It's about His absolute authority. I do agree with you, however, that He will be on earth ~ this will be His eternal reign ~ as opposed to in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father ~ this is... will have been, after His return, His millennial reign.


No... Or the second...

But at the second coming, the Father and the Son will not then be, ah, "not one anymore." They always have been, are now, and forever will be.

Grace and peace to you.

I am sure then, when you do meet God, you will understand. The one time when they did come together was on the one Cross, but two thrones.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am sure then, when you do meet God, you will understand.

Well, I already do…

The one time when they did come together was on the one Cross, but two thrones.

My goodness. You’re an interesting person, Timtofly. I’d like to know how you come into such things.

Again, no actual thrones. But certainly in the Seat… God is one… of power over all creation, both now and eternally.

And neither the Father nor the Spirit were crucified… if that’s even what you’re suggesting, but so it appears, anyway. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, and what does it say..
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

That is true but only from the perspective of the living so the dead there is the dead body. The living cannot see, hear or perceive the souls of the dead.

 

[Hobie]

That's because dead flesh has no life at all. But man is more than flesh, they also possess a breath of life which is man's spirit. It is not the flesh of man that returns to God, it is the spirit of man that returns to God. And if our spirit has eternal/everlasting life through the Spirit of Christ within man returns to God a spiritual body, continuing to be a living soul, but without human flesh/form.

We have the promise from Christ that when the Spirit sent from Him is within man, He will be with us until we receive our full inheritance which shall be a body of flesh resurrected immortal & incorruptible in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. We now have physical life through our breath of life (spirit) and when our body of flesh is dead we shall continue to have breath of life (spirit) through the Spirit of Christ. Our spirit returns with Christ when He comes the second time to give our changed resurrected body of flesh physical life again because our spirit with the Spirit of Christ NEVER dies.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

In death it is true the flesh (physical body) knows nothing, but the spirit that has been born again through the Holy Spirit within shall NEVER DIE! The body of flesh of a believer shall live again, but WE SHALL NEVER DIE! That is the spirit, through Christ's Spirit already HAS ETERNAL LIFE. Why do you not believe the words Christ speaks even now?

John 11:25-26 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Need to put all of what it says..
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We see clearly this is the Second Coming when the saints are resurrected and go with Christ to the heavenly kingdom, the 'redemption of the purchased possession', the living and the dead saints in the grave.

 

[rwb]

Need to put all of what it says..
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We see clearly this is the Second Coming when the saints are resurrected and go with Christ to the heavenly kingdom, the 'redemption of the purchased possession', the living and the dead saints in the grave.

Yes, the dead in Christ shall be physically resurrected from the graves in an hour coming (Jo 5:28-29), when the last trumpet sounds (1Cor 15:51-54) they shall be caught up physically in the air and shall then be with the Lord forevermore. Will we remain in the air with the Lord forevermore? Of course not! What we call 'rapture', Scripture calls being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's because the fire of God's wrath shall be poured out (Rev 20:9; 2Pe 1:7-10) upon this whole earth burning up everything left alive on the earth. Being with the Lord in the air is that we shall not suffer the fiery wrath of God's anger against all evil.

We are now spiritually being built a holy city, Zion from above, heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). After we are physically resurrected and changed why would we go to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven forevermore? After the wrath of God is over and this first heaven and earth have passed away, believers shall come down to the new earth with the Lord as "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:1-4)

Now in this age it is time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is preached unto all the nations of the earth. The Kingdom of God NOW in this age for building is NOT physical, it cannot be seen because it is through the Spirit of Christ within our spirit that we have eternal/everlasting spiritual life. That's how we ascend to heaven a spiritual body when our physical body dies. But when Christ comes again after the spiritual Kingdom of God is completed when the last Gentile to be saved comes into the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Spirit within, we shall be physical again, resurrected immortal & incorruptible, made alive through our spirit that God shall bring with Him fit for everlasting physical life in the physical Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Well, I already do…


My goodness. You’re an interesting person, Timtofly. I’d like to know how you come into such things.

Again, no actual thrones. But certainly in the Seat… God is one… of power over all creation, both now and eternally.

And neither the Father nor the Spirit were crucified… if that’s even what you’re suggesting, but so it appears, anyway. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

Does that mean Jesus is not the Lord God? If you claim Jesus is the Lord God, then yes, the Lord God was on the Cross. God never said humans would understand this concept. They should accept it by faith.

You claim one throne, that to you does not even exist as physical. How can any one see these 2 thrones if you deny their physical reality? They will be seen at the Second Coming is the whole point.

Why do people pit the physical against the spiritual? It is the Holy in opposition to death and unholy. Creation is only whole when the physical and spiritual are united as one. Death and sin prevent that.

 

[PinSeeker]

Does that mean Jesus is not the Lord God?

Absolutely not, of course. I mean, I get the rhetorical nature of the question here, but still…

If you claim Jesus is the Lord God, then yes, the Lord God was on the Cross.

Right, but not the Father (or the Spirit). Now, Jesus was never not one with the Father, and the Father was never not one with Jesus, so in that sense we agree. But Jesus, while on the Cross, cried out to the Father, “Why have You forsaken Me?”… and of course Jesus “gave up His spirit” to the Father when He actually died… the point being that the first and second (and third) Persons of the triune Jehovah were, are, and always will be distinct in personhood, and the first (and third) Person(s) of the triune Jehovah was (were) not on the cross with Jesus.

God never said humans would understand this concept.

Well, He did, actually, but not in and of themselves. You probably remember what Jesus said, that true understanding is of the heart, and what Paul said, that these things are spiritually understood, and that it is God Who puts His Spirit within us… or at least those for whom He has chosen to do so.

They should accept it by faith.

Right, and they do, if it is truly God-given, saving faith (Ephesians 2:8), Hebrews 11:1).

You claim one throne…

Right, one Seat of sovereignty, of power and authority. It is not a literal chair, but a position of absolute preeminence over all creation.

…that to you does not even exist as physicaL…

Ah, yes and no ~ but yeah no, in the sense that it’s not a literal leather ~ or metal or wooden or any other hard material ~ chair. Again, God is preeminent over all His creation and thus created things. Thinking of Him in terms of created things and/or placing Him inside creation should not be done.

How can any one see these 2 thrones if you deny their physical reality?

I certainly do not deny, but affirm and rejoice wholeheartedly in God’s one Seat of absolute sovereignty, of power and authority. As the Lord teaches us to pray, His is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever.

They will be seen at the Second Coming is the whole point.

I mean, I get your point, but… Well… it will be seen, yes. Seen… in the context of finally being fully understood and acknowledged by all, yes.

Why do people pit the physical against the spiritual?

Well, I have a good idea (from Scripture) why… But I do agree that it should not be done…. I would ask, why do people soft-pedal the spiritual, so much so as to make it far inferior to the physical, if not insignificant altogether… even not real? You know as well as I (I think) that Paul says, in Ephesians 6:12, “our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

It is the Holy in opposition to death and unholy.

Well… okay… but I would just say it’s another manifestation of sin…

Creation is only whole when the physical and spiritual are united as one. Death and sin prevent that.

Okay, sure. And it will be whole again, when Christ returns and after the final conflict and the final Judgment. Death and sin will be no more, and Heaven and earth will be one again, everything made new. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

 

[Timtofly]

Absolutely not, of course. I mean, I get the rhetorical nature of the question here, but still…


Right, but not the Father (or the Spirit). Now, Jesus was never not one with the Father, and the Father was never not one with Jesus, so in that sense we agree. But Jesus, while on the Cross, cried out to the Father, “Why have You forsaken Me?”… and of course Jesus “gave up His spirit” to the Father when He actually died… the point being that the first and second (and third) Persons of the triune Jehovah were, are, and always will be distinct in personhood, and the first (and third) Person(s) of the triune Jehovah was (were) not on the cross with Jesus.


Well, He did, actually, but not in and of themselves. You probably remember what Jesus said, that true understanding is of the heart, and what Paul said, that these things are spiritually understood, and that it is God Who puts His Spirit within us… or at least those for whom He has chosen to do so.


Right, and they do, if it is truly God-given, saving faith (Ephesians 2:8), Hebrews 11:1).


Right, one Seat of sovereignty, of power and authority. It is not a literal chair, but a position of absolute preeminence over all creation.


Ah, yes and no ~ but yeah no, in the sense that it’s not a literal leather ~ or metal or wooden or any other hard material ~ chair. Again, God is preeminent over all His creation and thus created things. Thinking of Him in terms of created things and/or placing Him inside creation should not be done.


I certainly do not deny, but affirm and rejoice wholeheartedly in God’s one Seat of absolute sovereignty, of power and authority. As the Lord teaches us to pray, His is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever.


I mean, I get your point, but… Well… it will be seen, yes. Seen… in the context of finally being fully understood and acknowledged by all, yes.


Well, I have a good idea (from Scripture) why… But I do agree that it should not be done…. I would ask, why do people soft-pedal the spiritual, so much so as to make it far inferior to the physical, if not insignificant altogether… even not real? You know as well as I (I think) that Paul says, in Ephesians 6:12, “our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”


Well… okay… but I would just say it’s another manifestation of sin…


Okay, sure. And it will be whole again, when Christ returns and after the final conflict and the final Judgment. Death and sin will be no more, and Heaven and earth will be one again, everything made new. Absolutely.

Grace and peace to you, Timtofly.

Obviously you may or may not distinguish between the Lord and God.

Perhaps read John 1 again?

You make no distinction concerning a throne that is physical but unseen. I make no distinction concerning the Cross. I don't think the Lord forsook the person hood of Christ while on the Cross. However when it comes to person hood, you cannot place Jesus on a separate throne. Was the Lord God the same as the Lamb prior to creation? How do you prove to another human there was a Lamb even before Jesus was born? Yet you point out the Lamb was in God on the same throne, at all times. What makes a physical Cross that was seen any different than what cannot be seen?

 

[Hobie]

Yes, the dead in Christ shall be physically resurrected from the graves in an hour coming (Jo 5:28-29), when the last trumpet sounds (1Cor 15:51-54) they shall be caught up physically in the air and shall then be with the Lord forevermore. Will we remain in the air with the Lord forevermore? Of course not! What we call 'rapture', Scripture calls being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's because the fire of God's wrath shall be poured out (Rev 20:9; 2Pe 1:7-10) upon this whole earth burning up everything left alive on the earth. Being with the Lord in the air is that we shall not suffer the fiery wrath of God's anger against all evil.

We are now spiritually being built a holy city, Zion from above, heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24). After we are physically resurrected and changed why would we go to the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven forevermore? After the wrath of God is over and this first heaven and earth have passed away, believers shall come down to the new earth with the Lord as "the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:1-4)

Now in this age it is time for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as the Gospel is preached unto all the nations of the earth. The Kingdom of God NOW in this age for building is NOT physical, it cannot be seen because it is through the Spirit of Christ within our spirit that we have eternal/everlasting spiritual life. That's how we ascend to heaven a spiritual body when our physical body dies. But when Christ comes again after the spiritual Kingdom of God is completed when the last Gentile to be saved comes into the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Spirit within, we shall be physical again, resurrected immortal & incorruptible, made alive through our spirit that God shall bring with Him fit for everlasting physical life in the physical Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth.

Of course not, we are taken to heaven...that is what scripture says and points to..

Matthew 5:12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.