Whether we fully understand it is not an issue. God has told us that the punishment for sins has been paid. It is only up to us to believe in Him who has told us that and to believe in the truth of what He has told us.
Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Something just occurred to me.
If Jesus hadn't died when he did and why he did, how long would he have lived?
Would he have been translated like Enoch?
What sort of death did we earn in the Fall? Physical. spiritual, or both?
And what was Jesus situation in that regard?
/ cc: @ChristisGod @Hillsage
This is an important question that deserves its own thread. (We have already hijacked the OP here!)
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
Precious friend, in which case just keep faith in God's Word:
"For My Thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My Ways, Saith
The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My Ways Higher
Than your ways, and My Thoughts Than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)
He Knows What He Is Doing, even when we cannot comprehend It, Correct?
Amen.
I suppose I should put forward my foundations of belief and faith.
I am founded on the cross of Christ cleansing and forgiving my sin through His shed blood.
This forgiveness is to enable me to freely love and walk in His life and grace. This life is the life of love a two way giving and receiving.
So once saved in eternity we are saved, from the beginning of time to its end.
But this is the eternal perspective, while I a mere mortal just know the Holy Spirit and Christ working in my heart.
So for me to say OSAS, it means this eternal walking in the Kingdom has no end.
So I use the analogy of marriage as the Lord does with Israel and Himself, where He condemns Israel for adultery with idols
and foreign Gods, for which they are judged and sent into exile.
The Lord does not change. In Ezekiel the Lord declares that a sinner who repents and walks in righteousness will have His sins
forgiven, while a righteous person who turns away will have his righteousness forgotten.
As the Lord does not change or His views on sinful behaviour, you cannot have wilful sinners walking with Jesus.
So if for some OSAS means being touched by Jesus through faith, means eternal communion with the Lord, that needs to
be shown in scripture where this is possible without a righteous walk in love.
I have no problems with the Lords ways, but for those who wish to teach with
the authority of the Most High, they have to demonstrate it.
The Lord sends forth false teachers and lying spirits to miss-lead and show up heresy and evil deeds.
Prophets have died because they listened to such folk rather than staying true to the Lord.
I am called to point out not my judgement but the Lords on those who bring such messages, that they bring a bad
future on themselves. I know some have claimed to be the Lords anointed and speaking against them endangers judgement.
I simple say seeking the will of God is the only way to finding the right path and His blessing.
God bless you
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
He would have lived as long as the life He came to give to us. Physical Immortality, His spirit like, all spirits was eternal to begin with.. and His ‘situation’ is the eternal glorified body of ‘the WORD BECAME FLESH. And He sits at the right hand of the Father. IMO. .
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
It might fit on this forum topic of mine. (reply to your post #743) Question repeated below.
What affect is there on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?
St. SteVen said:
What sort of death did we earn in the Fall? Physical. spiritual, or both?
/
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and that be the problem red fan . WHY WORRY over the WHY . why not rather just embrace the HOW to be saved .
GOD do as HE DO . that is all i need to know . As for the why , WELL HE IS GOD , LET HIM DO as HE SEES FIT TO DO .
Fair enough. I just can't help probing the reasons behind everything. It's how I'm wired.
I like this question because it begins to reveal the story of Adam and Eve.
Adam only knew fellowship with God, not chosen but always there. He and Eve did not know morality, and had no objectivity.
I wonder if they had true self awareness or a conscience at this point.
The warning was simple, eat of the tree of knowledge and you will die.
In the story they were not eternal, as God stops them from eating from the tree of life.
Nothing the Lord said about whether He would lead Adam to the tree of knowledge in the future, just that it would lead to death.
Once Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of knowledge they could decide their own morality and choose their relation to others.
This was rebellion against God, but equally it is part of were love comes from. Objectivity and distance yet choosing to come close
to another to share. So in a sense unless Adam and Eve ate of the tree they would never become like the Lord.
Now the story is very limited but puts forward this dilemma. Man is born in rebellion separate from God and unable to
resolve this independence, defending himself against the challenges of life until finally he dies.
So how far you take this as a historical story or an allegory of our state of being, Adam is less important as an individual but
rather a symbol of where we are today. In this sense the first human who was on earth was in the same place.
If you take the view Jesus gave of John the Baptist who was born filled with the Spirit, being born of the Spirit is a real
step into eternity and realisation of Gods plan. In this context the fall was part of the right of passage.
This is a very hard position to take if you believe all people not in the Kingdom are tortured in hell for all eternity.
It is a simplistic view to hold, and fits with revenge emotions towards one enemies, but the Lord simple says chaff
will be burnt up and forgotten. Why should evil people be remember throughout eternity?
Yet read literally, Gen: 2:16-17 permitted eating of the fruit of the tree of life. Whether Adam ever did so is not recorded. But let's assume he never did. Verse 17 still admonishes that IF he eats of the tree of knowledge he will die, which suggests that if he hadn't taken a bite, he would not die. But St. SteVen's question is, does this mean die physically, die spiritually, or both?
Curious to get your answer to this question.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Indication in Genesis three is that they hadn't. Scripture below.
Genesis 3:22 NIV
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
/
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Another question I have is what might have happened if Adam refused to eat when Eve offered the fruit to him?
/ cc: @WalkInLight
If Adam would have lived forever physically but for his ill-fated bite of fruit (despite never picking any fruit off of the tree of life), it would follow that physical death was the result of his choice and physical death was the curse placed on his progeny. That raises the interesting question of why, after the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ reversed the curse, believers still die physically.
Some scholars read First Thessalonians, probably the earliest NT work, to suggest that the Church in Thessalonica was asking themselves this very question ("Why are our brothers and sisters in the Lord dying off while awaiting Christ's return?") and that 1 Thess. 4:13-18 was Paul's effort at a response. It's an interesting exercise to place this epistle side by side with Mark 9:1, Matt. 16:28 or Luke 9:27 and imagine you are one of Paul's early Thessalonian converts who heard about this same promise of Jesus. We've got lots of competing interpretations of what Jesus meant now, but how would you have interpreted it then? Wouldn't it have sparked precisiely the same question in your mind that Paul seems to be addressing?
Some scholars read First Thessalonians, probably the earliest NT work, to suggest that the Church in Thessalonica was asking themselves this very question ("Why are our brothers and sisters in the Lord dying off while awaiting Christ's return?") and that 1 Thess. 4:13-18 was Paul's effort at a response. It's an interesting exercise to place this epistle side by side with Mark 9:1, Matt. 16:28 or Luke 9:27 and imagine you are one of Paul's early Thessalonian converts who heard about this same promise of Jesus. We've got lots of competing interpretations of what Jesus meant now, but how would you have interpreted it then? Wouldn't it have sparked precisiely the same question in your mind that Paul seems to be addressing?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
This is why I think the death consequence was spiritual, not physical.
If so, this makes it even LESS likely that Adam understood the consequence of eating thereof.
How would he understand such a thing?
I think the consequences were immediate. What does the narrative show?
Two people completely out of their minds.
I love the unanswered question in Genesis three.
God asked Adam, "Who told you that you were naked?"
Who indeed. Humankind had given the enemy entrance to their minds.
\
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Lets put 100 people in a room
All 100 are guilty of crimes, and all have been given the death penalty.
What does God do.
1. Forgive them all?
2. Let them all suffer their just punishment?
3. Forgive some, but not others. And if he does this, who does he forgive and who does he not? And for what reason does he forgive some and not others.
As for your last question. it is not just, It is loving.
Justice demands a payment, Love found a way where justice could not.
I heard an example once that touched me,
A judge was trying his son for committing rape and murder, the judge gave him the death penalty as required by law. Them the father stood up took his robe off, and told the officer to let his son go, he would die in his place.
was it fair the father did that? No
but he did because he loved his son
Adam died spiritually. His relationship with God was broken by rebellion. He chose death rather than life through his action.
Adam died physically, in the sense without eating from the tree of life his body would wear out and die.
We assume death physically means die within a short period of time. For Adam this was the difference between eternity and mortality.
So Adam did die.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
You believe in the curse was spiritual death????? I've said this a hundred times and you've never said anything contrary, that i remember; "Adam and Eve did not die spiritually!" In fact; they actually gave access to another spirit, when they opened the door of temptation to another spirit which preached another gospel to them and they began thinking like the devil.
I know I've shared bits and pieces along with chunks occasionally, with you but never heard you refute anything I said. So let me just give you my whole study on that one verse.
GEN 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it - dying thou dost die.'
dying is the process, dead is the outcome. Adam and Eve listened to another 'gospel' in the garden from and evil angel from heaven
GAL 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
The angel from Heaven Adam listened to, was; "the SERPENT....or SATAN and the DEVIL"
THE DAY
The Hebrew word "DAY" is sometimes defined by 'an associated term' according to Strong's.
3117 yowm: a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), [often used adverbaly]
And in 'Genesis one' the 'associated term' definition of a chapter 1 creation "day", was a 24 hour "evening and morning" time framed days.
But in the case of Adam/Eve being given the 'death sentence for sin' in chapter 2:17, the 'associated term' definition applies. Because concerning the time frame of 'the day' in which they would 'die' was in reference to 'the day' before the creation of 'earth' 'heavens' and 'rain/the flood' in 2:4,5.
GEN 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
In this verse above it speaks of 'in the day' God made "the heavens and the earth". If you go back to chapter one, 'the heavens' were created on 'the day' before 'the earth'. So that's two days events in Genesis 1.
So the chapter 2 'day' of dying from the curse of sin was going to happen to Adam/Eve, or anyone else, in the time-framed 'day' before the flood which was 1000 years later. All who died in 'the day/age' before the flood, or since, died short of "a 1000 years which is as 'a day' unto the Lord" 2Pe 3:8). Even Methuselah only made it to 960 before he died.
Therefore 'the day' of the curse of sin/death was like 'THE DAY OF THE LOCOMOTIVE' by definition. Not really 'a day' at all as we commonly think, but more of 'an age'.
ROM 8:11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.
ROM 8:11 Greek Interlinear: But, if, the, spirit, of the (one), having raised, of the, Jesus, from, (the) dead, dwells, in, you, the (one), having raised, from, (the) dead, Christ Jesus, will quicken, also, the, mortal, bodies, of you, through, the, indwelling, of him, spirit, in, you.
If the spirit (of Christ) of the one raised up (Jesus body), dwells in you, he that raised up Jesus from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies through his Christ spirit that dwelleth in you.
Other OT verses saying the word OLAM or "day" when it is obviously not some 24 hour period of time
PSA 137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in THE DAY OF JERUSALEM;
PRO 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for THE DAY OF EVIL.
ECC 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in THE DAY OF ADVERSITY
Ezekiel 22:24 Son of man, say unto her, Thou art the land that is not cleansed, nor rained upon in THE DAY OF INDIGNATION.
HEB 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in THE DAY of TEMPTATION IN THE WILDERNESS
I know this 'DAY' definition thing is deep, and hard for many to grasp, but I've never found a easy way for anyone to understand.
/St. Steven
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I know it is controversial. So, I wasn't interesting in debating it as if there is only ONE right answer.
Are you claiming that we are NOT spiritually dead due to the Fall? (Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:1)
BTW: This is how to do a footnote tag to a member.
/ @Hillsage
You don't actually need the "/".
That is something I do on my posts to add space at the bottom before my signature line.
But if you use it, you need a space after it.
And you have to have the "@" as well before the username. (with no additional space) @St. SteVen
AND you have to use the pull-down menu that appears as you begin
typing a username to choose the link that will alert the member.
Start typing their username and it will appear in the list of similar user names.
Choose the correct username, like this.
@Hillsage
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Adam never died spiritually He walked like ENOCH walked perfectly, but Adam did so, only after committing that one sin. He walked 970 years.
Enoch walked perfectly never having lived in the Garden and therefore God took him.
Nobody lost the chance to remain in "the presence of the Lord". Not even the murderer Cain....according to SCRIPTURE.
GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
I don't care how many lies have been told by false teachers over the centuries. Telling us that Adam and Eve lost the presence of the Lord because of their sin. So IF that were true, how did Cain still have it ? And after Cain's mistake, it is no wonder that he taught his firstborn the evil of sin which he should have learned from his father ADAM. But at least Cain's firstborn ENOCH listened and then obeyed.
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