Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming

[WPM]

John saw heaven, but mostly he was given visions of the earthly events. " And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
is a vision ON EARTH. What did you think, he saw spirit heads without bodies floating around in heaven?

Never read anything by him.

Nowhere, I said the Temple would be a Memorial Temple, a place for instruction and worship of our KING. Don't think He deserves to be in a beautiful Temple where nations from all over the earth can visit

Again, no Scripture to support your claims. Just more avoidance. Ok, where does Scripture mention "a Memorial Temple." Where is it in Rev 20 - your only "proof"-text.

Thrones

Thrones are always located within the heavenly domain prior to the new heavens and new earth.

Thrones are mentioned 47 times in Revelation.

There are only 3 references to the throne of God being on earth. They all relate to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:5, 22:1, 3) after the millennial is completed. Of the rest: every mention of “throne” or “thrones” in Revelation is in heaven, apart from 3 pertaining to the kingdom of darkness. One refers to Satan’s throne in Revelation 2:13; the other two refer to the beast’s throne in Revelation 13:2; 16:10.

Take particular note of the fact that we are looking at a heavenly scene. We are looking at the souls of God’s people who are currently in heaven after the resurrection of Christ (the first resurrection).

Revelation 20 shows the victory, blessing and authority the dead in Christ enjoyed in heaven after Christ’s victory over death.

Souls

The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is definitely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.

These are believers that have been killed in this life for the faith.

This same group is seen elsewhere in Revelation.

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, closely paralleling the scene portrayed in Revelation 20, “I saw under the altar the souls (tas psychas) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) confirms, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here these disembodied saints are described as resting before “the altar” in heaven “for a little season” until the arrival of their “fellowservants” and “brethren” that are still being persecuted and “dwell on the earth.” This verifies the fact that this group is speaking of the disembodied saints and that they are located in heaven. Those who would suggest that “the souls” outlined in Revelation 20:4 are anything other than the same heavenly saints described in Revelation 6:9-10 are sadly mistaken. The Premillennial argument that they are glorified believers reigning over the wicked on earth during a supposed future post-Second Advent millennium is surely unsound?

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (future article) on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfilment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

John sees those that have been saved in heaven and explains how they continue in their kingly/priestly position. Here we see the two spiritual offices that believers (dead or alive) exercise and enjoy “in Christ.” They are kings and priests. The humble servant-hood of the true believer and his self-sacrificing walk is connected to his priestly position, whereas his reigning in spiritual power and authority is related to his kingly office.

Revelation 15:1-3 correspondingly parallels, speaking of the intra-Advent period, “I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them (the souls) that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass.”

 

[WPM]

He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.
Yes, then and now He is there. BUT HE WILL RETURN. You seem to want to discount all the details of His return, even Covenant Theology.
What about the unfulfilled Davidic Covenant?

The Lord swore to David a sure oath
from which he will not turn back:
“One of the sons of your body
I will set on your throne. Psalm 132:11 ( Acts 2:30)

David's throne is not in heaven!

8 May he have dominion from sea to sea,
and from the River to the ends of the earth!
Psalm 72:8

2 Samuel 7:16 says that
David’s heir (Jesus), would sit on the throne of Israel ages.

Absolutely!

He said He would, He made a promise. And btw, that is what the Israelites expected the upon His First Coming, ti take the throne as King and defeat His foes - that is why they were baffled. Even the disciples thought that, until they saw him resurrected.

I take most of Eschatology literally. You are the one with the symbolic mumbo jumbo and the one who is rejecting scripture that should be dis earned literally.

No you do not.

Christ is Israel's king - true Israel, not apostate Christ rejecting Israel. He is reigning on David's throne since the resurrection as king, Lord and Redeemer.

It clearly states that. Psalms 132:12 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

What you need to see is that Peter is referring to this in Acts 2:29-36, saying: “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ” (Acts 2:25-31).

The whole context here is expressly speaking about the One that would assume David's throne. It is speaking about the only One that could gloriously take it. Christ was that man. He was of course the promised offspring of David (the fruit of his loins). None else would take such a final place of authority. Christ was indeed the fulfilment of the Davidic promise. He now reigns supreme.

Christ already came physically and revealed the kingdom of God to Israel. The problem was, it just wasn't what they expected. The fact is the Messianic kingdom is here. Messiah has come. The kingdom is found everywhere Christ reigns in sovereign control. The kingdom is here on this earth now in the hearts of God's people (the Israel of God).

Peter shows us that Psalm 110:1 is currently being fulfilled since Christ destroyed the power of the grave, and ascended to the right hand of majesty on high. No objective Bible student could fail to see the focus and message of this narrative. This reading is concentrated upon the victory of the resurrection of Christ nearly 2,000 years ago and the resulting current kingly Messianic reign of Christ at “the right hand of God exalted” in heaven. It confirms that Israel’s Messiah now sits enthroned upon David’s throne, and locates the timing of His assumption of the same to after “the resurrection of Christ.” As Messiah, Christ fulfilled every human demand of Him, thus rightfully assuming the kingship of Israel through His impeccable life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

 

[WPM]

I take most of Eschatology literally. You are the one with the symbolic mumbo jumbo and the one who is rejecting scripture that should be dis earned literally.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Do you believe Satan literally has 7 heads and 7 necks?
5. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
6. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
7. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
8. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
9. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
10. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
11. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
12. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
13. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
14. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[Timtofly]

The beast and false prophet precede Satan to the lake of fire. That does not suggest a notable space of time. It definitely does not indicate 1000 years of time in between their sentencing.

Your interpretation does not, but the words John wrote does state that the beast and FP were placed in the LOF 1,000 plus years before Satan.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are."

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

 

[WPM]

Your interpretation does not, but the words John wrote does state that the beast and FP were placed in the LOF 1,000 plus years before Satan.

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are."

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

Not so! Do you even read what people write?

The end of Satan's little season ushers in the second coming. It is the final parallel. Each parallel (of seven) has a different focus. Rev 20 relates to the fate of Satan since the first resurrection of Jesus and the liberation of the dead in Christ from Hades to heaven to reign with Christ. Rev 17-19 sees the downfall of the beast and the false prophet.

 

[Timtofly]

Not so! Do you even read what people write?

The end of Satan's little season ushers in the second coming. It is the final parallel. Each parallel (of seven) has a different focus. Rev 20 relates to the fate of Satan since the first resurrection of Jesus and the liberation of the dead in Christ from Hades to heaven to reign with Christ. Rev 17-19 sees the downfall of the beast and the false prophet.

According to you, but not according to John and what he wrote.

They all three appear at Armageddon.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

 

[WPM]

According to you, but not according to John and what he wrote.

They all three appear at Armageddon.

"And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Who said otherwise?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@WPM
Thank you for your thread and posts, it helped me to delve deeper into the theology of the Millennial Kingdom. I now have even a better understanding of it.

JESUS IS COMING SOON!

 

[WPM]

@WPM
Thank you for your thread and posts, it helped me to delve deeper into the theology of the Millennial Kingdom. I now have even a better understanding of it.

JESUS IS COMING SOON!

You are welcome.

I agree: He is coming soon. Thankfully, this will spell the end of sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions.

 

[rwb]

I cannot interact with your outside sources so I have no interest reading this. When a poster does this they normally admit they have no rebuttal to what is before them.

Call me daffy but I wonder, why would the Old Covenant prophets write of a Messiah coming again? Would not every prophetic utterance concerning him NOT be of a Messiah to come, when all that is written of Him shall be fulfilled? It seems illogical to me that the prophets would prophesy of Messiah coming again since they did not live, and therefore would not know of His first coming?

 

[rwb]

John saw heaven, but mostly he was given visions of the earthly events. " And I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
is a vision ON EARTH. What did you think, he saw spirit heads without bodies floating around in heaven?

John didn't need to see the souls of those beheaded through physical sight. John was given to KNOW there is life, continuing to exist living souls who are a spiritual body of believers in heaven after physical death. Because before they were martyred for their faith they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Since no human lives for ONE thousand literal years, it becomes obvious that "a" thousand years is symbolic of time in which they lived and reigned with Christ on earth before they died. And since they died in faith, they are still spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ within. John is showing us what becomes of the faithful saints who live and die in Christ.

Saw - translated from the Greek word eido in Rev 20:4 means John was given to understand, have knowledge of, or perceive there is still life after death. By knowing this we understand why Christ repeatedly says that whoever believes in Him shall never die, because the spiritual life we have through His Spirit in us shall be with us until we receive our resurrected body changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time given this earth shall be no longer.

 

[rwb]

@WPM

After Jesus returns . . .

Zechariah 14:16-19 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These are nations, on the earth, that might not obey God's command, in plainly stated Scripture.

They are alive, on the earth, after Jesus returns, with the possibility of disobedience, indicating they are not incorruptible.

Much love!

How did those left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem survive the fire of God's wrath that shall come down out of heaven when Christ returns and every living thing on this earth shall be burned up?

Revelation 20:8-9 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[rwb]

You assume so much!! Don't mistake my focus on a single point as though I don't know more than that. But I'm certainly seeing a pattern of deflection here.

This passage, by itself, as written, shows that there are potential sinners on the earth AFTER Jesus returns. Plain. Simple. And you deflect from this, "Show me a comparison", why? Just read the passage, and accept what it says.

Much love!

Please explain who they are and where they come from, that they are able to survive the wrath of God by fire that shall come down upon the whole earth sparing nothing alive?????

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Because before they were martyred for their faith they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Since no human lives for ONE thousand literal years, it becomes obvious that "a" thousand years is symbolic of time in which they lived and reigned with Christ on earth before they died. And since they died in faith, they are still spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ within.

You have it backwards. Read it the order that is appears. There is really no separation in order of events from chapter 19 to 20. Chapters and verses did not exist in the original manuscripts. In some cases, I think the Scribes improperly divided chapters. So it is always good to review the previous chapter ( or at least a few paragraphs leading into the next).
We see a conclusion of the Great Tribulation period, judgments and such in the beginning of Rev. 20. I see the beheaded souls happening right now as we speak and throughout the GT, by Islamic terrorists. That is their modus operandi.
So then before the Rapture, there are thousands, maybe millions throughout history who have been martyred this way and they are resurrected and then live with Christ for 1000 years.
Order: Beheaded efore and during the GT _ then raptured _ then live in MK with Christ.

 

[WPM]

Call me daffy but I wonder, why would the Old Covenant prophets write of a Messiah coming again? Would not every prophetic utterance concerning him NOT be of a Messiah to come, when all that is written of Him shall be fulfilled? It seems illogical to me that the prophets would prophesy of Messiah coming again since they did not live, and therefore would not know of His first coming?

Are you asking how they would know of a coming Messiah?

 

[WPM]

You have it backwards. Read it the order that is appears. There is really no separation in order of events from chapter 19 to 20. Chapters and verses did not exist in the original manuscripts. In some cases, I think the Scribes improperly divided chapters. So it is always good to review the previous chapter ( or at least a few paragraphs leading into the next).
We see a conclusion of the Great Tribulation period, judgments and such in the beginning of Rev. 20. I see the beheaded souls happening right now as we speak and throughout the GT, by Islamic terrorists. That is their modus operandi.
So then before the Rapture, there are thousands, maybe millions throughout history who have been martyred this way and they are resurrected and then live with Christ for 1000 years.
Order: Beheaded efore and during the GT _ then raptured _ then live in MK with Christ.

I have showed you that Rev 19 depicts the end. It sees the rescue of all the elect (Rev 19:9) and the destruction of all the wicked (Rev 19:17-18, 21), as every second coming passage does. Rev 20 starts the last of 7 parallels. It goes back to Christ conquering sin, Satan, death and Hades.

 

[marks]

How did those left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem survive the fire of God's wrath that shall come down out of heaven when Christ returns and every living thing on this earth shall be burned up?

That's a great question, and I encourage you to seek out the answer. After all, these various passages I've been posting are very clear in what they say.

Much love!

 

[Davidpt]

How did those left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem survive the fire of God's wrath that shall come down out of heaven when Christ returns and every living thing on this earth shall be burned up?

Revelation 20:8-9 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

One way to put this debate to rest is to convincingly show with Zechariah 14 itself, as to how verses 16-19 are meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after. How verses 16-19 are meaning before verse 12 is fulfilled rather than after? And they shall go up from year to year, as to how they can do that in a single day or even a single year? And why only the NT is holy writ but the OT isn't as well?

 

[Davidpt]

Call me daffy but I wonder, why would the Old Covenant prophets write of a Messiah coming again? Would not every prophetic utterance concerning him NOT be of a Messiah to come, when all that is written of Him shall be fulfilled? It seems illogical to me that the prophets would prophesy of Messiah coming again since they did not live, and therefore would not know of His first coming?

You apparently don't get how some things work. What was hidden in the OT at the time is revealed in the NT. What is one thing that is revealed in the NT? That there are two comings of Christ. Therefore, it is unreasonable to think that nothing recorded in the OT is involving the 2nd coming and what all happens because of and after that. The problem arises when one conflates in the OT events pertaining to the the 2nd coming with that of events pertaining to the first coming, which Amils oftentimes do. And in some cases, the same can be said about Premils as well.

 

[WPM]

That's a great question, and I encourage you to seek out the answer. After all, these various passages I've been posting are very clear in what they say.

Much love!

That is called avoidance. You believe this. He doesn't. It is up to you to explain just another (of many) contradiction that attend Premil.