What other Scriptures corroborate your opinion of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future resurrection days separated by a literal 1000 years+?
Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming
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What other Scriptures corroborate your opinion of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct future resurrection days separated by a literal 1000 years+?
You are just admitting what the rest of us already know: Premil is a non-corroborative doctrine. It enjoys zero support elsewhere in Scripture. Your interpretation of Revelation 20 is unbiblical and contradicts numerous climactic Scripture.
You interpret every Scripture through the lens of your mistaken view of Revelation 20. That is your misguided obsession. Amils prefers what Paul the apostle in their hermeneutics: "what saith the Scripture?" (Romans 4:3). They interpret the highly-debated Rev 20 by the rest of Scripture. If you do that you will see that we are there now.
Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.
Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).
Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.
Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.
Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).
There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).
Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.
There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).
Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).
The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).
1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.
This is a water-tight argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”
You keep throwing out these evasive sweeping personal statements without any type of biblical support. That is because you're just voicing your own opinions. Where is your evidence? I just gave you clear and compelling other Scripture that supports the Amil view of Rev 20. Where is yours?
You've given long and convoluted arguments how we shouldn't believe clearly stated Scripture. Truth tends to be simple, is what I've found.
I've quoted to you the Scripture, and you do not accept what it says. You keep calling it opinion, however, I'm quoting God Himself. No changes, just quoting His Word.
Your view is that it doesn't mean what the words say.
Much love!
After Jesus returns . . .
Zechariah 14:16-19 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Nations, on the earth, that might not obey God's command.
Plainly stated Scripture.
Much love!
Zechariah 14:16-19 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Nations, on the earth, that might not obey God's command.
Plainly stated Scripture.
Much love!
Whenever I see someone who posts references, but not the passage itself, I'm always curious why.
I'm going to pick a few and see if they actually say what is claimed.
There is a climactic conflagration . . . Romans 8:18-23,
Romans 8:18-23 KJV
18) For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
That would be a no, there is no "climactic conflagration" in this passage.
Let's try another.
There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ . . . Acts 10:42,
Acts 10:42 KJV
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
This passage likewise does not make the statement that is claimed.
One more?
The age to come possesses no mortals. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 KJV
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Again, this does not make the claimed statement.
How many are just like that?
Much love!
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Ok!!!
Yes it does! The reference relating to those who desire deliverance from the present condition of “the bondage of corruption” is not restricted to the redeemed of God alone (those who “have the firstfruits of the Spirit”). The hope is more comprehensive. This passage tells us that the whole of creation is yearning for this monumental change. This only goes to show that all creation doesn’t simply experience the reality and awful cost of the Fall, but that it yearns for relief from its corrosive clutches through its continuation.
When, then, will this perpetual groaning and travailing of all “creation” in pain, for the expressed reason of the continued existence of the awful “bondage of corruption” within “the creature,” actually be finally assuaged?
This approaching change occurs at the one final future coming of Christ – the day of redemption. It is only then that the “sons of God” are finally glorified, and therefore totally and eternally delivered from this continuing “bondage of corruption” into the “glorious liberty of the children of God.” Then, all redeemed creation will be transformed from corruption to incorruption. The time of the “redemption of our body” is the time that sees creation finally and eternally delivered from bondage. This is glorification. This is shown in the whole thrust and context of the introductory verses to this reference, where Paul was talking about man’s great deliverance. He is talking about the saints being “glorified” (v 17) at His return and describing it as “the glory which shall be revealed in us” (v 18).
Yes it does! Peter testifies in Acts 10:42 to the fact that everyone will stand before the great Judge – Christ – and that “he (Christ) commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”
Every man woman and child will therefore stand before the great Judge of all judges. Notwithstanding, whilst, most Bible students accept this fact, the Premillennialist wrongly tries to argue that the wicked and the righteous will stand before God on two distinct Judgment Days, at two distinct times, separated by over a thousand years, despite there being not one verse in Scripture to support such a notion. This includes their beloved Revelation 20 that only records one judgment of “the dead” that occurs immediately after Gog and Magog comes against the saints and, like elsewhere in Scripture, coincides with the destruction of the wicked and this world and the glorious Second Advent.
2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
His kingdom arrives when Jesus arrives. That is the day when the mankind (living and dead) are judged. That is indeed “his appearing.”
Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) epiphaneia (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.
Yes it does! Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”
I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
How is this correct? They still have Sin Nature?
When was Eve a sinner in a previous life where she referred back to that sin nature to allow Satan to decieve her?
Does no one understand that Satan can deceive a perfect and normal son of God who had no prior knowledge of sin and death, much less a sin nature?
Death is still around, because disobedience to a law results in death. Just being deceived by Satan can result in being consumed by fire, even if you do nothing morally wrong. That is what the Scripture explicitly states.
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
There is literally nothing in this verse that states they disobeyed one law.
There is no verse in Revelation 20 that states death is abolished at the Second Coming. I am not sure why the OP poster even posts about Revelation 20? There is literally nothing in Revelation 20 that backs up his argument, nor all the strawman questions he asks.
Where in Revelation 20 is the Second Coming even mentioned? Was Adam a sinner having a sin nature prior to disobeying God? Is being devoured by fire the same thing as physically dying? Perhaps being devoured by fire is not literal in this chapter? People complain Revelation is too symbolic, no? Is "devoured by fire" just a figure of speech that they understood, surrounding the camp of the saints was not in their best interest, and they all turned around and went back home? If there is no death allowed in the chapter, because death was abolished, how is Death emptied out later and tossed into the LOF? Is even the GWT Judgment prior to the Second Coming?
In the explicit accout of Adam disobeying God, death was Adam's enemy even before sin was his enemy. God told Adam that the moment he ate, he would die. That was the enemy: death, not God, nor even disobedience. As no one had disobeyed God on the earth, and nothing had died. Sin was the result of the disobedience after death had already happened.
It is also pointless to argue with a person who has made up their mind Revelation 20 has no corroboration in Scripture.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Revelation is not chronological. Events are shown at different vantage points. They are written one after another but many things are happening simultaneously, they overlap.
In Rev. 7:9 we see a multitude ( that no one could number), who just arrived in Heaven - who come out if the Great Tribulation. Then in Rev. 11:15 the seventh trumpet sounds ( which I believe is the last)..Many things happen at this time: Kingdoms of the world becomes the Lords, Heaven is open, rewards are given, judgment, praise, and the Bowls of wrath are released.
The sacrificial system described in Ezekiel cannot be for the forgiveness of sins, for Christ has accomplished that once and for all (Hebrews 10:1–4, 11–14).
In this interpretive approach, the sacrifices are seen as memorials of Christ’s death or as rites for the ceremonial cleansing of the temple, but not as a means to forgive sins.
No, Christ died for our sins.
Where do you put Ezekiel's Temple? It clearly was not the 2nd Temple (Herod's), the dimensions show it is 18 times larger. It is too large to fit on the current Temple mount even with the Mosque destroyed. It will be north of that area, since rhe topography will somewhat change - with Jesus splitting the mountain at his return.
This is a Memorial Temple used for teaching of knowledge of God.
It's differences from previous temples:
1. No wall that excludes Gentiles (Eph. 2:14)
2. No Court of Women
(Gal. 3:28)
3. No Laver (Ezek. 36:24-27 & Jn. 15:3)
4. No Table of Showbread
(Micah 5:4 & Jn 6:35)
5. No Lampstand (Is. 49:6 &
Jn. 8:12)
6. No Golden Altar of Incense
(Zech. 8:20-23 & Jn. 14:6)
7. No Veil ( Is. 25:6-8)
8. No Ark of the Covenant
( Jer. 3:16 & Jn. 10:30-33)
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.
He kills only those who do not believe in Him. How is He supposed to rule nations if He killed everyone?
Verse 20 identifies thogse He kills, those who had the mark of the Beast and worshipped him.
" ... those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him."
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
This is your man made opinion. Recap is not stated nor implied any where in the entire book of Revelation.
Your interpretation of the entire book of Revelation is through the lense of a faulty opinion called recapitulation.
Where is Satan mentioned as being permanently destroyed (your climactic all inclusive end to all that is wicked) in Revelation 19? Perhaps you have a faulty view of Revelation 19? Are you saying that Satan does not even show up at the battle of Armageddon? Did he abandon the beast and the FP at the last moment, and disappeared out of John's sight somewhere?
So all flesh is destroyed, even those white horses and their riders following Jesus, they were all destroyed?
Seems those horses and riders would be able to live on the earth during the Millennium, except for your faulty recap you placed on Scripture to limit God to your standards.
If they were not destroyed, where is your corroboration that they all returned to heaven so they could be in the New Jerusalem when it descends? Seems you are just making stuff up as you go. You have them all there and then everything vanishes and nothing is left. You don't even have Jesus ever on the earth at all. Jesus is not in heaven nor on the earth. Is this eternity even before the battle of Armageddon, or is there not even a battle period?
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Where did they follow Jesus, if Jesus never went any where? You claim this is where heaven and earth pass away. Is that after or prior to going somewhere? Were those slain never at the GWT Judgment but instantly in the LOF when everything vanished out of sight? When did they have time to go anywhere other than the LOF with the beast and the FP?
Are you not yourself inserting a lot of stuff into Revelation 19 that is not explicitly written?
Why is this horse procession even the Second Coming, when no other Scripture on the Second Coming corroborates there are horses involved? Should you not live up to your own standard of biblical interpretation with other Scripture?
I am not limited by the law of interpretation that things have to be mentioned more than once. There is also the principle of Scriptural precedent of first mention. Why would Revelation not have first mentions that set a Scriptural precedent? This is the book that describes a brand new creation, although obviously you think other places do describe the next creation.
Revelation is the book that states Satan is the 8th world leader after Nebuchadnezzer of Babylon. No other Scripture coroborates that Satan is the 8th kingdom. Yet that is mentioned first in Revelation. Revelation is the first book to mention 3 woes that will happen in the future. There is no other book that corroborates 3 woes.
Johann
Well-Known Member
20 May Is Revelation 20 the Only Text for Premillennialism?
by Michael Vlach, PhD
Published May 20, 2021
By Michael Vlach, PhD
In his defense of amillennialism against premillennialism, Robert B. Strimple makes mention of “one-text premillennialists.” By this he means premillennialists who allegedly rely solely on Revelation 20:1–10 for their view that there will be an earthly kingdom of Christ after the second coming of Jesus.1
In my own dealings with the millennial issue, I find that there is a common perception held by amillennialists and postmillennialists that premillennialism itself is based solely on Revelation 20. And supposedly without this passage premillennialism would have no support.
This article will address the perception that premillennialism is a one passage viewpoint. While there certainly may be some “one-text premillennialists” it is not true that premillennialism is based only on Revelation 20. Although Revelation 20 is the only passage in the Bible that explicitly mentions “one thousand years,” many premillennialists believe there are other passages that are consistent with the idea of an intermediate kingdom after the present age but before the eternal state.
In a nutshell, our reasoning goes like this: in addition to Revelation 20, several Old Testament passages predict an era on this earth that is far better than the current age we live in but not yet as perfect as the coming final eternal state. Thus, there is a necessity of an intermediate kingdom after the second coming of Jesus but before the eternal state. As Wayne Grudem puts it: “Several Old Testament passages seem to fit neither in the present age nor in the eternal state. These passages indicate some future stage in the history of redemption which is far greater than the present church age but which still does not see the removal of all sin and rebellion and death from the earth.”2
First Example: Isaiah 65
One such passage which fits neither in the present age nor in the eternal state is Isaiah 65. In particular Isaiah 65:20 states: “No more shall there be in it an infant that lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.”
The issue at hand in this verse, which is discussing conditions associated with the new heavens and new earth, is longevity of life. Whenever this prophecy is fulfilled people will be living so long that if they die at age 100 something must be wrong since it is expected that people will live much longer than that. In fact, it will be assumed that a person dying at the age of 100 must have done something wrong. They must be “accursed.” So notice two important things here with Isaiah 65:20 – an increased longevity of life and the presence of sin which brings curses and death.
Now we must ask the question, “When will these conditions described in Isaiah 65:20 take place? Can it be during our present age?” The answer is clearly, no. We live in a day where people live between seventy and eighty years on average (see Psalm 90:10). If a person dies today at age one hundred years old we say he lived a long life, not a short one. So will Isaiah 65:20 be fulfilled in the coming eternal state? The answer again must be, no. In the eternal state there is no longer any sin, death, or curse (Revelation 21:4; 22:3), so no one will be dying.
Therefore, Isaiah 65:20 must be fulfilled in an era that is different from our current period yet distinct from the eternal state. This means there must be an intermediate kingdom or what we call a millennium.
Compare the three eras:
Present Age: Lifespans of seventy to eighty years.
Millennial Kingdom: Lifespans well beyond seventy to eighty years but sin, death, and curses exist.
Eternal State: People live forever with no presence of sin, death, or curse.
This understanding of Isaiah 65 is not recent. Christians of the Second Century viewed this passage as support for premillennialism. Martin Erdman points out that Isaiah 65:20–25 formed “the scriptural basis, besides Revelation 20:1–10, on which Asiatic millennialism built its chiliastic doctrine.”3 This was true for Justin Martyr. In reference to Isaiah 65 Justin said, “For Isaiah spoke thus concerning this period of a thousand years.”4 Erdman points out that Justin’s reference to Old Testament prophets “indicates his reliance on the Old Testament as the primary source of his chiliasm. He did not shy away from utilizing different passages from the Hebrew Bible to strengthen his argument in favor of a literal millennium.”5 Likewise, the author of the Epistle of Barnabas was a premillennialist, and according to Erdman, “his chiliastic views are partially based on verses from the Old Testament.”6
Second Example: Zechariah 14
Zechariah 14:5–17 also supports premillennialism. Verse 9 states that the “LORD will be King over all the earth” after His feet stand on the Mount of Olives (v. 4), but there is still disobedience and rebellion on the part of some nations. It is predicted that Egypt and other nations will be punished with drought when they do not obey the Lord as they should (vv. 18–19). Grudem states the issue well: “Here again the description [Zechariah 14:5–17] does not fit the present age, for the Lord is King over all the earth in this situation. But it does not fit the eternal state either, because of the disobedience and rebellion against the Lord that is clearly present.7
According to premillennialists, these conditions of Zechariah 14 can only occur in an intermediate kingdom between the present age and the eternal state. While people from all nations are being saved in the church age, the nations themselves do not obey our Lord (see Psalm 2). In fact, they persecute those who belong to the Lord. In the millennial kingdom Jesus will rule the nations while He is physically present on earth. The nations will obey and submit to His rule, but as Zechariah 14 points out, whenever a nation does not act as they should there is punishment. On the other hand, in the eternal state there will be absolutely no disobedience on the part of the nations. The picture of the nations in the eternal state is only positive. The kings of the nations bring their contributions to the New Jerusalem (see Revelation 21:24) and the leaves of the tree of life are said to be for the healing of the nations (see Revelation 22:2).
To compare:
Present Age: Jesus is in heaven and the nations do not yet submit to Jesus as King.
Millennial Kingdom: Jesus rules the nations on earth and punishes those nations that do not act as they should.
Eternal State: The nations act exactly as they should with no need of punishment.
Conclusion
So is premillennialism a “one-passage” viewpoint as some think? Not at all. The idea of an earthly kingdom that comes after Jesus’ return, but before the eternal state, is taught in several Old Testament passages and Revelation 20. In the course of progressive revelation, Revelation 20 reveals to us how long this intermediate kingdom will be (“one thousand years”) but it is not the first and only reference to such an era.
When someone says to me, “You only have one passage, Revelation 20, which allegedly teaches a millennium,” I say, “That’s not true. Revelation 20 tells me how long Christ’s intermediate earthly kingdom will be – one thousand years – but other passages teach the idea of an intermediate kingdom.”
Premillennialism is a doctrine found in both the Old and New Testaments.9
END NOTES
1 Robert B. Strimple, “Amillennialism,” Three Views on the Millennium and Beyond, ed. Darrell L. Bock (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999), 118. Strimple was mostly referring to George Ladd. We are not claiming that Strimple is saying all premillennialists only claim they have one passage to support premillennialism.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Revelation 20 describes Christ's intermediate earthly kingdom, which will last for one thousand years, but other passages in the Bible also teach the idea of an intermediate kingdom. The interpretation of Revelation 20 and its placement after the second coming is a matter of debate among Christians, with different views held by premillennialists, postmillennialists, and amillennialists. Premillennialists believe in a future, literal reign of Jesus Christ on earth that will follow His Second Coming and precede the eternal state. However, some argue that premillennialists cannot provide clear and undeniable corroboration for their placement of Revelation 20 after the second coming and each of its main tenets, making it a private interpretation of one highly symbolic text. Other passages in the Bible, such as Isaiah 11 and 65-66, Zechariah 14, and 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, also indicate the idea of an intermediary stage of the eschatological kingdom. Ultimately, the interpretation of Revelation 20 and its placement after the second coming is a matter of hermeneutical, exegetical, and theological perspectives, and requires diligent study and humility when approaching it.
This is not a future event John saw there. Remember, John was caught up in the Spirit 2000 years ago (as Paul was to the 3rd heaven) to see heavenly things. He saw the souls of "the dead in Christ" (OT and NT) in heaven before the throne of God. They were no longer in Hades as was the case before Christ's first resurrection. John alludes to this several times from different angles throughout Revelation. The great tribulation referred to has been the believer's lot since the beginning. Right from righteouss Abel in the OT and righteouss Stephen in the NT, God's people have always suffered greatly for their faith.
There is nowhere in Scripture that teaches your 2 future comings and a secret rapture and a 7 year great tribulation. That was invented by JN Darby. That is why you cannot show us your rapture here.
Where in the Old or New Testament does it say that God will introduce the slaughter of innocent animals as sin sacrifices in the future, as a "memorial of the death of Jesus"? I do not see this any where. It totally undermines the cross-work and violates numerous NT Scripture.
Hebrews 9:11 directly rebukes those who look to an earthly carnal building in modern Israel. It explicitly states, “Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building.”
Christ erected a new better tabernacle. He introduced a new eternal covenant that will never be replaced or rivaled.
This is God’s perfect temple today – and it is eternal. This building will never fall, be replaced or share a central place with another.
Under the greater promises of the new covenant, Christ commenced the building of the temple built without hands and the opportunity of a literal fulfilment of Ezekiel’s temple passed because it was linked to the Mosaic covenant. Christ is the temple which is “a greater and more perfect tabernacle.” This tabernacle when entered by faith is an eternal shelter from a sin-cursed world. Hebrews 8:1-2 says, “We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.”
Christians look to the “greater … more perfect tabernacle” – which is “the true tabernacle.”
The earthly Israeli tabernacle and temples, beautiful as they were, were simply an inferior shadow and type of the true. Shall Christ leave the perfect temple in heaven for a mere shadow of it on earth? No! the old merely served as a shadow to the substance. The pointed the old covenant saints forward to a greater temple Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9:24 continues, “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.”
Dispensationalists try to explain away the New Testament reality, with a mistaken interpretation (and location) of an old covenant passage. The fuller revelation (the New Testament) makes it clear that the temple is Christ/His body the Church; it is located in the heavenly Jerusalem. It can be accessed of all nations, unlike the old imperfect shadow. Salvation is open to all nations today.
Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.
The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.
Because your location and understanding of Revelation 20 is wrong, you are forced to reject a literal reading of countless Scriptures. This is what error produces. You avoided the text I quoted or address the argument I presented. You failed to explain it. Forget about your Premil opinion for a moment. Where does Revelation 19 say that this rule is for 1000 years? You have to add that unto the inspired text.
For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory with a rod of iron for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. This is repeatedly advanced as a core fundamental of that theory. But when you dig a little bit deeper and press Premils, it is clear that this theory cannot be found in Revelation 20 – the only text they have that mentions a thousand years. In fact, nowhere in Scripture teaches that Christ will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years after the second coming in what is in reality a re-run of this current corrupt age.
It is what it is! You either see it or you do not. It is no major concern for me if you reject that.
As you dive into the book of Revelation it is important to recognize that it is not chronological. It is a series of recaps. It is a number of repetitions describing the spiritual battle going on during the intra-Advent period. It presents different camera views of the same game (mainly, the period between Christ's First Advent and His Second Advent). Sometimes when one is watching a sports game, the camera is close in on the action, sometimes it presents a broad panoramic view of the game. Sometimes it is focused on the coaches, sometimes it is focused on the players, other times, it is focused on the fans. The book Revelation is a bit like that. Sinclair Ferguson describes the apocalypse as: “Recapitulatory and progressive parallelism.” Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Parallels are simply different camera views of the same corresponding intra-Advent period which look at different aspects of the great battle between darkness and light. While they focus in on the same intra-Advent period, they focus different aspects of the overthrow of the kingdom of darkness. Revelation is written for the purpose of revealing the character and standing of Christ, His power and glory, following His victorious earthly ministry. It reveals who Christ is, His current standing, what His plan is, and it also ministers unto those who are going through tribulation.
Sometimes God is speaking primarily of the elect, sometimes He is majoring in on the wicked. Sometimes He is describing the righteous in heaven, sometimes the righteous on earth. Sometimes He is describing the wicked in Hades, sometimes He is talking about the wicked on earth. Sometimes He is describing humans that reside within the kingdom of darkness, sometimes He is describing the invisible demonic host that reside there. Although coming from divergent angles, the parallels are carefully interwoven like a linen cloth. Often to establish the meaning and format of the book, we have to meticulously and patiently fit the jig-saw pieces together in order to see the unfolding picture. That is not to say we have a full revelation of this peculiar book, but we can have an insight into this inspired book.
Sometimes Scripture is talking about Christ’s kingship. Sometimes it is talking about His priesthood. Other times it is speaking about His prophetic office. Sometimes it is talking about His Godhood. Sometimes it is talking about His manhood.
It is important to recognize the recaps (or repeats or different camera views) of the same general game in Revelation. Each show us an important different aspect of the defeat of the kingdom of darkness and the defeat of every enemy of righteousness. Each of these refer to different subjects, entities or aspects of God's unfolding plan during that time. Each recapitulation finishes with the gathering of the wicked together to battle against the righteous, followed by the glorious climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The main characters guiding the kingdom of darkness are Satan, the beast and the false prophet. They have been operating in unison for a long time. Their aim is to come in-between Christ and His Church and suppress the spread of the good news of the Gospel. In the various recaps, sometimes God concentrates on Satan and how he deals with him. Sometimes he is focused in on the beast and how he deals with him. Sometimes he is describing the false prophet and how he deals with him. That does not negate the existence and parallel work of all three. Their fate is closely knitted together.
The fate of the Satan, demons, the beast (antichrist spirit or the mystery of iniquity) and the wicked are all tied together. Because the kingdom of darkness is a unitary whole, the fate of all are tied together, Satan being the representative head. When Satan was defeated, the kingdom of darkness was defeated. When Satan was banished to the pit, so also was the beast. When Satan is released before the second coming so also is the beast and all the demonic realm. When Satan is destroyed at the second coming so also is the beast and all the demonic realm.
This text is talking about that which is left behind on earth, not God's elect, the angelic host or the kingdom of God. I suspect you know that!
The coming of Christ comes first, and the catching away of all God’s people occurs before the judgement of all the wicked and the kingdom of darkness. No one left behind survives this. All flesh is destroyed. Repeated Scripture teaches this. You see that in “the marriage of the Lamb” in Revelation 19:7, which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ). The saints then return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked.
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I cannot interact with your outside sources so I have no interest reading this. When a poster does this they normally admit they have no rebuttal to what is before them.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Some premil will agree with you that Revelation is not chronological.
Revelation states Satan will be placed in the pit at the same time the beast and the FP are placed into the LOF.
Were the beast and FP placed into the LOF in the first century when Satan was bound?
I agree that all humanity will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible physical body in the days following the Second Coming. That is what the book of Revelation teaches in corroboration of Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. That is what the Trumpets and Thunders are given for. John is declaring the final harvest. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for the final harvest.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I present my own stuff. If it is a small quote of another that fits, I will present. If Premils avoid my posts, as some do, I do not erase the research I have done. I keep them for future use.
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