Premils cannot even correlate Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, never mind rebut the multiple Scriptures they duck around that show a climactic return of Christ. Thankfully, this will spell the end of sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions. It is time to come clean! You have been avoiding the obvious for long enough!
Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming
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Premils cannot even correlate Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, never mind rebut the multiple Scriptures they duck around that show a climactic return of Christ. Thankfully, this will spell the end of sin and sinners, dying and crying, disease and decay, corruption and crime, riots and rebellion, war and terror and Satan and his minions. It is time to come clean! You have been avoiding the obvious for long enough!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Answer in Rev. 19:20-21
Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were0 filled with their flesh.
> Not all will take the mark of the Beast and worship him.
> Not all nations go against Israel. The Beast is made up of ten nations, not 195. My view is that they are Islamic nations as we see currently. There are already five involved and this war is escalating: This Iran proxy war funds terrorism (Palestianians, Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas, ISIS, al- Quaida spread throughout many countries. Currently five are involved in this war.
Zech. 14:16 confirms that people are Left behind. "And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacle:
Other scriptures support massive destruction but not total.
In REV. 6 the 4 Horseman bring about death to (1/4) of the population = 2 billion. That leaves 6 billion ( depending on if Christians have been taken up yet - which I don't think).
In Rev. 9:15 ( the 6th trumpet), four angels are released to kill another 1/3, ( 2 billion). That's have of the population which is an accumulative amount caused by all events within Seals and Trumpets. Christians total somewhere near 1/3 of the current population, so the equals 2.7 billion. That leaves 1.3 billion to endure the wrath in the Seven Bowls, Armageddon, etc.
In Rev 8, the first four trumpets events cause damage to 1/3 of the planet, likely the Middle East: 1/3 of the planet on fire which would cause 1/3 of the sun to be darkened, 1/3 of the fish in the sea killed, 1/3 of the sea vessels destroyed and so it appears that it is centered in that region. Start in Jerusalem, draw a circle with a radius of 4,000 miles around it and you have 1/3 of the planet.
People will survive outside of that circle and it has been postulated that a remnant Jewish population will be protected during this time , maybe in Petra or scattered here and there? Likey hundreds of millions will die in Armageddon. Blessed are those who make to day 1335.
You still have not showed us your Pretrib rapture in Revelation. That is because it is not there.
You are always explaining away the fuller revelation with your opinion of the vaguer Old Testament prediction. That is Premil in a nutshell. It make the OT passages say what you want. You can locate them at will in some age you create in-between the old covenant and the new covenant.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You said Satan was not bound at Armageddon. If Satan was at Armageddon, that is when the beast and FP were tossed into the LOF. The same time Satan was bound in the pit.
There were no chapters and verse numbers in John's letter. Those are artificial constructs. Just like the man made theory of recapitulation.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It will yes - for a thousand years, after which there will be (ONE) final rebellion on behalf of a part of mankind that had been deceived by Satan (one more time) resulting in Satan's destruction in the lake of fire (once), the destruction of death and hades in the lake of fire (once), and the casting of all whose names are not found in the Lamb's book of life - including those whose names were blotted out of the Lamb's book of life - into the lake of fire (once).
If you will accept and believe what the scripture says about it, you would not need to duck and dive around Revelation 20:1-6 the way you do, because it's impossible for people beheaded for refusal to worship the beast being seen alive in their bodies (zao) before the beast even ascended from the abyss.
You would also not need to duck and dive around all the scriptures talking about Satan's control of this world during the age before the return of Christ, deception of the nations, and activities in the world as he goes about doing this, as well as the warning given to the saints about how they should prepare and react to his activities and his wiles.
You would also not need to use sheer conjecture to pull other scriptures together that do not speak about the binding and imprisonment of Satan in the abyss so that he is unable to deceive the nations, and eisegetically insert the binding of Satan into them so as to make failed attempts at placing Satan's binding in an age prior to the return of Christ.
But this will only happen if you will accept and believe what the scripture says about it.
There is no catching away or physical resurrection mentioned there. You know that!
Who are these billions of wicked who arise to overrun your millennial kingdom then?
How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.
The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.
The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.
The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.
The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.
The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.
The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.
The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.
The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Really? WPM (Without Perception or Meaning) cannot discern that in
Rev. 7:9,
"a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the th5rone, and to the Lamb ... (vs. 14) These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb,"
describes the resurrection of the Church?
Or in Rev. 10:7, "but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound,
1. the mystery of God would be finished"
and
in Rev. 11:15-19,
seventh angel sounded:
2. The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ,
3. and He shall reign forever and ever!”
4. “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,5. Your wrath has come,
6. And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, ...
7. reward Your servants ...
8. the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and then
9. the Seven Bowls of wrath are released.
These passages don't sound like they are describing the Resurrection?
Okay. Adios, this time I mean it.
Where does it mention the rapture of the Church here? Nowhere! Revelation is just 7 recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent period. There is nowhere in Scripture that teaches a 7 yrs trib sandwiched between 2 comings. This is argument enough to reject it. You place a meaning on this text that is wrong.
Revelation 7:9-17 reveals, “I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb…one of the elders answered, saying unto me, what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
Not only has the catching away NOT happened here, this is talking about the dead in Christ in heaven now. This is the souls of the redeemed who are clearly located in heaven worshipping Christ. This relates to the intra-Advent period. They are absent from the body, present with the Lord.
Can you show us one single Scripture that describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?
Revelation 11:15: “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
Verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” not for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.” Those who reject such evidence do so (in the main) in order to support the Pretribulationist doctrine.
At the last trumpet, Christ will “reward” the saints and “destroy” the wicked. It is “the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” One wonders how anyone could not see a general resurrection of the dead here in order to enable a general judgment.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
No, that's your "millennium you are describing. The one the Revelation of Jesus is describing in Revelation 20 isn't the your "millennium".
You are implying that the Garden of Eden was sin-infested all the time even before Satan deceived Adam and Eve.
PS: The second death is everlasting. Eternity contains death. The lake of fire. Only the dead exist in the sea that will deliver them up.
From then on and for all eternity all those whose names are not found in the book of LIFE will be DEAD.
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Your so-called future millennium is overrun by the wicked after Jesus reigning over a perfect environment. I do not think it. Your future earth is full of wicked in their billions feigning worship to Jesus until their master Satan arises up.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You are implying that the Garden of Eden was sin-infested all the time even before Satan deceived Adam and Eve.
PS: The second death is everlasting. Eternity contains death. The lake of fire. Only the dead exist in the sea that will deliver them up.
From then on and for all eternity all those whose names are not found in the book of LIFE will be DEAD.
Your attempt to remove the lake of fire will be useless. You cannot. God is infinitely more powerful than you.
The Premil millennium has been portrayed for years as some Edenic arrangement with unparalleled bliss and wholesale submission to righteousness, when in fact it is simply more of the same. Basically, their millennium is just a mirror of our day with sin abounding and the bondage of corruption prospering. You have continued death, decay, sickness, funerals, crying, hatred, strife and wickedness prospers. This all ends with rebellion in history.
This whole Premil presentation is a clear bust. It is a debacle. I am sure glad it is not going to happen.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
John states Satan is thrown into the LOF after the 1,000 years. And yes in order. Just like 1 Corinthians 15 gives an order to being made alive. The OT were made alive at the Cross. Many at the Second Coming. The earth made alive and handed to God, also after the 1,000 years.
Jesus must reign on earth while Satan is in the pit bound.
"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."
That includes Satan tossed into the LOF after the thousand years of being bound. No verse states that thousand years needs to be extended nor symbolic of anything but a thousand years.
No one is limiting the reign of Christ to mere seconds like Amil from the Second Coming to the end. Or the 1,000 years between the Second Coming and the end. Jesus has been reigning the entire creation. The limit is set to the time Satan is bound, and the time those rewarded with a thousand year rule. No one is promised to reign over earth for all of creation, much less eternity.
The church is currently reigning physically from heaven, but you deny that as you deny the first resurrection is physical. Those on earth do not see the church reigning, but that does not negate that reign. I don't need Revelation 20 to tell me the church is currently reigning. Revelation 20 is a different time frame after the Second Coming.
There are so many errors in yours posts that it is difficult to address them all.
Where does it show Jesus on earth in Revelation 20? Nowhere! That is your own invention. You then build your argument on your own invention. That is not smart! That is why your paradigm falls apart every time. You cannot even except the correct commencement of the millennium at the first resurrection of Christ. You reject that. Everything else then falls apart after that. After Satan's little season comes the second coming. I've already showed you evidence of that. But you reject that. There is nothing I can do with that. It is upon your own head.
The physical resurrection at the second coming is not the first if Jesus resurrection precedes it. That is a no brainer. Scripture tells us that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Nowhere does it call the future resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection.
God is a God of order. There is an order to everything God does. In the Garden of Eden God judged Adam and Eve before he judged Satan. He left him to the last. Why would He not do it again? 1 Corinthians 15:22–23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 outline how there is an order to the resurrection/judgment of mankind.
1 Corinthians 15:22–23 teaches: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 tells us: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
The righteous precede the wicked on resurrection day. The dead in Christ precede the live in Christ when Jesus comes. God works through order. That does not mean we are looking at different events. They happen at the same climactic event.
Why would the same not happen in the demonic realm when Jesus comes?
Revelation 20 parallels Revelation 17-19 and isn't chronological. The different cycles simply touch different subject-matters. They are different camera views of the same game. The end of Revelation 19 corresponds with the end of Satan's little season (Revelation 20). All flesh is destroyed when Jesus appears here. The beast is simply the anti-Christ spirit of this world and the false prophet 'false religion'. The end of Revelation 20 is a depiction of the end of the world also. It is just another recap. I have no difficulty believing Satan's judgment completes the final judgment. However, this all occurs at the one final future all-consummating coming of Christ.
The beast and false prophet precede Satan to the lake of fire at Christ's coming. That does not suggest a notable space of time. There is no reason to believe that. There is no indication of a significant space of time in between the incarceration of the beast and false prophet and Satan in the lake of fire. It does not indicate 1000 years of time in between their eternal damnation. That only exist in Premillennialist teaching.
There will clearly be an order to the judgment which may see one person or entity judged before another, however, it does not take away from the overall general judgment of humans and the angelic realm. Clearly, the beast and the false prophet precede Satan in being banished to the Lake of Fire, but that does not prove Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19 in time. Nor does it demand a thousand years period in-between. Revelation 20 is the beginning of the last recap and takes us back to Christ's first resurrection. But Revelation 17-19 is focused on one aspect of the game, and Revelation 20 another. Revelation 17-19 is focused on God's overthrow of Babylon, and the final punishment of the beast and the false prophet whereas Revelation 20 is focused on the subjugation of Satan in this current period and his final destruction when Jesus comes.
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