What is your notion of Christian exclusivity?

[Wrangler]

That is how non believers are saved.....begotten of the Father, of His Spirit, not by the will of man.

Not really sure what you are talking about or how it relates to the previous posts.

Anyway, I like good things.

 

[Bob Estey]

Christian exclusivity is the core doctrine that only Christians will be saved. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6, NKJV.

The common understanding is that non-Christians are destined for eternity in hell. Is this your understanding - i.e., all Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, atheists and other non-Christians are destined for hell? Considering the widely different circumstances of people across the globe - the widely different odds of them ever hearing about Jesus in a meaningful way or turning to Him even if they do - I find this difficult if not impossible to believe.

William Lane Craig has suggested that perhaps God has "arranged things" so that those He foreknew would turn to Christ are geographically located so they will hear and respond. A kid born into a Southern Baptist family in the Bible belt and a kid born into a low-caste Hindu family in New Delhi are where they are because God foreknew the former would respond to Jesus and the latter would not. Not very convincing, at least to me.

Calvinism has less of a problem with this issue, it seems to me. All humans are depraved and deserving of hell, God's predestined elect will be saved no matter where they are because this is what God has decreed, and those who aren't saved simply weren't among the elect. All fairly neat and tidy, although perhaps not much different from what Craig suggests.

Universalism has less problem as well. All will eventually be saved, even if it takes eons in hell before some of them turn to God. Exclusivity ultimately isn't exclusive at all!

Another approach that occurred to me is that perhaps "No one comes to the Father except through me" means something different from Christian exclusivity as commonly understood. Perhaps it means Jesus is the gatekeeper - He decides who is saved, but this could include Hindis, Buddhists or anyone else. I recall Billy Graham once causing a furor by suggesting there might be "secret Christians" who didn't even know they were.

After reading a large mountain of theology and apologetics over the decades, I really don't have a satisfactory answer. (Yes, I know, God's ways are not my ways and don't have to make sense to me.)

Some 54 years ago, when I was almost a newbie, the Campus Crusade staff member at our university asked me to fill in for him one night. A girl named Sherry asked, "Do we really think all Buddhists are going to hell?" I responded, "We have to believe and trust that God will deal with Buddhists in a way worthy of who we believe Him to be." I don't think I have a better answer now. Yes, it is kind of punting on the issue - chalking it up to a divine mystery - but I find this more satisfactory than pretending I really believe God is condemning vast swaths of humanity to eternal torment in hell. (Actually, I do the same with the doctrine of hell - whatever hell is, we will see how it is worthy of the God in whom we believe.)

(The next day, the staff member smilingly said "Hey, I don't know what you told Sherry, but it really helped her!" I told him what I'd told her. "Great answer!" he said. "Of course, they ARE all going to hell." I knew then that I probably wasn't Crusade staff material.)

How do you make peace with the doctrine of exclusivity? Or perhaps it doesn't trouble you at all?

I think anyone who loves God with all their heart, soul, and mind, and loves their neighbors as themselves. On what grounds can they be condemned?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Agree with your post in the main...except one point...I don't see any room in God's word that some can be saved after death....? Bible says it is appointed unto man but once to die and then the judgment. It seems contradictory to say that God wants us to testify so that nobody has an excuse...and then say some have the excuse of ignorance so they can be saved after death? Especially when the word says man is without excuse because even creation itself testifies of Him.

All will be judged, and none will have an excuse because all have a conscience and all can hear, in a sense, the word of God. But we know, from experience and from Scriptures, that sin has robbed mankind of the ability to hear God clearly at all times. Jesus said to forgive Israel "for they know not what they do." This means some were forgiven even in their ignorance--even if they died in their ignorance, simply because if they had known what they should do they would've done it.

So the testimony of the Gospel is God using men to reach men so that God is not bypassing the world that mankind chose to live in. God has committed Himself to the process by which people are used by God to reach out into the world where they live.

Angels are not sent down to save people. God doesn't win people with visions and signs primarily. What reaches people are people who themselves have chosen to receive redemption so that they have a valid offer for others of their own kind in their own condition.

Jesus was initially able to minister Eternal Life, whereas others before him had only preached its hope. And after Jesus his followers became able to minister Eternal Life to others, as well. Jesus and we have all lived in this world, and are given, by God, the capacity to share the grace we ourselves have received. This is how God testifies of Eternal Life to mankind. It is a long drawn-out process of ministry.

We also can forgive those who "know not what they do," even if they die before they fully understand. Obviously, if they "know not what they do" they do not yet fully understand! They can be Saved after death if they don't yet fully understand! If we were perfect, I suppose all would be adequately reached. But we are *not* perfect!

Since God has chosen this relatively slow process of using mankind who themselves have brought themselves into this fallen world, we know that the effectiveness of the ministry of men God uses is limited. God began with Israel and after a couple of thousand years reached out through them to the nations. But God could only use a limited number of people in Israel, due to human weakness and failure.

And once God reached the nations, those nations experienced the same traumatic process that Israel experienced, with a relative few able to reach out to those who didn't know but would respond. Some are effectively reached, whereas many remain inadequately touched, as opposed to those who outright reject the Gospel.

Not all those who respond to the Gospel are responsible with it. And so, many more will be granted Salvation after death for God's Kingdom than are actually effectively brought into Salvation in this life with the Gospel. Many, many people are not reached in this long drawn-out process, meaning that many who are unreached will be Saved, even though they were not successfully called into ministry, to be witnesses.

Paul said in Rom 2 that God judged some pagan Gentiles to be more righteous than Jews who had been under the Law, and yet not succeeding in it. And so, it is clear, at least to me, that God has always judged people by what they know, in a limited sense, and by what they do, even passing over their failures due to the troublesome nature of this world and sin.

God will judge people by His mercy, whether before or after death, but He will judge according to what people actually know and not by what they don't know. That is clear to me, since the Bible says that God will judge the whole world by His word of conviction.

If we're talking about what can bring us into Salvation now, so that we can testify of Christ to the world, that can only come in this life and through Christ. This is the thing that moves God's plan along, but He is still able to save those who fail, as well as those who had limited knowledge of right and wrong. My opinion only.

 

[St. SteVen]

Universalism has less problem as well. All will eventually be saved, even if it takes eons in hell before some of them turn to God. Exclusivity ultimately isn't exclusive at all!

As I understand UR, the age of restoration is curative, not punitive.
Painful to deal with the stuff we need to be healed from, but not in the sense of retributive punishment or coercive torture.
Imagine a psychology session with one that knew you inside and out, someone you couldn't lie to.
Someone that knew and understood all the wounds you have received in this life. The great physician.

How do you make peace with the doctrine of exclusivity? Or perhaps it doesn't trouble you at all?

Great topic. I agree that this is an issue.

We cannot come to God until he draws us. Eventually everyone will be drawn.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
In heaven, on earth and under the earth. (the realm of the dead) - (Philippians 2:10-11)

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

/

 

[Spyder]

I don't accept any doctrine that is not supported by at least two witnesses. Therefore, I don't accept a popular belief based on one proof-text.

Whenever passages do support each other, then I ponder them and see if any passages contradict them. I think many of us have a problem doing that because we argue from the idea of absence of statements or cannot accept, based on intended audience and the culture of that climate.

The bottom line in any discussion about who we (if we endure to the end) will see on the New Earth. We are already told that we do not have the mind of God or any of his Godly powers. Knowing that, I keep this in mind:

Ro 9:14–18 By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

I'm not going to tell Yahweh that He made a mistake by letting someone in that never knew His Son.

 

[St. SteVen]

(if we endure to the end)

I don't buy that as a caveat to salvation.
You are saved unless... _______________________________ (list the exceptions here)

Ro 9:14–18 By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The serpent (Satan), Pharoah, and Judas (among others) all played a role in the story of the Fall of humankind,
the Exodus and the Redemption of humankind. Should they be punished?

I'm not going to tell Yahweh that He made a mistake by letting someone in that never knew His Son.

Well...
Did everyone have an opportunity?
Are they to blame for that?
Can anyone come to God unless he draws them?

/

 

[Mr E]

Hey...I suppose the ancient paths can appear to be fresh in a renewed way. The truth is dynamic...and cannot be boiled down to a creed like a box to be checked off.

The holy walk was there in the garden of Eden. Adam before the fall. And the righteous walk began with Abel. But the ancient paths have never been acceptable to men. These prefer a sort of hybrid... with the maximum reward of holiness for the minimum requirement in righteousness. Neither standard is met in this way.

“Thus says the LORD, Stand in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and you shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.” Jer. 6:16

The Christian beginnings are not 'the ancient path' per se. The coming of the Christ is always a course correction. Someone comes along (anointed by the spirit) and sets things straight. We see this with Jesus, in his dealings with the religious leaders-- and we've seen it many times when 'the word' came to this prophet and that one--- and they too, made course corrections.

The old paths were already old, when Jeremiah referenced them.

 

[Episkopos]

The Christian beginnings are not 'the ancient path' per se. The coming of the Christ is always a course correction. Someone comes along (anointed by the spirit) and sets things straight. We see this with Jesus, in his dealings with the religious leaders-- and we've seen it many times when 'the word' came to this prophet and that one--- and they too, made course corrections.

The old paths were already old, when Jeremiah referenced them.

That's because the paths are eternal. Olam. Netivot olam "eternal paths". God has always been holy. And He has always been righteous. We, for the most part have been neither of these. That's why we need to discover God and His ways.

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you say? (topic link below)

Is Revenge a Sin?

/

 

[MatthewG]

The serpent (Satan), Pharoah, and Judas (among others) all played a role in the story of the Fall of humankind,
the Exodus and the Redemption of humankind. Should they be punished?

Who are we to question God and his decisions when it comes by the promise of doing away with the devil in Genesis? He promised he would have his crushed in. He is now down away with, in the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire? Does it comes from God?

Does God punish people? Or does he get his vengeance in order for justice to be served? By the use of other faithful believers who find the person who did the crime? God used even unbelievers and Satan to get his will done with having Israel wiped out. There is tells of Yahava mention to kill others even in the Old Testament? Jesus even speaks about killing of children in one of the addressed Churches in revelation.

I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Was God wrong to have those things done?

@St. SteVen

 

[Illuminator]

As I understand UR, the age of restoration is curative, not punitive.
Painful to deal with the stuff we need to be healed from, but not in the sense of retributive punishment or coercive torture.
Imagine a psychology session with one that knew you inside and out, someone you couldn't lie to.
Someone that knew and understood all the wounds you have received in this life. The great physician.


Great topic. I agree that this is an issue.

We cannot come to God until he draws us. Eventually everyone will be drawn.
Every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
In heaven, on earth and under the earth. (the realm of the dead) - (Philippians 2:10-11)

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

/

Someone wrote: Christian exclusivity is the core doctrine that only Christians will be saved. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6, NKJV.

Christian exclusivity restricts this passage to apply only to those who are alive on earth. Jesus has the authority to bring certain non-
Christians to the Father after death, because it's no ones fault for being born in a non-Christian society.

 

[Illuminator]

Who are we to question God and his decisions when it comes by the promise of doing away with the devil in Genesis? He promised he would have his crushed in. He is now down away with, in the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire? Does it comes from God?

Does God punish people? Or does he get his vengeance in order for justice to be served? By the use of other faithful believers who find the person who did the crime? God used even unbelievers and Satan to get his will done with having Israel wiped out. There is tells of Yahava mention to kill others even in the Old Testament? Jesus even speaks about killing of children in one of the addressed Churches in revelation.

I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Was God wrong to have those things done?

@St. SteVen

​

 

[MatthewG]

View attachment 42272​

Not sure why you desired to share with me, this quote by this man, Scott Hahn. It’s understandable that people admire people who are passionate and write about things pertaining to God. It doesn’t make however what someone says absolute truth.

@St. SteVen would you say Gods wrath is part of his love? @Illuminator, I do not believe Gods wrath abides on anyone anymore, personally.

The curses Scott talked about, by Gods own covenant which he made a promised with Himself, the promise of cutting the tree down with the Ax(Israel), was done when Gods wrath was poured out on the tribes of Israel which are no more. There were plagues that fell upon them as promised, similar to what happened to Egypt because in Jesus day and onward they continued to progress being signified as Spiritual Egypt, in Revelation.

I do not find anything about Gods love pertaining to his wrath; when his wrath is a promise to come upon the Nation of Israel, and doesn’t abide on anyone anymore, unless Jesus hasn’t come back yet and then yeah the wrath of God still abides.

 

[Illuminator]

Not sure why you desired to share with me, this quote by this man, Scott Hahn. It’s understandable that people admire people who are passionate and write about things pertaining to God. It doesn’t make however what someone says absolute truth.

The quote doesn't have to be absolute truth to be truthful. God is all merciful and all just, and neither of these truthful attributes fit well with a wrathful God concept. "Wrath" is a human attribute, so the term in context is not literal, but an anthropomorphism. (Britannica)

@St. SteVen would you say Gods wrath is part of his love? @Illuminator, I do not believe Gods wrath abides on anyone anymore, personally.

Well, that's a relief.

The curses Scott talked about, by Gods own covenant which he made a promised with Himself, the promise of cutting the tree down with the Ax(Israel), was done when Gods wrath was poured out on the tribes of Israel which are no more.

The quote makes no mention of covenants or Israel.

There were plagues that fell upon them as promised, similar to what happened to Egypt because in Jesus day and onward they continued to progress being signified as Spiritual Egypt, in Revelation.

The quote makes no mention of Spiritual Egypt or Revelation.

I do not find anything about Gods love pertaining to his wrath; when his wrath is a promise to come upon the Nation of Israel, and doesn’t abide on anyone anymore, unless Jesus hasn’t come back yet and then yeah the wrath of God still abides.

Yea, and Jesus will literally smite all the bad guys with a sword flying out His mouth.
Please re-read the quote, You missed the point entirely. It's not the content of the quote that bothers you as much as who wrote it.

This is one minute long:

This one is 47+ minutes long:

 

[Peterlag]

Christian exclusivity is the core doctrine that only Christians will be saved. "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'" John 14:6, NKJV.

The common understanding is that non-Christians are destined for eternity in hell. Is this your understanding - i.e., all Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, atheists and other non-Christians are destined for hell? Considering the widely different circumstances of people across the globe - the widely different odds of them ever hearing about Jesus in a meaningful way or turning to Him even if they do - I find this difficult if not impossible to believe.

William Lane Craig has suggested that perhaps God has "arranged things" so that those He foreknew would turn to Christ are geographically located so they will hear and respond. A kid born into a Southern Baptist family in the Bible belt and a kid born into a low-caste Hindu family in New Delhi are where they are because God foreknew the former would respond to Jesus and the latter would not. Not very convincing, at least to me.

Calvinism has less of a problem with this issue, it seems to me. All humans are depraved and deserving of hell, God's predestined elect will be saved no matter where they are because this is what God has decreed, and those who aren't saved simply weren't among the elect. All fairly neat and tidy, although perhaps not much different from what Craig suggests.

Universalism has less problem as well. All will eventually be saved, even if it takes eons in hell before some of them turn to God. Exclusivity ultimately isn't exclusive at all!

Another approach that occurred to me is that perhaps "No one comes to the Father except through me" means something different from Christian exclusivity as commonly understood. Perhaps it means Jesus is the gatekeeper - He decides who is saved, but this could include Hindis, Buddhists or anyone else. I recall Billy Graham once causing a furor by suggesting there might be "secret Christians" who didn't even know they were.

After reading a large mountain of theology and apologetics over the decades, I really don't have a satisfactory answer. (Yes, I know, God's ways are not my ways and don't have to make sense to me.)

Some 54 years ago, when I was almost a newbie, the Campus Crusade staff member at our university asked me to fill in for him one night. A girl named Sherry asked, "Do we really think all Buddhists are going to hell?" I responded, "We have to believe and trust that God will deal with Buddhists in a way worthy of who we believe Him to be." I don't think I have a better answer now. Yes, it is kind of punting on the issue - chalking it up to a divine mystery - but I find this more satisfactory than pretending I really believe God is condemning vast swaths of humanity to eternal torment in hell. (Actually, I do the same with the doctrine of hell - whatever hell is, we will see how it is worthy of the God in whom we believe.)

(The next day, the staff member smilingly said "Hey, I don't know what you told Sherry, but it really helped her!" I told him what I'd told her. "Great answer!" he said. "Of course, they ARE all going to hell." I knew then that I probably wasn't Crusade staff material.)

How do you make peace with the doctrine of exclusivity? Or perhaps it doesn't trouble you at all?

A couple of things that hit my mind as I look at your post are...

Many churches teach God called certain people because the New Testament has places where it talks about those who God called. I think God called everyone and only certain people answered the call. In Ephesians 1:4, it says God chose us in Christ beforehand, and in Revelation 17:8, it says certain names have been written in a book from the foundation of the world. It's the group, the body of Christ that is foreordained from the foundation of the world, and not specific individuals selected by God for salvation.

Also I don't think there's a hell of everlasting torture, but rather a lake of fire where folks get burned up. Wasn't it the word hell that means the grave that the Catholics turned into something not biblical? And then there's this...

Romans 1:19-20
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Hillsage]

I don't accept any doctrine that is not supported by at least two witnesses. Therefore, I don't accept a popular belief based on one proof-text.

Is there another verse that says 'we must endure to the end'?
The bottom line in any discussion about who we (if we endure to the end) will see on the New Earth. We are already told that we do not have the mind of God or any of his Godly powers. Knowing that, I keep this in mind:

I think that the 'one verse' that says "(if we endure to the end)" is referring to those at the beginning of the chapter.


MAT 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?"

They were asking for the "sign of your coming/parousia" and that word "coming" is defined as;

3952 parousia
a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; spec. of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by impl.) phys. aspect

And the "close of the age" I believe is talking about the age of the OLD COVENANT along with the temple sacrifice for sins. Something that Jesus fulfilled with his death on the cross. And something the Jewish leaders perpetuated until Jerusalem was destroyed along with the temple.

What they were going to have to "endure" was the persecution from the Jews....or more specifically the Pharisees and Saducees who wouldn't let the OLD COVENANT go.

Ro 9:14–18 By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

I'm not going to tell Yahweh that He made a mistake by letting someone in that never knew His Son.

Look at the definition of the words MERCY and COMPASSION in that verse.

COMPASSION just means you feel sorry for someone...but you aren't doing anything for them...YET.
MERCY means 'to compassionate with word or deed'....IOW you 'say' or 'do' something. And my understanding of UR is you don't decide when God is going to grant you REPENTANCE and GIVE YOU THE FAITH TO BELIEVE.

2TI 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word /RHEMA of God.

IOW the word that proceeds from the mouth of God to your spiritual ear, is the WORD that you hear and that gives you faith to believe for your spirit to be born again.

 

[MatthewG]

Please re-read the quote, You missed the point entirely. It's not the content of the quote that bothers you as much as who wrote it.

I dont know Scott. I have no desire to reread the quote.

The bible mentions things that were mentioned by myself.

It's all good mate, I do not desire to go and check the mans stuff out. By all means he is a person who is a faithful believer, as far as I know. I just do not agree with his quote because its context is messed up, in my opinion.

 

[Illuminator]

I dont know Scott. I have no desire to reread the quote.

The bible mentions things that were mentioned by myself.

It's all good mate, I do not desire to go and check the mans stuff out. By all means he is a person who is a faithful believer, as far as I know. I just do not agree with his quote because its context is messed up, in my opinion.

Why? Because it contradicts your opinion of Judgment? Why don't you address the context instead of airhead generalities?
Scott Hahn is NOT anti-Protestant, so there is no need to be afraid of him. Here's a few more quotes for you to run from:

Scott Hahn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MatthewG]

No because no one is God to judge, and judgment concerning the Wrath of God pertains to Israel in my view. Good luck to you always in Christ.

Why? Because it contradicts your opinion of Judgment? Why don't you address the context instead of airhead generalities?
Scott Hahn is NOT anti-Protestant, so there is no need to be afraid of him. Here's a few more quotes for you to run fromView attachment 42332View attachment 42333

View attachment 42335
View attachment 42336

Scott Hahn - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Illuminator]

Did God command the slaughtering of the Amalekites out of judgement, or to protect His Chosen from their moral contamination that was seeping in? I favor the latter not excluding the former.

"How Can God Order The Massacre Of Innocents?" (Amalekites, Etc.)

God as Creator has the prerogative to judge Amalekites or anyone else, just as judges punish criminals for violating "just" laws that govern the society.

www.patheos.com

oops! off topic. my bad. Regardless, I think we are more in agreement than we disagree.