25 reasons why you should abandon Premillennialism

[Phil .]

In our very near future.

Have you ever actually experienced a future?

 

[WPM]

That is what I posted, and you claimed the regeneration of the earth was my wrong paradigm.

When did i say that?

 

[Keraz]

Have you ever actually experienced a future?

Here's the facts Phil; the world simply cannot continue on as it is for much longer.
There has to come some kind of dramatic and world changing event to resolve the intractable issues facing us today.

As Christians, we all believe in our Redeemer and accept the Salvation Jesus offers to everyone. Why is it so difficult to believe what all the Bible Prophets tell us about a future Day when the Lord will send His vengeance and wrath to reset our civilization?
Over 100 Prophesies describe in great detail, what it is that the Lord will send, it's effects and what happens after it.

But no: people prefer to go off into fantasies, to believe theories that have no Biblical support, just as Paul predicted. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
This is very unfortunate, as it leaves people in the dark, 1 Thess 5:4, not knowing which way to move, Luke 21:25-26

 

[Phil .]

Here's the facts Phil; the world simply cannot continue on as it is for much longer.
There has to come some kind of dramatic and world changing event to resolve the intractable issues facing us today.

As Christians, we all believe in our Redeemer and accept the Salvation Jesus offers to everyone. Why is it so difficult to believe what all the Bible Prophets tell us about a future Day when the Lord will send His vengeance and wrath to reset our civilization?
Over 100 Prophesies describe in great detail, what it is that the Lord will send, it's effects and what happens after it.

The present can’t come in a future.

But no: people prefer to go off into fantasies, to believe theories that have no Biblical support, just as Paul predicted. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
This is very unfortunate, as it leaves people in the dark, 1 Thess 5:4, not knowing which way to move, Luke 21:25-

That the present can’t come in a future doesn’t seem like a fantasy. It’s seems like it is; reality. Self-inherent. Self-evident.

 

[Timtofly]

When did i say that?

It is a totally destructive climactic return. There is no space for your paradigm. That is why you ignore so much Scripture. Your rebuttal is your own opinions.

That was in reply to:

So the wicked were addressed as "the beloved"?

You seem to be the only one scoffing about the Day of the Lord being a future Millennium.

The Day of the Lord will come.

The Day of the Lord will be totally different than the last two millennia.

You avoided your own point that Peter says:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

You said Peter was addressing the scoffers. Peter was addressing you! You are part of the beloved, yes?

The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years. But the Day of the Lord cannot start until all the works of man are burned up and tried in the baptism of fire. It never says humans are burned up. Humans are judged while physically alive and separated as sheep from goats and wheat from tares. That happens after the Second Coming after the 6th Seal, during the Trumpets and Thunders. People are still alive hiding from the face of God, as they can now see God sitting on the GWT. The 6th Seal is not the end of Revelation 20. The 6th Seal is the return to the Mount of Olives by Jesus per Zechariah 14. You may claim the 6th Seal is just a parallel account. No, the 6th Seal is the only Second Coming and it is to the Mount of Olives. You are forcing the wrong scenario into Revelation 20. You are not letting Scripture interpret what is written.

The whole earth has just been rearranged. Every mountain and continent have been moved both literally and symbolically changing human government as we know it. The 6th head being severely wounded to the point of death. Your climactic end to sin will take a few days, while the 7 Trumpets and 7 Thunders sound. All the stars fall to earth as the angels that Jesus brings with Him per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The virtual reality of this universe that humans think exists out there has been dissolved and spiritual blindness removed. All will see the GWT that has always existed from the beginning of creation.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree."

The Trumpets sound for roll call after the Second Coming.

The 7th Trumpet will be the deciding point if Satan gets 42 months or not, and that is not the little season in Revelation 20. If there is no 42 month extension granted to time, then Satan is bound and there will never be a FP nor a beasts, nor an Armageddon. Time is up before that 42 months is even mentioned in Revelation 13. Those 42 months do not happen prior to the 7th Trumpet.

You all are looking for the AC or some "one world declaration" to sound to prepare for your "last day of time". That ain't going to happen. Satan is not going to be loosed prior to "your Second Coming". The Second Coming will have no warning. The only warning was the parable of the fig tree, and that happened in 1948. Either you will be prepared or not.

 

[WPM]

That was in reply to:

You avoided your own point that Peter says:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

You said Peter was addressing the scoffers. Peter was addressing you! You are part of the beloved, yes?

The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years. But the Day of the Lord cannot start until all the works of man are burned up and tried in the baptism of fire. It never says humans are burned up. Humans are judged while physically alive and separated as sheep from goats and wheat from tares. That happens after the Second Coming after the 6th Seal, during the Trumpets and Thunders. People are still alive hiding from the face of God, as they can now see God sitting on the GWT. The 6th Seal is not the end of Revelation 20. The 6th Seal is the return to the Mount of Olives by Jesus per Zechariah 14. You may claim the 6th Seal is just a parallel account. No, the 6th Seal is the only Second Coming and it is to the Mount of Olives. You are forcing the wrong scenario into Revelation 20. You are not letting Scripture interpret what is written.

The whole earth has just been rearranged. Every mountain and continent have been moved both literally and symbolically changing human government as we know it. The 6th head being severely wounded to the point of death. Your climactic end to sin will take a few days, while the 7 Trumpets and 7 Thunders sound. All the stars fall to earth as the angels that Jesus brings with Him per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The virtual reality of this universe that humans think exists out there has been dissolved and spiritual blindness removed. All will see the GWT that has always existed from the beginning of creation.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree."

The Trumpets sound for roll call after the Second Coming.

The 7th Trumpet will be the deciding point if Satan gets 42 months or not, and that is not the little season in Revelation 20. If there is no 42 month extension granted to time, then Satan is bound and there will never be a FP nor a beasts, nor an Armageddon. Time is up before that 42 months is even mentioned in Revelation 13. Those 42 months do not happen prior to the 7th Trumpet.

You all are looking for the AC or some "one world declaration" to sound to prepare for your "last day of time". That ain't going to happen. Satan is not going to be loosed prior to "your Second Coming". The Second Coming will have no warning. The only warning was the parable of the fig tree, and that happened in 1948. Either you will be prepared or not.

You are (once again) imposing your teaching on the sacred text. Where does it say: "The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years"? Nowhere! You are adding unto Scripture.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3:8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

There is no duration of time in between the promise and the fulfillment that has any bearing upon the plan of God, whether it is one day, one week, one year, or one thousand years. God is never late. His purpose cannot be thwarted. No one can curtail it. No one can delay it. It will happen right on time. Why is that? Because He calls the shots and He exists outside of time.

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, I am now Amil, and as you can see from my posts, i very much trust the Word of God. Are you Premil?

How do we determine the meaning and sense of symbols and numbers in Revelation? How do we determine what is literal and what is figurative? How do we know what is the correct interpretation?

When was there ever a time of peace on this earth with no wars, fighting, evil, sin and the lion/wolf lays side by side with the lamb ?

And when did Christ ever rule and reign from the Temple in Jerusalem and all the nations obeyed Him during His reign of peace ?

 

[WPM]

When was there ever a time of peace on this earth with no wars, fighting, evil, sin and the lion/wolf lays side by side with the lamb ?

And when did Christ ever rule and reign from the Temple in Jerusalem and all the nations obeyed Him during His reign of peace ?

Good question. There is a real deep meaningful peace to be enjoyed in "the last days." That only comes through knowing Christ and entering into the kingdom of God. But perfect peace as in where the lion and lamb sit down together only comes in the eternal state. It is only there that we are freed from all rebellion and conflict. It is only then that we are eternally separated from Satan and the wicked.

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Premils are always thinking natural, physical, temporal and carnal. Amils see the movement away from the Old Testament shadow, picture and type reality to the New Testament spiritual substance, reality and fulfilment. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. The natural man is captivated with the natural, the earthly and the temporal the heavenly man is captivated with the supernatural, the heavenly and the eternal.

The old temporal earthly kingdom of Israel was merely a type of the new spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom that Christ was going to introduce at His first Advent. The whole old covenant structure was always going to be superseded by a better system. As you get into the New Testament you quickly realise that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. The Old Testament was simply an imperfect type of the real.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ. It is spiritual. It pertains to the kingdom of God. It also relates to the last days – the days we are living in.

 

[Timtofly]

You are (once again) imposing your teaching on the scared text. Where does it say: "The Day of the Lord is as a thousand years"? Nowhere! You are adding unto Scripture.

You are totally missing the thrust. There it is absolutely nothing here to do with a future age, but time in the here-and-now. This text simply indicates the briefness of time with God. 2 Peter 3:8 does not in any way indicate a future earthly millennium kingdom anywhere in this reading. In fact, Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalm 93:2). This isn't rocket science. It is simple, accurate and contextual.

There is no duration of time in between the promise and the fulfillment that has any bearing upon the plan of God, whether it is one day, one week, one year, or one thousand years. God is never late. His purpose cannot be thwarted. No one can curtail it. No one can delay it. It will happen right on time. Why is that? Because He calls the shots and He exists outside of time.

Where in the text of 2 Peter 3 does it state God "sits in eternity"? This is you forcing your opinion onto the text.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

At least I am pointing out the actual text. God is longsuffering allowing humans to live apart from God for thousands of years. Or else God has been patient for 6 days.

I accept that God and Jesus can exist outside of creation in eternity. There is no time in eternity. Peter is not declaring there is no time. Peter is declaring God is longsuffering. You see the whole point through your added interpretation, and miss the whole point Peter is giving. And on top of that, Peter told us not to be ignorant about God's timing concerning His creation. Peter says nothing about being ignorant of God existing outside of creation.

Those scoffers do not even acknowledge the Cross nor that God has been dealing with humanity for thousands of years.

"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Obviously they overlooked the first coming of God to the earth.

So yes, to God it has only been two days since the Cross. Not sure why you deny God's perspective and talk about eternity where time does not matter, which was never mentioned by Peter in this chapter to begin with. Not even a "day" would be happening in eternity from God's perspective. Peter is not comparing nothing with something. Peter is comparing two related time frames.

 

[WPM]

Where in the text of 2 Peter 3 does it state God "sits in eternity"? This is you forcing your opinion onto the text.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

At least I am pointing out the actual text. God is longsuffering allowing humans to live apart from God for thousands of years. Or else God has been patient for 6 days.

I accept that God and Jesus can exist outside of creation in eternity. There is no time in eternity. Peter is not declaring there is no time. Peter is declaring God is longsuffering. You see the whole point through your added interpretation, and miss the whole point Peter is giving. And on top of that, Peter told us not to be ignorant about God's timing concerning His creation. Peter says nothing about being ignorant of God existing outside of creation.

Those scoffers do not even acknowledge the Cross nor that God has been dealing with humanity for thousands of years.

"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Obviously they overlooked the first coming of God to the earth.

So yes, to God it has only been two days since the Cross. Not sure why you deny God's perspective and talk about eternity where time does not matter, which was never mentioned by Peter in this chapter to begin with. Not even a "day" would be happening in eternity from God's perspective. Peter is not comparing nothing with something. Peter is comparing two related time frames.

Of course God is longsuffering. That is why He hasn't destroyed the wicked yet. This is the day of salvation. There is no other day of salvation in the future as you claim.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:10. This shows that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

 

[WPM]

Where in the text of 2 Peter 3 does it state God "sits in eternity"? This is you forcing your opinion onto the text.

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night."

At least I am pointing out the actual text. God is longsuffering allowing humans to live apart from God for thousands of years. Or else God has been patient for 6 days.

I accept that God and Jesus can exist outside of creation in eternity. There is no time in eternity. Peter is not declaring there is no time. Peter is declaring God is longsuffering. You see the whole point through your added interpretation, and miss the whole point Peter is giving. And on top of that, Peter told us not to be ignorant about God's timing concerning His creation. Peter says nothing about being ignorant of God existing outside of creation.

Those scoffers do not even acknowledge the Cross nor that God has been dealing with humanity for thousands of years.

"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

Obviously they overlooked the first coming of God to the earth.

So yes, to God it has only been two days since the Cross. Not sure why you deny God's perspective and talk about eternity where time does not matter, which was never mentioned by Peter in this chapter to begin with. Not even a "day" would be happening in eternity from God's perspective. Peter is not comparing nothing with something. Peter is comparing two related time frames.

The focus of this message is speaking about the sudden and unexpected destruction that the end-time-cynics experience upon Christ’s appearing. The teaching explains how these fools deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that have already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their only folly at His coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be punished for their scoffing. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ return and pours out His wrath upon them.

The sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return spells the end of the wicked and all wickedness. The scoffer will be caught unexpected when the day of the Lord overtakes him as a “thief in the night.” The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the ungodly and their scorn at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the deluded (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and uncover their ignorance.

 

[Timtofly]

Of course God is longsuffering. That is why He hasn't destroyed the wicked yet. This is the day of salvation. There is no other day of salvation in the future as you claim.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4 and 2 Timothy 2:10. This shows that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13, 28:19-20 and Act 3:19-21). At the end of this age (or literally, the consummation of the age), the time of God’s grace will finally be complete.

I never claimed "another day of salvation".

Part of the regeneration is cleaning up the mess after the Second Coming.

 

[WPM]

I never claimed "another day of salvation".

Part of the regeneration is cleaning up the mess after the Second Coming.

Your millennium is saturated in billions of satanists who rebel against Christ and surround His saints. For one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. It is eternal. It is not governed by time, as our age is. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns. You have billions of mortal wicked overrunning your future millennium. This will not happen!

 

[Timtofly]

Your millennium is saturated in billions of satanists who rebel against Christ and surround His saints. For one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. It is eternal. It is not governed by time, as our age is. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns. You have billions of mortal wicked overrunning your future millennium. This will not happen!

Nope! That is your millennium, not mine. Stop creating your own Bible that you keep quoting from, that no one else has access to.

Once again you have avoided to address any point I have made and you keep returning to your own version of "your Bible".

 

[WPM]

Nope! That is your millennium, not mine. Stop creating your own Bible that you keep quoting from, that no one else has access to.

Once again you have avoided to address any point I have made and you keep returning to your own version of "your Bible".

Who are Gog and Magog that rise up to rebel as the sand of the sea on your supposed new earth?

 

[Timtofly]

Who are Gog and Magog that rise up to rebel as the sand of the sea on your supposed new earth?

"Magog: a foreign nation. a land of the remote north; hence, in Revelation, of a people far remote from Palestine."

"Gog: the king of Magog."

From Strong's Greek.

From history Alexander the great kept Magog at bay and built a wall to prevent them from coming into his territory.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

So those people living the farthest away from Jerusalem and the camp of the saints in all directions from Jerusalem, north, east, south, and west. That is the "four quarters" as viewed on a map. Satan has his work cut out to travel the entire edge of the earth looking to decieve those in the remotest places on the earth.

Since the first generation started in and around Jerusalem, those at the farthest reaches would be the last few generations after a thousand years. As humans spread out across the earth to multiply and subdue the earth. That was the purpose of the sons of God from the 6th day forward.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

So we see in Revelation 20:9

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

They had to cross the breadth of the earth to get to the camp of the saints, singular. How do you get that the camp of the saints existed in every area on earth? That would not be going on the breadth of the earth. That would be marching up the street.

Logic dictates that the last few generations had the highest population count per generation, but not larger than the 20+ previous generations.

You ask: "where do they come from". The simple answer is their mom and dad. Obviously that is where every human comes from, and you did not even have to ask.

Your point is presumably: "why did they turn against society". They were deceived. Why did Eve turn against Adam and get him to disobey God? She was deceived by Satan. That was half of the population. Not even half of the population is deceived at the end. And certainly not any that had already lived for hundreds of years.

Unless you can present a case that Gog and Magog represent normal society, the symbolism used is that these people are seemingly foreign and remote from the central authority as symbolized by the "beloved city".

That does not necessarily imply nor specify they were ostracized from society nor that they were even antagonistic towards society. The point is being deceived, not pointing out a deep seated resentment as you propose.

 

[WPM]

"Magog: a foreign nation. a land of the remote north; hence, in Revelation, of a people far remote from Palestine."

"Gog: the king of Magog."

From Strong's Greek.

From history Alexander the great kept Magog at bay and built a wall to prevent them from coming into his territory.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

So those people living the farthest away from Jerusalem and the camp of the saints in all directions from Jerusalem, north, east, south, and west. That is the "four quarters" as viewed on a map. Satan has his work cut out to travel the entire edge of the earth looking to decieve those in the remotest places on the earth.

Since the first generation started in and around Jerusalem, those at the farthest reaches would be the last few generations after a thousand years. As humans spread out across the earth to multiply and subdue the earth. That was the purpose of the sons of God from the 6th day forward.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

So we see in Revelation 20:9

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city."

They had to cross the breadth of the earth to get to the camp of the saints, singular. How do you get that the camp of the saints existed in every area on earth? That would not be going on the breadth of the earth. That would be marching up the street.

Logic dictates that the last few generations had the highest population count per generation, but not larger than the 20+ previous generations.

You ask: "where do they come from". The simple answer is their mom and dad. Obviously that is where every human comes from, and you did not even have to ask.

Your point is presumably: "why did they turn against society". They were deceived. Why did Eve turn against Adam and get him to disobey God? She was deceived by Satan. That was half of the population. Not even half of the population is deceived at the end. And certainly not any that had already lived for hundreds of years.

Unless you can present a case that Gog and Magog represent normal society, the symbolism used is that these people are seemingly foreign and remote from the central authority as symbolized by the "beloved city".

That does not necessarily imply nor specify they were ostracized from society nor that they were even antagonistic towards society. The point is being deceived, not pointing out a deep seated resentment as you propose.

You are literalizing what is figurative and spiritualized what is figurative. You do not seem to take context into consideration in your theology. God and Magog represent the wicked. Babylon is used similar in Revelation. Jerusalem also (as Egypt and Sodom). We are looking at apocalyptic genre.

 

[WPM]

I am premil. This may or may not sound twilight zone, but Our God is the one who tells the end from the beginning, right?

So in order to decode Revelation we have to go to the OT in earnest and everything is sorta laid out as types and shadows of what is to come. I admit I havent studied Revelation for a while now. I'm in Exodus with Moses and Aaron.

It is all in there I would think. I'm aware that there is some debate about the Chronological order of Revelation and remember seeing a lot of symbolism in Revelation. The books of the Prophets decode some of revelation.

The only sensible and safe way to navigate through the book of Revelation is by using other clear Scripture to assist us dissect it. Without this we could easily get entangled in all the symbolism and make Revelation say whatever we want it to say.

The Reformers introduced a very solid interpretative system that was based on the crucial principle of supporting Scripture with Scripture. They used this to dismantle Roman Catholic heresy. They required corroborative evidence to support their opinion of any given text. This was to prevent error and to aid our understanding of truth.

Corroboration is said to be “evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition.”

Sound theologians have employed this important principle to avoid speculative interpretation and the damage of forcing a meaning on a text that contradicts repeated Scripture.

Anyone that is a student of this Book (and theology) will know the importance of this great demand. Anyone that has ever been involved in law will also know how essential it is in proving a fact.

Most Christians are aware of the crucial mandate of 2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

If one is to only look at one verse in a section of Scripture in isolation, without considering the actual context of that passage, and without contemplating the consistent teaching of the rest of Scripture on the same topic, you could totally misrepresent its intent.

When someone takes one Scripture and makes it contradicts numerous other Scripture you know that their understanding of that text is wrong.

Multiple related and relevant Scriptures exist to aid and determine the appropriate and accurate determination of any given truth and the establishment of context in regards to most major doctrines or pivotal prophetic events. Without their existence, exegesis becomes eisegesis, and accurate scriptural interpretation becomes bias private interpretation or wild speculation.

Rightly understanding the Bible requires exegesis (meaning: deriving out of Scripture), not eisegesis (meaning: reading into Scripture).

The problem we have today across the board when it comes to doctrine is: Christians try to force their taught theology into a text rather than letting the Scripture speak for itself.

 

[Timtofly]

You are literalizing what is figurative and spiritualized what is figurative. You do not seem to take context into consideration in your theology. God and Magog represent the wicked. Babylon is used similar in Revelation. Jerusalem also (as Egypt and Sodom). We are looking at apocalyptic genre.

What wicked? That is Strongs definition. So you are claiming Strongs is "literalizing the figurative, and spiritualized what is figurative" whatever that means, as you keep making up that excuse.

You are not taking context into consideration because your thousand years in not literal. If the Day of the Lord is actually thousands of years as you keep insisting, there will be hundreds of billions of perfect humans ripe to be deceieved by Satan. But no one is wicked. That is your own made up scenario.

After the Day of the Lord ends, those are literal people as symbolized by the symbolic terms Magog and Gog. Or do you think the humans are symbolic of dead people and the wicked are literally people come back from the dead in your scenario?

Gog and Magog represent those people in the remotest locations. As they are the last few generations, and who Satan targets with his deception. Obviously Satan does not attempt to deceive the camp of the saints. Even you don't take this as a literal nation of today. No one would believe you. They also don't symbolize "wicked sinners". That would be like you saying Russia is a group of "wicked sinners", and America is a group of "God's elect". That is not how symbolism works.

Yes, Egypt has symbolized the world. Babylon has symbolized a one world governmental system. Gog and Magog just symbolizes a foreign influence that gathers together other nations besides themselves for a purpose of war. All of humanity are born wicked sinners. That does not need to be symbolized by a national term. That is understood in Adam as mankind. One would not even use the term "Garden of Eden" as symbolizing "wicked sinners", even though that is where sin started, obviously because God would not let sin enter the Garden/Paradise. So why would you keep insisting that God would let sin, much less "wicked sinners" into the Day of the Lord?

How can a wicked person be deceived if the point is to turn that person into a wicked sinner?

Those humans are not even sinners until they break a law. Is there a Law of God that says: "Thou shalt not be deceived"?

"to gather them together to battle"

Is this symbolic or literal? Has the battle happened or about to happen? Does the battle ever happen at all?

Are we supposed to assume stuff and add it into the text like you do?

No where is Gog and Magog interpreted as "wicked sinners". Now if they were born wicked sinners, then yes. If they were not born wicked sinners, then no. The term has never implied "the wicked". The term has implied a foreign nation or those from remote parts of the earth.

The historical view was that Gog and Magog in ancient times used to reside in what is today part of modern day Turkey. But they were never considered people having a land nation but moved around as nomads migrating here and there. Even Abraham was considered one who kept moving from one area to another who never settled down, even though God promised him many nations would come from him with their own land they would form a nation on. Abraham was born a sinner. His nomadic lifestyle did not define him as a sinner.

Being deceived by Satan does not even make one a wicked sinner. Disobedience to God makes one a wicked sinner. Many Premil are wrong claiming wicked sinners are continually being born throughout the Millennium who need to be redeemed. But Satan would not have to even deceive wicked sinners, they are already deceived by Satan. Wicked sinners are the result of Satan deceiving Eve, which resulted in Adam to successfully choose to disobey God.

Adam and Eve were not wicked sinners prior to nor during this process of deception. Being a wicked sinner was the result of Adam disobeying God. After Adam ate is when physical and spiritual death happened and the offspring of Adam and Eve were "your wicked sinners" via birth. But no wicked sinners are ever mentioned in Revelation 20, because no wicked sinners were ever born during nor after the Day of the Lord. Those deceived by Satan were consumed by fire before they ever disobeyed God. No battle is mentioned as taking place. No one was recorded as dying because of a battle. This is not the battle of Armageddon.

Even at Armageddon it was not wicked sinners fighting wicked sinners. It was Jesus removing the last of Adam's dead offspring, who you would consider "wicked sinners". Those at Armageddon were defending Jerusalem and Satan's throne of authority for the last 42 months. They did not march across the breadth of the earth to do battle with the camp of the saints nor the beloved city. They were not consumed by fire. They were left as corpse for bird feed. The ones coming for battle were not deceived by Satan to do battle. The army was from Heaven led by Jesus as King taking back His throne from Satan. Where in Revelation 20 does it state Satan ruled the earth from Jerusalem, and he was gathering an army to fight Jesus coming from heaven? Jerusalem was being defended in both chapters, but you have the approaching armies the same, when in Revelation 19 is was totally opposite from Revelation 20.

It is you who symbolizes away what is literally happening on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Most Christians are aware of the crucial mandate of 2 Peter 1:20: “no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.”

Obviously this does not stop those from using the private man made "recapitulation theory" of interpretation.