Is Lying a Violation of the Ten Commandments? - No. - Well, maybe... ???

[MatthewG]

For discussion's sake, I'm going to say "Yes, lying violates the 9th commandment" because what I learned from Jesus in the Sermon on the mount (using the examples of the commandments prohibiting murder and adultery) is that the heart of the commandments is broader than the literal statement of the commandments.

Is that fair statement? @MatthewG, does that clarify what I was trying to say in #36?

(That's what I get for listening to Jesus.)

I guess it’s best not to lie to the spirit. Might end up dead.

 

[MatthewG]

Or lie to God…
@Lambano.

That is the foremost thing one could do,?

Be honest with oneself before God, and Man.

But would you ever lie to keep someone from harm? I face myself daily. As much as everyone else.

God works with you: isn’t that the point?

 

[BarneyFife]

The 9th Commandments reads:
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. - EXODUS 20:16 NIV

Giving false testimony is perjury specifically, not lying in general. ???

perjury /pûr′jə-rē/

noun​

1. The crime of willfully and knowingly making a false statement about a material fact while under oath.
2. An act of committing such a crime.
   "testimony full of perjuries."
3. False swearing.

So... Is Lying a Violation of the Ten Commandments? - No. - Well, maybe... ???

What if the perjury is not against your neighbor?

Furthermore, we are not under the law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

So, where does that leave us?


View attachment 42890

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This is a great topic, SS, and I can't wait to dig into it when I'm not sleepwalking - lol.

.

 

[Spyder]

OK, everyone see the worms now?

I am reminded of those who search tax law to see what loopholes that can be found. I think the Pharisees tried to close all the loopholes and it took a great many rules to accomplish that. The effect was to bring burdens too heavy to bear.

Yahweh gave commandments that were fairly specific - and as in this case; we can find a loophole regarding "bearing false witness against our neighbor" to see that lying is OK sometimes.

But, for some, in our search to be holy; checklists are used to see if we are "good enough." But, we do not need the Ten Commandments in order to see how we compare with our brothers and sisters, and Yahweh does not grade on a curve.

Word ARE important to God and Yeshua. (As usual, when the source documents use the name of God, I amend the English translation to reinsert it to keep His Name in sight.)

Ps 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in your sight, Yahweh, my rock and my redeemer.

I know that some get comfort in believing that our words mean nothing as long as our heart is good. Our problem may stem from our not knowing what our heart looks like to God. Our words reveal our hearts.

Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Matthew 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

Matthew 15:18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person.

Luke 6:45 The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks

I think the verse that is printed in a large bold print in my heart is:

Mt 10:32–33 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

I believe telling lies should be felt internally by all who claim to follow Yeshua.

 

[Wick Stick]

The disciples WERE breaking the Sabbath.

Technically, yes - they violated the letter of the law. But they didn't violate the intention behind the commandment - that is, to rest one day a week. That is the point here, isn't it? That the intention behind each statute is more important than the command itself.

Sabbath was introduced in Exodus chapter 16 with the Manna collection.
Food was to be put aside the day before to observe the Sabbath rest.
Confirmed by the fact that there was no Manna to collect on the seventh day.

Therefore the most BASIC violation of Sabbath rest is collecting food to eat on the Sabbath.
And Jesus implicates himself with his David and his companions example.

Sabbath was introduced in Babylon about a thousand years before Moses was born. The idea that nothing in THE LAW existed before Moses is... just... wrong.

That wasn't a law from God.

It is. The 4th commandment "honor your father and mother" is about financial support and retirement. "So that your days may be long upon the earth" isn't mystical - it's the end result of having a system in place for the support of the elderly.

The "You have heard it said... but I tell you" statements treat the law as hearsay.
He was replacing the law with his own, not honoring the law.

Not at all. He starts with "I'm not here to do away with the Law or the Prophets," and that sermon also includes "not a jot or tittle will pass away."

The term "the spirit of the law" is secular, not biblical. IMHO

You're right - the term is NOT Biblical. But that doesn't mean the idea isn't there.

 

[Wick Stick]

My intention is not to promote dishonesty, except on the part of
the church that misinformed us about the Ten Commandments.

Actually, I'm just getting started. (can you see where this is going?)

I don't see what you're angling towards, but I trust it's something. You always come up with the best topics.

Honestly, it's a little weird seeing you take a strict legal interpretation.

 

[marks]

Word ARE important to God and Yeshua. (As usual, when the source documents use the name of God, I amend the English translation to reinsert it to keep His Name in sight.)

Once I learned to start seeing YHWH when I read LORD, it made God more personal to me as I read His Book.

Much love!

 

[Jack]

Want me to summon Jack? I'm sure nothing would delight him more than to read Revelation 21:8 to you, the part about the fate of "all liars".

What really delights me is to pull 'Christians' from the fire and quoting Jesus!

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[ElieG12]

A true Christian does not lie under any circumstances.

There could be a situation in which it seems that lying is the only way out... Obviously, this is how all the temptations to which Christians are subjected work. Our human weaknesses and the evil spirits that surround us and this world controlled by the Devil will put pressure on us continually until the end (Matt. 24:13).

When I had to answer questions to obtain my American citizenship and clearly state that, as a Jehovah's Witness, I would not participate in any armed conflict for any reason, telling a lie was an option that would save me from awkward moments and not delay my approval. But in my mind I constantly repeated to myself that if I lied, becoming a citizen was not going to free me from the pain of having disobeyed God and having given in to the temptation to lie to achieve a uniquely human benefit. So I didn't lie. My approval took a lot longer because of that, but in the end I was approved... making every effort not to violate biblical principles and with the satisfaction of having resisted and being loyal to my God which surely made Him happy (Prov. 27:11).

What would you do when faced with the temptation to lie if your salary or job were at stake?

 

[lforrest]

[

Interesting how nearly everyone is hedging on this. Most are running scared. Why?
Your answer shows that you agree with me but will not say it plainly.

/

The 10 commandments is not the litmus test of what is evil. But it was what God deemed the most essential rules. They were like a minimum expectation.

Their purpose was mainly to see the survival of Israel in the land God was giving them. Some legal mechanism is in place to destroy totally corrupt societies, and these curtailed that until they got into idolatry.

The hardness of their hearts also played a part in these laws. limited compassion prevents knowing the heart of God. In place of that legalism was formed.

 

[St. SteVen]

I believe telling lies should be felt internally by all who claim to follow Yeshua.

Good post, thanks.
Again, I'm not promoting dishonesty, just making a point about what the
9th Commandment ACTUALLY says compared with the standard view,

In fact, it appears that lying is not addressed at all in the TCs. Curious thing.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

In fact, it appears that lying is not addressed at all in the TCs. Curious thing.

It's not that weird. Most governments don't have hard and fast laws against all lying.

In most places, John Stuart Mill's Harm Principle is followed - a person can do whatever he wants as long as his actions do not harm others. So unless a lie causes someone a demonstrable, measurable loss, there is nothing to prosecute. Legally.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's not that weird. Most governments don't have hard and fast laws against all lying.

In most places, John Stuart Mill's Harm Principle is followed - a person can do whatever he wants as long as his actions do not harm others. So unless a lie causes someone a demonstrable, measurable loss, there is nothing to prosecute. Legally.

That's interesting.
Does it apply to all of the TCs?

/

 

[Wick Stick]

That's interesting.
Does it apply to all of the TCs?

Definitely not.

Commandment 1 is "no other gods" - that's immediately invasive and not compatible with the idea of personal freedoms AT ALL.

 

[Wrangler]

The 9th Commandments reads:
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. - EXODUS 20:16 NIV

Giving false testimony is perjury specifically, not lying in general. ???

Correct. That’s why there is a Psalm that says God hates false witness AND lying. They are different things.

False witness tend to involve violating the commandment taking YHWH’s name in vain.

To swear to God what one is saying is true as they lie is a special kind of duplicity, breaking your covenant bond with men and God.

 

[St. SteVen]

Definitely not.

Commandment 1 is "no other gods" - that's immediately invasive and not compatible with the idea of personal freedoms AT ALL.

Perhaps the TCs should be banned due to the discriminatory nature of such religiously intolerant declarations? - LOL

/ @BarneyFife

 

[St. SteVen]

Technically, yes - they violated the letter of the law. But they didn't violate the intention behind the commandment - that is, to rest one day a week. That is the point here, isn't it? That the intention behind each statute is more important than the command itself.


Sabbath was introduced in Babylon about a thousand years before Moses was born. The idea that nothing in THE LAW existed before Moses is... just... wrong.


It is. The 4th commandment "honor your father and mother" is about financial support and retirement. "So that your days may be long upon the earth" isn't mystical - it's the end result of having a system in place for the support of the elderly.


Not at all. He starts with "I'm not here to do away with the Law or the Prophets," and that sermon also includes "not a jot or tittle will pass away."


You're right - the term is NOT Biblical. But that doesn't mean the idea isn't there.

Remarkable to me how different our views are on this.
And it reminded me of this.

Romans 5:13-14 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses,
even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,
who is a pattern of the one to come.

/

 

[Spyder]

Once I learned to start seeing YHWH when I read LORD, it made God more personal to me as I read His Book.

Much love!

BINGO!

 

[Lambano]

Again, I'm not promoting dishonesty, just making a point about what the
9th Commandment ACTUALLY says compared with the standard view,

I will concede that "bearing witness" does carry forensic connotations.

 

[BarneyFife]

Perhaps the TCs should be banned due to the discriminatory nature of such religiously intolerant declarations? - LOL

/ @BarneyFife

So, SS, my friend, you stir-stick, you.

You know I love to talk about God's commandments—any of them.

I know that makes me ripe for nomination for "Legalist Of The Year," but I guess I just have too many fond memories of studying Psalm 119 in Sunday School as a child (back when that was acceptable lesson material).

So, as with most commandments, I see the 9th in the broadest of terms, not looking to see how narrowly I can be found compliant but to what extent of God's glory I might exemplify it.

In order to keep a positive mental and emotional attitude about that, I have to consider how this commandment was designed to serve the purpose God indicates in Deuteronomy 5:29. IOW, how obeying this commandment is going to ensure "that it might be well with me, and with my children forever!"

The most basic route to this mindset for me is to consider what joy comes from the experience of trusting God to especially prosper me when telling the truth or refusing to perpetrate any kind of a falsehood that I might be tempted to see as the path of the best likely outcome in a given situation.

I have found this to be much like exercising a muscle. It reminds me of bodybuilders who exercise very hard for 15 to 20 or even more years and when they are older, it seems to take very little exercise to keep their muscles at a size and density considerably greater than that of average men.

One interesting (at least, to me) but likely uncommon biblical example here is in the book of Daniel, chapter 6.

Most would consider this a 1st commandment story, I suppose.

But wouldn't it have been, in a real enough sense, dishonest for Daniel to hide his regular prayer times from the view of others, departing from what was his custom, as is so strongly implied in verse 10?

And yet, for this open display of honesty, Daniel was honored in that den of lions to a degree that most of us see as virtually mythical.

From my own experience, I recall a time about 20 years ago or so when, while just having been laid off, I found myself in a multi-year, federal tax situation that was looking to cost me a bundle of money I certainly didn't have!

I was actually in a position that I could quite likely have waited until I was recalled or had found other work (I was highly employable but I liked my current employer) to resolve the matter.

But God convicted me that He would be pleased for me to settle it before Tax Day, so I set about the task and sent off the paperwork immediately.

About 2 months went by with no word from either my employer or The Tax Man.

I started looking for work.

Nothing

About a week later I got one of those multicolored checks with Lady Liberty on them for nearly $1000.

I thought surely it must be a mistake, but I didn't call about it because the IRS usually doesn't make mistakes—especially in favor of taxpayers.

I figured I'd wait a little while and that would be the end of it.

But the very next week another one came for roughly the same amount.

And the next week, another.

So now of course I had to call, but they simply explained the whole thing and validated the figures. It somehow never occurred to me that they'd send a separate check for each return.

I've got dozens of such stories. God really means what He says—even the good stuff.

While not all things are meant to be discoverable by all people at all times, generally speaking, honesty is truly the best policy.

So, really, for me it all comes down to an actually fun and exciting exercise of getting to see how wonderfully God is going to honor His Word.

I've spoken before about a spiritual and mental health counselor who actually uses the Ten Commandments in backwards order to do a quick and sneaky evaluation of his patient's conditions. It is quite a thing to behold, so much so that he was compelled to right a book about it.

The Ten Commandments as they read in Exodus 20 are somewhat crude expressions of larger principles that were intentionally and especially designed for our happiness.

I know this is a very unpopular view but I have found it to be well-proven in my own and many others' lives.

I'm so thankful to the Lord Jesus for them and for the power to obey them in the Spirit by the purchase of His precious blood.

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