BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Well, for starters, see this post from Big Troll's glaringly disingenuous thread: "Questions for Sabbatarians."
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Is Lying a Violation of the Ten Commandments? - No. - Well, maybe... ???
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Well, for starters, see this post from Big Troll's glaringly disingenuous thread: "Questions for Sabbatarians."
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Correct; agree, but if romanticizing the Ten Commandments is something that's disagreeable to you, my expanding on the 4th one doesn't seem like something that would be very friendly, especially in direct response to one of your posts.
I will rely on you.
Perhaps I just need to get my boxes in order!
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
Well, scripture does say that there will be no liars in Heaven. So there's that. But what about to an enemy? You have a home invasion and they have most of the family in the LR but see the pictures and dont see the daughter...
Where is your daughter? We want her.
Do you lie? I wouldnt hesitate to lie to the enemy in such a situation. But most of us do not have that type of struggles. A more common application would be....
At work? I struggled with this one. The company sends me out to make a repair and they have to be raked over the coals for price of parts (Or so the price list says!) Then the customer asks, how much was the part? Now I could quote list price and technically it would not be a lie. But I know darn well that, that is not what the customer is asking, list price. So it felt like a lie by omission to not quote actual wholesale price but to be misleading about it is what the company wants. So they don't appear to be gouging. I still knew I was lying and it frustrated me greatly. And at the same time, the company expected me to be very loyal to them. If a guy goes around giving up all the company secrets, a guy could lose his job! I didnt want that.
I worked at a company one time at the same time that they went to flat rate pricing. That was new to me so I was still getting used to it. And a customer asks me, how does flat rate work? and since I was still getting used to it, I told them everything I know, lol. It's based on $125 hr for labor and OMG on parts. They paid but were on the phone before I backed out of the driveway! I got quite the reception back at the office!
You dont tell people That! I didnt lose my job (my skills were high & they needed me, lol). But I knew I had to do something. Something so I do not lie anymore yet still make me able to be loyal to the company.
Over time, I realized that, I dont have to lie. When I went into business I spoke diplomat, a skill! I would charge people Flate Rate OR Time & Material, whichever they prefer. The advantage to flat rate repairs are knowing that the price is the price and nothing can drive the price higher and I finish the job anyway. If billed at Time & Material the advatage is, the price will probably be lower than the flat rate price. But unforeseen circumstances can and often do drive the price up.
So how's flat rate work?
Easy the price is the price and includes everything, labor and material. This is the price XXX.xx take it or leave it for time & material, it's your choice.
There. No lies. If they say hows flat rate break down...I dunno, I sign for parts my wife/secretary pays the suppliers, I can't remember everything. I'll bill you either way you want, here's the price up front, how do you want to proceed today?
And that's it. Still no lies. You dont have to lie. It is a skill to learn not to lie. An aquired skill. But it is possible. I'm not 100% but prolly 99%. Slow down, think before you speak. Speak Diplomat as they say.
I probably need to rephrase my question. Like this...
If you expand the 9th Commandment (re: perjury) to include all lying/dishonesty,
to what extent would you expand the 4th Commandment? (re: Sabbath)
Hopefully that is more clear. But, not sure how relevant the question is.
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Here is what you posted originally and the question I responded with.
Looks like you answered part one, but not part two. (I enlarged the questions below)
But I can see why you would feel that answering part one answered part two.
I found the bit quoted above to be pivotal in your understanding of the TCs
and wanted to explore your view a bit deeper.
Questions:
- Do you take this broad approach with all the Commandments?
- How all-encompassing do you see the 4th Commandment? (Sabbath)
LOLPerhaps I just need to get my boxes in order!
I hope that includes the Nothing Box. (aka Mark Gungor)
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Great post, thanks.
But just to be clear about this forum topic...
My point was not to justify dishonesty, but compare the actual wording of the 9th Commandment (re: perjury)
and compare it to what the church has told us. (re: lying) The cause of misunderstanding. IMHO
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It could be explained to a customer that parts pricing has a handling fee, because you have to maintain an account with the wholesaler. And in fact the retail price to them may be equal or higher, PLUS they would have FIND the CORRECT part and get it delivered to the work sight. So you saved them TIME, MONEY and HASSLE. No need for them to complain to you about that.
But just to be clear about this forum topic...
My point was not to justify dishonesty, but compare the actual wording of the 9th Commandment (re: perjury)
and compare it to what the church has told us. (re: lying) The cause of misunderstanding. IMHO
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Behold
Well-Known Member
And it says that there will be no fearful there, in the Kingdom.
Are you afraid of anything, Reader?
So, the context is always....... How the Law defines you, or How It can't anymore.
This means that if you are not born again, then all your sin is unresolved and you'll die in it, including the main one.. as that is to have died never born again, as a Christ rejector.. and Hell is waiting for those, and some died and found that out in the last 30 seconds.
So, ALL of that, is to be "under the law" and under God's wrath, which is eternal.
whereas......
If you are born again, then you are "Not under the law, but UNDER GRACE" and you can never again be defined by the Law or Commandments as a sinner.
This is why the NEW Covenant, defines the born again as a SAINT, and an Heir of God, and a Son/Daughter of God.
Now...Notice this verse.
"Where there is NO LAW.... there is no Transgression"...
What does that mean?
It means that when you are "not under the Law, but under GRACE" then Christ has become all your sin, and you have become "the Righteousness of God in Christ" as a "new Creation "In Christ".... "One with God"""... = And there is no sin found there because the Law is not found there, that can define you ever again as a SINNER.
"where there is NO LAW.... there is NO TRANSGRESSION">..
The born again, are """"""not under the LAW, but under GRACE."""""
"The Law came by MOSES... but GRACE AND TRUTH, came By JESUS The Christ".
The LAW is made for unbelievers, and initially for OT JEWS..... and its penultimate reason for existing is to show us all that we ALL have SINNED and we need to go to The Cross of Christ and find God's GRACE, that is our sanctification, our righteousness, and our eternal life.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Speaking of knee-jerk responses, I was tempted to use a loophole I unwittingly (or perhaps subconsciously) planted by using the following wording:
"So, as with MOST commandments, I see the 9th in the broadest of terms..."
But I thought better of it.
Because I do think of the 4th in very broad terms as well but not, I suspect, in the way you were probably trying to trap me, you rascal, you.
And to pretend otherwise would be, in a somewhat similarly broad sense, playing fast-and-loose with the 9th, which would ethically bar me from this discussion - lol.
So I'll try to be brief to avoid derailing your very nice thread, if that ship hasn't already long ago sailed.
The Sabbath is about rest.
And who, today, especially in the more "developed" nations, couldn't use a little more rest?
And, with rest, comes PEACE. And who in the entire world couldn't use a lot more of that?!! This is why I've often talked about high-performance Sabbath-keeping as being so much like Christmas to a child ("And on Earth, peace, good will toward men")
In other broader aspects, the 4th commandment reminds me of how important every form of rest that's built into our DNA, so to speak, is to our physical, mental, and most importantly, spiritual health.
Just try going without sleep every day except for the 7th and see how well that goes, am I right?
It gets down to very fine points like avoiding unnecessary and combating necessary oxidative stress that causes our bodies to limit production of pineal and intracellular melatonin which is now known to be the most powerful antioxidant in existence.
Without adequate rest we can't have molecular regeneration, which is the opposite of aging.
Now, people could drive themselves crazy trying to make sure they're doing everything possible to keep from aging prematurely.
And that's why there's the rest we have in Jesus, Praise God!
Because, as much as it opens me up for flanking attacks, an unhealthy obsession with "rest" could get to be very hard WORK.
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I am SO busted. - LOLBecause I do think of the 4th in very broad terms as well but not, I suspect, in the way you were probably trying to trap me, you rascal, you.
Here's what I was thinking.
I can see how taking a broad view of the 9th Commandment (re: perjury) by not lying would also cover perjury.
Perjury, after all, is a subset of lying. cc: @Bob Estey
However, it seems to me that taking the broad view of the 4th Commandment (re: Sabbath) by getting
enough rest doesn't really cover the Sabbath Commandment requirements.
Does that make sense? And... does the day matter?
I would expect that it does. And rightfully so. But... you tell me.
Not my place to tell you how it should be done.
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Bill Judson
Member
You shall not give false testimony (Matthew 19:16-21)
Jesus said telling lies is not acceptable to the Lord whether it's against some guy living next door or anybody else.
Revelation 22:15 - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
We would do really well to accept what the Lord says about lying and quit questioning His Word.
Why aren't questions allowed?
"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed
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Bill Judson
Member
When God says a particular thing is Truth in His Word, why question Him as though what He said is not true?
That's exactly what the devil does.
God has very clearly spoken in His Word telling us that lying is not acceptable to Him.
Thoughts questioning whether what God said is true or not come evil spirits.
This is exactly what the devil did in the Garden of Eden questioning whether God was telling the Truth or not.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
The Ten Commandments say we can't bear false witness against our neighbors. They say nothing about lying or perjury.
Behold
Well-Known Member
When you take your worries to bed with you, then cortisol is going to be dumped into your system, to some degree.
Cortisol is the enemy of rest, sleep, peace and Youthfulness . It'll age you.
So, if the Reader is "over 45" you need to take these.
1.) Good water, and not tap water. Drink bottled water and plenty of it. And if you've had kidney stones in the past, then this will become less of an issue or a zero issue, once you keep yourself hydrated.
Then get your D3 and your good Magnesium and your CoQ10.
And if you take a Multi-V, then find one that is plant or fruit based.
And if you take additional VIT C, then get one that is not "ascorbic" only.. Find one that is coming from a food vs a Chinese chemical factory.
And about "food".. Well, if its white, then its not the best thing for you.. And if it has Hydrogenated oil in it then its not good for you at all.
Avoid "high fructose corn syrup".
Do you love chocolate? Then eat dark chocolate and try to go above 70% "cacao". (it'll tell you on the bag or box or wrapper).
Above 80% is even better for you.
Read the bag, the can, the box. and find out what you are eating as maybe you are eating "bad stuff".
Find out what is in that food that is coming from that can, box, or bag.
If you are depressed a lot and feel that "life has very little meaning" then this can be a spiritual issue, but it also can be a Vit B issue.
Your '"B's" may be too low for too long and that makes you FEEL depressed.
If that is you, then find a Mulit Vitamin that has a lot of "B"s in it, especially B6 and B1.
And if you want the fountain of youth, then join a Gym and go 3 times a week, from now on.
This will completely make you younger, greatly help you to sleep better and it'll dial back that stress, a lot.
It'll literally change your life for the better., if you will stick with it.
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Bearing false witness is perjury.
It specifically means that you are lying to an authority about someone in order to use the justice system against them.
In Bible times a matter was established by the testimony of three witnesses. (Deuteronomy 17:6; Hebrews 10:28)
Here's the dictionary definition.
perjury /pûr′jə-rē/
noun
- The crime of willfully and knowingly making a false statement about a material fact while under oath.
- An act of committing such a crime.
"testimony full of perjuries." - False swearing.
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What does this mean then?:
Revelation 21:8 But to the cowardly and unbelieving and ...
King James Bible. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.There are some 53 (to date) commandments spelled out in scriptures.... .found.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
If a five-year-old shows you a picture she painted, and it looks awful, and she asks you, "How does it look?" I don't think you're going to go to hell if you say, "Not bad."
Random additional thoughts: "False testimony" certainly suggests, if not a formal court proceeding, at least some formal situation with objective consequences. It also suggests to me that the commandment is talking about something that is objectively true or false.
If I steal my neighbor's lawn mower and am asked if I stole it, to answer "No" surely violates the commandment regardless of whether my neighbor, a police officer or a prosecuting attorney is asking the question and whether I am formally under oath. I did steal it, so my "No" answer is objectively false.
If my wife asks "Does this dress make me look fat?", this is an informal situation with no particular objective consequences and the answer is a matter of opinion. I don't see "No, dear, you look lovely" as even being within the scope of the commandment. As I said above, I think almost all such situations can be handled with the emphasis on mercy and compassion rather than concern about the commandment.
In the example with the repair part, if the customer wants the wholesale price then to misrepresent the retail price as the wholesale seemingly would violate the commandment. To say, "Sorry, all I can give you is the list price but you can discuss it with the owner" would seem to be the better answer. I know as a lawyer our own staff were sometimes aghast at our "absurd" hourly fees since it never occurred to them those fees were paying for the building, all salaries, all utilities, all supplies and everything else associated with a law office. Yes, Ms. Secretary, we pay you $20 an hour and charge clients $300 for our time, but it's apples and oranges. Our time is the only product we offer; your time is overhead.
If I steal my neighbor's lawn mower and am asked if I stole it, to answer "No" surely violates the commandment regardless of whether my neighbor, a police officer or a prosecuting attorney is asking the question and whether I am formally under oath. I did steal it, so my "No" answer is objectively false.
If my wife asks "Does this dress make me look fat?", this is an informal situation with no particular objective consequences and the answer is a matter of opinion. I don't see "No, dear, you look lovely" as even being within the scope of the commandment. As I said above, I think almost all such situations can be handled with the emphasis on mercy and compassion rather than concern about the commandment.
In the example with the repair part, if the customer wants the wholesale price then to misrepresent the retail price as the wholesale seemingly would violate the commandment. To say, "Sorry, all I can give you is the list price but you can discuss it with the owner" would seem to be the better answer. I know as a lawyer our own staff were sometimes aghast at our "absurd" hourly fees since it never occurred to them those fees were paying for the building, all salaries, all utilities, all supplies and everything else associated with a law office. Yes, Ms. Secretary, we pay you $20 an hour and charge clients $300 for our time, but it's apples and oranges. Our time is the only product we offer; your time is overhead.
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