Are you serious? These millennial phonies do not sin? Where does it teach that in Rev 20? Premils add so much unto the inspired text to force their square teaching in to a round hole, but it does not fit. It is extra-biblical. I will not hold my breath waiting for evidence to support your speculations. Your imagined millennium full of religious phonies blows up in your face at the end.
WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE
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Why do some interpreters appear to have reading comprehension at times, or that are unable to properly connect dots?
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
To create something, what does that generally mean? Does it not mean to make something new? Look what verse 18 says---But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create---obviously in regards to this---for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
That verse says to be glad and rejoice for ever. How can someone then be expected to do that forever in regards to something that is not even meaning forever if the Jerusalem meant here is not meaning the everlasting NJ?
Also note what else it says here in regards to this Jerusalem meant-- and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Now compare that to this in Revelation 21 in regards to Jerusalem in that chapter.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying , neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying(Isaiah 65:19)---And God shall wipe away all tears--and there shall be no more--crying(Revelation 21:4)
And we are to then be so naive to believe that Isaiah 65:19 happens first, then Revelation 21:4 happens at a much later time? If there is already no more crying per what Isaiah 65:19 records, where then are these tears coming from per Revelation 21:4 that God still needs to wipe away yet again in order that there will yet again be no more crying in this Jerusalem?
As if Amil doesn't equally have a problem themselves in regards to these billions after the millennium, their status during the millennium. If they are already deceived during the millennium, why do they also need to be deceived after the millennium? Not only that, if they are deceived during the millennium, who deceived them since Amil has both satan and the beast in the pit during the millennium?
But instead, if they are not deceived during the millennium, that can only mean one thing in this case, per this scenario. That they are among the saved. You then have the saved surrounding the saved after the millennium.
So, in your reasoning, if somebody is already deceived, they cannot be deceived again? That is total nonsense! You know it! The release of Satan is simply the removal of the restraint upon man came to do evil. This correlates with 2 Thessalonians 2. There is going to be a collective delusion on the end-time generation. The Gospel is going to be curtailed before Jesus comes. That is what Revelation 20 tells us.
After reading your reply here, I'm still not certain if we are on the same page in regards to some of this? Clearly, we are not on the same page in regards to a lot things, but are we at least on the same page in regards to some of these things? That is the question.
What I'm trying to get resolved here first, before one can insist that this and that doesn't add up per Premil, is this. When does the NJ come down from God out of heaven in relation to the great white throne judgment? Does it come down before or after?
If we consider what all I submitted per Revelation 19 and Revelation 21:9-10, it appears to me that the NJ comes down before not after the time of the GWTJ. And if that can be true, why can't it also be true that that the thousand years don't precede the NJ after all, they instead involve the NJ?
It is silly enough per Premil, though I don't hold this view myself, that there is a thousand year gap between what is recorded in Revelation 19 and Revelation 21:9-10. It's equally silly per Amil since Amil too apparently has Revelation 21:9-10 not meaning until after the GWTJ even though Revelation 19 already records that the bride descends prior to the GWTJ and that Revelation 21:9-10 too is involving the bride descending. Per Premil and Amil then, we have the bride descending twice at two different times since both views insist that the NJ doesn't come down until after the GWTJ. Keeping in mind that both Revelation 19 and Revelation 21:9-10 involve the bride of Christ descending out of heaven from God.
Where does Revelation 20 say that the gospel is going to be curtailed before Jesus comes?
It's not there. You've inserted it into Revelation 20 so as to get Revelation 20 to comply with what you believe it "must be" saying.
YES. Revelation 19 - the bride of Christ, following Him on white horses in verse 14, and Revelation 21 talking about the same bride:-
"Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Stop! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself. And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Rev.19:7-14.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God." Rev.21:9-10
It's the same angel who showed John the judgment of Babylon the Great:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters." Rev.17:1
"Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Stop! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war. And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself. And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." Rev.19:7-14.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of Heaven from God." Rev.21:9-10
It's the same angel who showed John the judgment of Babylon the Great:
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters." Rev.17:1
THE TRUE SAYINGS OF GOD:
AND JOHN FALLS DOWN TO WORSHIP THE ANGEL SHOWING HIM THESE THINGS:
AND JOHN FALLS DOWN TO WORSHIP THE ANGEL SHOWING HIM THESE THINGS:
"And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, Stop! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev.19:9-10.
"And he said to me, These sayings are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show to His servants the things which must shortly be done. Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this Book. And I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things. Then he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those who keep the sayings of this Book. Do worship to God." Rev.22:6-9
The chapter and verse divisions that were added to the Bible in 1227 A.D are good for reference purposes, but they certainly have confused the interpretation a great deal, because they quite evidently cause the saints instead of looking only for the common themes in the text, to look at the chapter divisions also, and so they imagine John is writing about different things when in fact he is writing about things to take place immediately preceding the return of Christ, and what will take place afterwards. Revelation chapters 6-11 and chapters 13-19 are all telling us about what will take place immediately before the return of Christ.
The bride of Christ is coming down with Christ in Revelation 19, and this is repeated in Revelation 21:1 through Revelation 22:15. It's all talking about the same thing.
Revelation 20 is telling us about a thousand year reign of saints with Christ in the NHNE, and it's a repeat of what happened in the Garden of Eden:
God's creation ⇾ Christ makes all things new.
Perfectly good ⇾ Only righteousness dwells in it.
Tree of life ⇾ Tree of life.
Adam given dominion ⇾ Last Adam given dominion.
Satan's deception ⇾ Satan's deception.
Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden ⇾ Second death. Lake of fire.
All the above things are mentioned in the first three and the last three chapters of the Bible,
but there will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.
It's this that prevents 21st-century Christians from understanding the close of the millennium in the NHNE:
In order to possess immortality in himself, a human being needs to have eternal life in himself. Scripture tells us that Christ Jesus alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), and that He alone has eternal life in Himself (John 5:26). Our immortality | eternal life is IN HIM (1 John 5:11; John 1:4).
Adam and Eve were eating freely of the tree of life and living forever. They were immortal.
Then God permitted Satan to deceive mankind.
Adam and Eve believed the lie which said: "You will not surely die", and sinned.
It was the first death, and it spread to all men, because all sinned.
Jesus the Son of God and Son of man, who is also called the last Adam IS the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). Eternal life is in Him (1 John 5:11; John 1:4), whom scripture tells us alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) and alone has eternal life in Himself (John 5:26).
The Revelation of Jesus Christ says that there will be a second death.
So as per your previous post to @WPM , I believe that YES INDEED, it will be redeemed, resurrected saints who, believing they cannot die the second death because they are immortal, will be deceived by Satan - and fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them when THEY surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. Their names will be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life, and at the GWT they will suffer the same fate as "the rest of the dead who did not live again until the thousand years were finished".
"The sea" contains only the dead after Christ's return. The bride of Christ does not exist in "the sea". There will be no more death, nor pain, nor any curse for the bride of Christ, but some will have their names blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life - by Christ.
The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. Rev.2:11.
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This has me thinking about something. Just pondering here is all. In the past, maybe not on this board, I have noted some Amils saying that if Premil is true they want no part of it, period. Even though I haven't heard every single Amil say that, it wouldn't surprise me if that is their mindset on that as well, that if Premil is true, they want no part of it. Maybe they might get their wish if Premil is true and that there is something to what you are saying here though I currently tend to see it differently.
If Premil ends up being true, thus proved true when Christ returns, and that one wants no part of it even if it is true, that adds up to that they want no part of God's plan, and that unless what God has planned for the future fits their way of thinking, fit how they have interpreted things, thanks, but no thanks. Then they get their wish once satan is loosed. While I OTOH, even though I believe Premil to be the correct postion rather than Amil, I'm certainly not going to be disappointed nor not want no part of it if it turns out that Amil is the correct position in the end instead.
Satan is bound from deceiving the ethnos (or Gentiles) no more. This spoke of the enlightenment of the nations through the Gospel. After the thousand years he is able to deceive the ethnos (or Gentiles) again. There is a correlation between both. The antithesis of the enlightening is the blinding. He will curtail the great commission.
Christ manifested His kingship over the kingdom of God by stripping Satan of his previous power and influence to control the nations, by invading his kingdom (the nations) and by enlightening/liberating the darkened Gentiles. This was predicted numerous times by the Old Testament prophets, Christ and the New Testament writers. It was the time to shine a light on the ignorant, bound and blind. The free-spread of the Gospel to all nations will be curtailed at the end by the unbinding of Satan, as he is released from his spiritual restraint.
Who writes your script? When have any of us said that? You seem to make this up as you go. I could say the same about Premils, but it would be extremely unfair. Every poster here has a passion for what they believe and are entitled to have that. That does not mean they are going to miss out on the future blessing, if their view is proved wrong.
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TribulationSigns
Active Member
Apparently then, the thousand years, if it allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must have ended the same day it began, the fact the past 2000 years, if comparing to reality, fit nations being deceived to a T, not the opposite instead.
TribulationSigns
Active Member
In Scripture, the number 10 (or 100 and 1,000) signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. God did not refer to literally one thousand years in this context. Satan was bound for the fullness of the period of time until the church was fully built, however long it takes. This means that Satan was bound UNTIL the last Elect has been secured. THEN, the testimony of Two Witnesses for the purpose of salvation will end and Satan will be loosened again to deceive those in the congregation who have not yet been sealed by God, as indicated in Revelation 9:3-6. The millennial kingdom which Christians were empowered since Pentecost to preach the Gospel to the world lasted longer than a literal 1,000 years.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I'm not falling for this.
We should have a Bible study on the book of Deuteronomy.
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Take what I have underlined in Matthew 7, for instance. If the thousand years are pertaining to this age, there would be nothing different about what these are doing after the thousand years that they are already doing during the thousand years. If they are false prophets in sheep's clothing, for example, I don't see it making sense that this is not what they are during the millennium but only become this after the millennium. IOW, nothing about them would be any different during the millennium and after the millennium. That assuming the millennium is pertaining to the here and now.
IMO, you deceive someone not already deceived, not someone already deceived since the latter is an overkill, so to speak.
And that Amil can't reasonably explain these in Revelation 20:8, what their status is during the millennium and why it changes after the millennium. So I suggested that if they are not deceived during the millennium they would have to be among the saved, then after the millennium they fall away. Except when I proposed that as a possibility to other Amils in the past, none of them even wanted to entertain the idea, it even gave one Amil a literal headache at the thought of something like that being a possibility.
And this particular Amil even agrees that the Bible teaches not once saved always saved, yet he couldn't even get on board with what I was proposing as a possibility, and all I was trying to do was make sense out of these in Revelation 20:8 if Amil is true, since they would have a role to play, so to speak, during the millennium, if they are here after the millennium. It's not like they just pop out of nowhere all of a sudden after the millennium, thus weren't relevant during the millennium, but now all of a sudden like, they become relevant after the millennium, though.
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I believe time, symbolized a thousand years is given to the universal Church to spiritually build the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. When one is born again through the Spirit of Christ within, they have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not an ethnic people called Israel of Old, we are a spiritual people called "Israel of God." In this age of time, as the Israel of God we live and reign with Christ while living on this earth until our natural body of flesh breathes its last. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, this time, symbolized a thousand years will expire when the last trumpet begins to sound that this time for spiritually building the Kingdom of God shall be no longer.
When the Kingdom of God is complete, at the end of a thousand symbolic years, Satan will be loosed for a little season. This won't be a time for building. It will be a time for Satan and ALL who follow after him to be exposed as they spiritually encompass the saints of God who are the beloved city/people/Israel of God still alive on this earth during Satan's little season. The saints alive on this earth then will be called up to meet the Lord in the air and fire from God out of heaven shall devour Satan and his minions left behind. After this and the GWTJ there will be a new heaven and new earth for this first heaven and earth shall have passed away.
This is reading your doctrine into the Bible. Because nowhere does the Bible tell us that Israel of old shall carefully observe the commandments of the Lord after Jesus returns to rule over them for a literal one thousand years.
The holy city new Jerusalem is a spiritual abode in which all who have faith in Christ enter when we are born again of the Spirit within us. Whosoever lives and believes in Christ has come unto mount Sion, unto the city of God, the heavenly Jerusalem (((SPIRITUALLY))), and we are the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, through Christ Jesus our Mediator of the New Covenant which is far better than the Covenant of old, that you appear to want to return to.
Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
We enter into New Jerusalem during this age of time, symbolized a thousand years. Not for one thousand literal years, but FOREVER! For the Kingdom of God is not now of this earth, and cannot be seen with physical sight, and the only entrance into the Kingdom of God "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN"! Because His Kingdom is not now physical, but a spiritual Kingdom where we worship and serve our Lord day and night in spirit and in truth.
Just because all who are in unbelief and blaspheme the name of the Lord does not mean His name needs to be vindicated before them! It won't be to vindicate Himself before the reprobate that His power and Majesty shall be known by all. We shall all know Him when He comes again not to vindicate Himself, because all that He does is for good and His own glory. Why would He need to vindicate Himself before unbelievers? You think they will not know and feel His power when He casts them into the lake of fire that is the second death?
There is only one Judgment Day, and those you and David think are unprofitable believers makes ZERO sense! We are either believers or unbelievers! And the sheep are counted as the faithful saints of Christ who shall receive their reward, while the goats are counted as professing Christ, but are in FACT unbelievers (unprofitable servants) who think their good works shall save them. That's why they are called "unprofitable" servants and are not numbered with the true servants of Christ who in life did what was the will of the Lord.
But it makes sense though, take Cain, for instance, that he too answered Jesus like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Or let's even insert an atheist here, for example. That this atheiest too answered Jesus in like manner----Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Some of you apparently have no clue as to how context is supposed to work. Not to mention, where in Revelation 20:11-15 does it ever give the impression that those standing before God at that judgment are being divided into 2 groups, the sheep on the right, the goats on the left? I thought you didn't even believe the sheep will be at that judgment being judged? Clearly, the sheep are among those being judged in Matthew 25, though. How are you going to talk your way out of that contradiction if your position is that the sheep aren't among those being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 while insisting that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, these are the same judgment?
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We all know where a thousand years in Scripture is found. Let me turn the question to you, where, book, chapter and verse do you find "a thousand years" literally represents ONE thousand years? It cannot be proven that "a" thousand years equates to exactly ONE thousand physical years of time given this earth.
Also how do you explain how the martyred saints of Rev 20 lived and reigned a thousand years with Christ before they were killed for their faith, but also have others not listed with the martyred souls who shall also reign with Christ a thousand years? IOW how is a thousand years literally ONE thousand physical years yet past for the martyred souls and still future for those who shall be called "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"?????
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