WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[CadyandZoe]

The thousand years equate to time! Time given this earth for building new Jerusalem that is now located in heaven.

According to the Bible, the thousand years is the time when Jesus and his apostles reign over Israel. The prophets refer to this time as the rebuilding of Israel or the restoration of Israel or the reversal of Israel's fortune. According to Deuteronomy, God will bring on Israel both curses and and blessings -- in that order. First God will bring curses on Israel. Then, many years later during a great reversal of fortune, God will bring blessings on Israel.

For instance, one of the blessings is this:

Deuteronomy 28:13 The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,​

​

When will they "observe them carefully"? When Jesus returns to rule over them for a thousand years.

New Jerusalem is the abode of God and where the spiritual body of Christ dwells after our natural,

The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven as you say. Thus, "The Thousand-Years" is NOT the New Jerusalem.

Why would you believe God's name must be vindicated?

Because he says so.

In ancient times, the world did not know or understand the concept of monotheism. For the most part, the entire world was polytheistic. The world believed that many gods existed and that the gods had a leader. The chief of the gods was called, "God Almighty." The OT prophets announced that Yahweh was El Shaddai or God Almighty. Among the pantheon of gods in the world, Yahweh is El Shaddai -- the leader of all the gods. To say that Yahweh was NOT El Shaddai -- God Almighty was blaspheme.

Sometime in Israel's history, God sent Israel into exile for her disobedience. According to God, this was punishment for disobedience. But, according to the world, this proved that Yahweh was NOT El Shaddai -- God Almighty. He was weaker and more inferior than some of the other Gods. In their thinking, if Babylon was able to take Judah into Babylon by force, this meant that Babylon's god was stronger than Israel's god.

In other words, because Israel was disobedient and God punished her, God's name was blasphemed among the Gentiles because of them. The prophets record God's word concerning his name in various places.

Isaiah 52:4-6 For thus says the Lord God, “My people went down at the first into Egypt to reside there; then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what do I have here,” declares the Lord, “seeing that My people have been taken away without cause?” Again the Lord declares, “Those who rule over them howl, and My name is continually blasphemed all day long. Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, ‘Here I am.’”

Speaking about the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders Paul writes:

Romans 2:24-25 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written. For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

Paul quotes both Isaiah 52 and Ezekiel 36.

Ezekiel 36:20-23 When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’ But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.

Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

When does God prove himself holy among Israel in sight of the Gentile nations? During the Thousand Years.

 

[Timtofly]

Presumably then, the dead were raised prior to the nullification of the heavens and the earth.

There is no presumption. John states exactly where and when things happen.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Sticking with the car analogy as the dead, and the 2 garages for the dead, sheol and death. Heaven and earth no longer existed, but we have two garages left that do exist, sheol and death. I would say that death holds those dead no longer named in the Lamb's book of life. People born during the day of the Lord, will die because of disobedience. They will know that disobedience is the end, they will be dead, with no redemption. They will be placed in death, because during the Day of the Lord disobedience is abnormal, not normal. Those in sheol just plain rejected God, but God has not rejected them. For the most part God was never a normal knowledge for them, but sin and death stood between them and God. In the Day of the Lord, that is reversed. There is no sin and death to blind people. People will be born with the knowledge of God and not the blindness of sin and death.

So when heaven and earth pass, and only the GWT remains, so will the 2 garages of sheol and death. Then the dead will be emptied out of both garages and the garages will be cast into the LOF. The dead who are not named in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into the LOF. But there is the possibility that some will be granted eternal life out of sheol, until the decision is made by them to be removed from the Lamb's book of life or remain. God will still not force them either way.

John never said the rest of the dead will all live again after the 1,000 years. John wrote they will not live again, until.... There is no guarantee second chance at life. There is a possibility one may change their mind. But like most posters here, changing one's mind does not come easy, and probably even less so after thousands of years of torment in sheol.

It would seem consistent to say that souls existed in sheol, and will continue to exist with one's spirit as well in the LOF. Now will they have a body as well is not stated. The FP and the beast were physically cast into the LOF. So having a physical body is possible. But it should never be referred to as eternal life, but the eternal body of sin and corruption. Obviously the LOF is more than just a repository of souls, as that was what sheol and death were for. I doubt God is going to advertise all the excellent amenities available in the LOF. It is not a vacation nor tourist destination.

 

[Zao is life]

No, they have both in the correct place. Doctrines like Amill started with a falsehood that grew and grew. You have your own falsehood, that the NHNE starts when the Millennium does. All of Rev 20 takes place before Rev 21-22. Sea, death, sorrow fear and pain exist during and after the Millennium but none exist in the NHNE. satan does not exist in the NHNE but you teach he does.

I think the words of Christ Himself negate what you assert. After introducing Himself He speaks seven times to those who overcome, promising them things like the following:-

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 3:5-6
The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:5-6).

Jesus says nothing after His messages to the seven churches until this:

Revelation 16:15-17
"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. --- And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air. --- And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, --- It is done! "---

Then:

Revelation 21:5-8
"And He sitting on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me, --- It is done ---. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Those who are clothed in white clothing (Revelation 3:5) whose names Jesus promised He "will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life" are mentioned in Revelation 19 following Christ on white horses when He comes to judge the beast, and they are mentioned as being invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.

John sees the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband in the New heavens and new earth.

Revelation 20 is describing those who had overcome reigning with Christ a thousand years:

"And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Rev.2:26-29).
​

There is nothing to suggest that Jesus is talking to two different groups of over-comers living in different times in His Revelation to His churches - it's all one and the same group of over-comers. From the fist message to the seventh message to the churches:-

1. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
(Rev.2:7)

2. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death. (Rev.2:11)

3. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knows except he who receives it.
(Rev.2:17)
​

4. And he who overcomes and keeps My works to the end, to him I will give power over the nations. And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of a potter they will be broken to pieces, even as I received from My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

(Rev.2:26-29).

5. The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:5-6).

6. Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:12-13).

7. I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me. To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:18-22).

There is no thousand year gap in-between the return of Christ and the inheritance of the promises - all the promises - made to those who overcome, and the bride of Christ is a.k.a New Jerusalem and New Jerusalem is a.k.a the bride of Christ in Revelation 3:12-13 (# 6 above). They are those who are seen following Him on white horses when He comes in judgment of the beast in Revelation 19. They are also those who came out from great tribulation in Revelation 7.

These are only some of the problems with your assertion, which you base solely on the mention in Revelation 21:1-4 of the sea and death not existing anymore - while flatly ignoring all the facts that negate your view - some of which @Davidpt has also mentioned.

The only way your assertion can work is if there are two groups of over-comers being spoken to by Christ in all the above verses - one existing at the close of the current age + another one existing at the close of the thousand years.

Jesus' message to the over-comers in His churches is all one and the same set of promises which they are promised will all be inherited at one and the same time - when He returns.​

 

[Zao is life]

No one should place sin being on the earth when Satan is released. No one is ever said to disobey. It is said they are deceived.

Adam got the commandment directly from God. Adam knew exactly what God had said. It ended with the words "dying you will die".

Knowing that the words "you will not surely die" were making the Word of God out to be a lie, Adam did the exact opposite to what God had commanded, though Adam knew exactly what God said.

It was open rebellion. The words "you will be like God" (the promise that Adam would be able to make himself like the Most High) is a clue as to the motive for Adam's open rebellion against God.

It was sin. Open rebellion against God. Adam knew exactly what he was doing, and he knew it was wrong.

 

[Zao is life]

Your approach to these passages has a major disadvantage in this respect. You treat the account as if it were a news report rather than what it is—prophecy.

You're speaking from such a profoundly disingenuous false accusation that at this point I see no point in even answering.

 

[Zao is life]

Being a professed servant of Christ according to the good deeds we do in life, is not the same as being a true servant of Christ that looks to Him, knowing that it is our duty to do good deeds and apart from God working in us all our deeds are but filthy rags. Believers don't look for rewards for doing good, they thank Christ, knowing our good deeds are the result of God working in us to do of His good pleasure.

Which has nothing to do with the sheep and goats judgment, and nothing to do with what @Davidpt means when speaking in the context of the sheep and goats judgment, he speaks of profitable and unprofitable believers. I think you realize that?

 

[Zao is life]

David, the eternal fate for the goats shall be "everlasting punishment". There won't be one thousand more years of time given them to become part with the sheep after Christ comes again

If only you would stop with the above instead of with your your guesswork regarding one verse in the entire New Testament appearing in Revelation 10, which you express once again below:

and time shall be no longer.

God is always becoming. It's part of what his name YHWH means. The existence of time is linked to existence, which is linked to the existence of God. Your understanding of "eternity" = "a void. No existence. Nothing."

That's the only result of "time shall be no longer".

Each moment in time is becoming the next moment, because God is always becoming. The eternally existing One, "Who is, was and is to come. YHWH."

Even if there were two separate judgments ..

The Revelation doesn't speak of two separate judgments. You do. The Revelation speaks of one judgment of the goats - at the close of a thousand years. It's you who speaks of their judgment at the time Christ returns. Hence you falsely assert that those who say the judgment of the goats is at the close of the thousand years are speaking of two separate judgment of the goats.

Every human being shall be counted among those living and reigning with Christ in time before they physically die, or they shall be counted among the DEAD.

Those who are physically dead, are dead. Neither Jesus or any of His apostles ever spoke of the physically dead as those who had reigned with Christ for a thousand years before they died. Quote the scripture where Jesus or His apostles said that those who had died in Christ had reigned with Him for a thousand years before they died. Those who reign with Christ a thousand years are not said to die at the close of the thousand years, nor are they said to die during the thousand years. You insert a lot of stuff into passages of scripture like this in attempts to cause scripture to comply with your unscriptural theology.

It doesn't work.

 

[Zao is life]

Spiritually the new heaven and new earth began during this age of time ...

... symbolized a thousand years....

Where does it say or imply in the New Testament that this age is "symbolized a thousand years"?

Book, chapter and verse, please. Or books, chapters and verses please.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You're speaking from such a profoundly disingenuous false accusation that at this point I see no point in even answering.

I take it that you were impressed with my arguments and that you are stalling for time to think of an answer. But I was not wrong in my observation that you treat the account as if you were reading the newspaper. I was neither disingenuous nor false. My observation was a genuine attempt at help.

 

[Davidpt]

In order to argue for or against something, the NHNE in relation to the thousand years in this case, one has to get the following sorted out first, which is not difficult at all since it is already plainly obvious when this is initially meaning.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only(Matthew 24:36) the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10)

No interpreter interpreting things in a reasonable manner is going to be applying Matthew 24:36 to a time period post that of the 2nd coming, such as a thousand years later being when Matthew 24:36 is initially meaning. They instead will be applying that to events involving His 2nd coming in the end of this age. Pretribbers and Preterists aside, though. Even though they might be applying it a bit differently than you or I might be(meaning anyone who is not a Pretribber nor a Preterist), they are still not applying it to a period of time post the 2nd coming, such as a thousand years later. And what is Matthew 24:36 undeniably pertaining to? This in verse 35 of course---Heaven and earth shall pass away.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away(Matthew 24:37-39) the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(2 Peter 3:6)

No commentary needed here. It's already crystal clear how Matthew 24:37-39 and 2 Peter 3:6 connects here.

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men(2 Peter 3:7)

When is Matthew 24:39(so shall also the coming of the Son of man be) initially meaning? A thousand years post that of His return in the end of this age? Of course not. No interpreter would nonsensically apply that in that manner. The same way the other portion of Matthew 24:39 is applicable to what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:6, this portion is then applicable to what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:7.

And what in 2 Peter 3 is 2 Peter 3:7 being applied to? Is it not what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:10? Of course it is. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.

We then know for a fact, based on all of the above, that the heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events, not post the 2nd coming events, such as a thousand years after, so how can we then reasonably argue that heaven and earth doesn't pass away until a thousand years post the 2nd coming when all of the above already undeniably proves that it passes away during the 2nd coming events?

IOW, one is obviously contradicting all of the above by insisting the heaven and earth doesn't pass away until a thousand years post that of the 2nd coming. Except one can't logically arrive at the truth by contradicting the truth. That's not the way things work.

If Premil is true then, all of the above undeniably proves that the thousand years couldn't possibly be involving this present heaven and earth if it passes away during the 2nd coming events. That's where we have to start then if we insist that Premil is true. We have to start with the fact that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events. Therefore, it is not reasonable to argue that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. To do so totally disregards everything I submitted in this post which undeniably proves when heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Davidpt]

David, the eternal fate for the goats shall be "everlasting punishment". There won't be one thousand more years of time given them to become part with the sheep after Christ comes again and time shall be no longer. Even if there were two separate judgments (which there shall not be) what difference would it make for those who stand before in judgment as the goats? Will everlasting punishment somehow no longer be everlasting for them?

Rev 20 is depicting the fate of all of humanity! Every human being shall be counted among those living and reigning with Christ in time before they physically die, or they shall be counted among the DEAD. None of the dead (spiritually and physically) shall be resurrected to life again until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer. All who have died in unbelief shall be raised to life again to stand before the Judgment Throne of God, none of the DEAD will be exempt all whose names are not recorded in the book of life shall be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

My position is that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and that the great white throne judgment is meaning after the thousand years. Therefore, the goats, the unprofitable servants of Christ per my view, won't be dwelling on the earth during the thousand years. Which then might explain Daniel 12:2 and the many, thus not all of the lost, that shall awake to everlasting shame at that time.

 

[ewq1938]

The only way your assertion can work is if there are two groups of over-comers being spoken to by Christ in all the above verses - one existing at the close of the current age + another one existing at the close of the thousand years.
​

I don't believe in any concept of two groups of overcomers. This would be a strawman argument. We are discussing when the NHNE starts, I offered evidence and you did not.

 

[ewq1938]

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

David, when is the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" in Premill? According to that verse, the OHOE are burned the day ungodly men are judged and given to perdition.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't believe in any concept of two groups of overcomers. This would be a strawman argument. We are discussing when the NHNE starts, I offered evidence and you did not.

LOL. No. I offered evidence. You did not, except the one isolated passage in Rev.21:1-4 that speaks about the sea and death no longer existing. All the evidence to the contrary of the NHNE commencing after the thousand years you have ignored. Brushed aside. LOL. I think you've been training Amillennialists how to ignore or brush aside all scripture that negates their view, or interpret it in such a way as to make it comply with their views.

This occurs after the NHNE has commenced:
---------------------------------
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God (Rev 2:7).

Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, and My new name (Rev.3:12-13)
---------------------------

Obviously, they will not be hurt by the second death (Rev.2:11), and those who overcome and keep Christ's works to the end, to them He will give power over the nations (Rev.2:26).

And after introducing Himself in the Revelation with the words:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty"

Jesus then speaks seven times to those who overcome and keep His works to the end, and then He says,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. --- And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air ---

--- And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, --- It is done! "--- (Rev.16:15-17),

and then He says,

"Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me, --- It is done --- I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev.21:5-8).

Those who overcome and keep His works to the end will not be hurt by the second death (Rev.2:11; 20:6).​

It couldn't be any clearer that Christ will make all things new and the NHNE will commence when He comes. It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcame and kept His works to the end will reign with Him a thousand years when He comes, and will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God, and will not be hurt by the second death that will come after a thousand years following the coming of Christ.

It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcome and keep His works to the end are the bride of Christ a.k.a New Jerusalem who will come down from God out of heaven following the resurrection of all those who are Christ's when He comes, and will follow Him on white horses when He comes to judge the beast and the nations.

It couldn't be any clearer that @CadyandZoe is producing a strawman argument when he says that I see it as history rather than prophecy.

 

[Zao is life]

My position is that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and that the great white throne judgment is meaning after the thousand years. Therefore, the goats, the unprofitable servants of Christ per my view, won't be dwelling on the earth during the thousand years. Which then might explain Daniel 12:2 and the many, thus not all of the lost, that shall awake to everlasting shame at that time.

The judgment came 120 years before the sentence was carried out. The flood came 120 years after God had judged mankind and said He would destroy all flesh.

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out." John 12:31

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

IMO the above means that the judgment of all unbelievers took place during their lifetimes, but the sentence will only be carried out at the close of the thousand years.

The judgment of the goats will take place 1,000 years before the sentence is carried out, when Chris returns.

The beast and false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire and the rest will be slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, "and all the birds will be filled with their flesh".

The rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years are completed.

 

[Davidpt]

David, when is the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" in Premill? According to that verse, the OHOE are burned the day ungodly men are judged and given to perdition.

I think I see where you are going with this, but first one has to get around the following.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


How is it reasonable that the day and hour meant here, it is being applied to 2 different events separated by a thousand years or more?

If the unknown day and hour is in regards to His 2nd coming, how could it also be in regards to when heaven and earth pass away if the latter event is not even involving the former event at that point?

The text clearly says that no man knows the day and hour that the heaven and earth shall pass away, and that pretty much all interpreters, Premil and Amil alike, except for maybe Preterists and Pretribbers, apply Matthew 24:36 to events involving the 2nd coming. Yet, it is also involving the heaven and earth passing away according to verse 35.

The point being, there couldn't possibly be 2 different unknown 'day and hour' no man knoweth. There is only one unknown day and hour and that it involves the heaven and earth passing away at that time.


Heaven and earth shall pass away a thousand years post that of His return, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Christ shall return in the end of this age, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Only one of these can be correct, otherwise one is adding another unknown day and hour that the text knows nothing of.

It would then be better to understand it like such, don't you think? Heaven and earth shall pass away when Christ returns in the end of this age. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This interpretation involves only one unknown day and hour, not two instead. Thus it agrees with the text, and more importantly, it agrees with what Jesus said.

 

[Timtofly]

Adam got the commandment directly from God. Adam knew exactly what God had said. It ended with the words "dying you will die".

Knowing that the words "you will not surely die" were making the Word of God out to be a lie, Adam did the exact opposite to what God had commanded, though Adam knew exactly what God said.

It was open rebellion. The words "you will be like God" (the promise that Adam would be able to make himself like the Most High) is a clue as to the motive for Adam's open rebellion against God.

It was sin. Open rebellion against God. Adam knew exactly what he was doing, and he knew it was wrong.

The only disobedience Adam portrayed was eating the fruit. You are conflating Eve's deception into the mix.

Being deceived is not the same as open rebellion. The word rebellion is not even mentioned in the text of Revelation 20.

Now you are proposing that God will allow open rebellion a thousand years into the next creation. You don't allow the removal of sin from our current creation, but think you have the next creation already figured out and open rebellion just allowed to ruin the next creation about the same time it did this creation. You have God allowing sin 2 for 0. Will there be a creation without this open rebellion ever?

 

[Timtofly]

In order to argue for or against something, the NHNE in relation to the thousand years in this case, one has to get the following sorted out first, which is not difficult at all since it is already plainly obvious when this is initially meaning.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Heaven and earth shall pass away(Matthew 24:35) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only(Matthew 24:36) the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10)

No interpreter interpreting things in a reasonable manner is going to be applying Matthew 24:36 to a time period post that of the 2nd coming, such as a thousand years later being when Matthew 24:36 is initially meaning. They instead will be applying that to events involving His 2nd coming in the end of this age. Pretribbers and Preterists aside, though. Even though they might be applying it a bit differently than you or I might be(meaning anyone who is not a Pretribber nor a Preterist), they are still not applying it to a period of time post the 2nd coming, such as a thousand years later. And what is Matthew 24:36 undeniably pertaining to? This in verse 35 of course---Heaven and earth shall pass away.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away(Matthew 24:37-39) the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished(2 Peter 3:6)

No commentary needed here. It's already crystal clear how Matthew 24:37-39 and 2 Peter 3:6 connects here.

so shall also the coming of the Son of man be(Matthew 24:39) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men(2 Peter 3:7)

When is Matthew 24:39(so shall also the coming of the Son of man be) initially meaning? A thousand years post that of His return in the end of this age? Of course not. No interpreter would nonsensically apply that in that manner. The same way the other portion of Matthew 24:39 is applicable to what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:6, this portion is then applicable to what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:7.

And what in 2 Peter 3 is 2 Peter 3:7 being applied to? Is it not what is recorded in 2 Peter 3:10? Of course it is. To argue otherwise is ludicrous.

We then know for a fact, based on all of the above, that the heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events, not post the 2nd coming events, such as a thousand years after, so how can we then reasonably argue that heaven and earth doesn't pass away until a thousand years post the 2nd coming when all of the above already undeniably proves that it passes away during the 2nd coming events?

IOW, one is obviously contradicting all of the above by insisting the heaven and earth doesn't pass away until a thousand years post that of the 2nd coming. Except one can't logically arrive at the truth by contradicting the truth. That's not the way things work.

If Premil is true then, all of the above undeniably proves that the thousand years couldn't possibly be involving this present heaven and earth if it passes away during the 2nd coming events. That's where we have to start then if we insist that Premil is true. We have to start with the fact that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events. Therefore, it is not reasonable to argue that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. To do so totally disregards everything I submitted in this post which undeniably proves when heaven and earth pass away.

Heaven and earth do pass away, but not at the Second Coming. That is your problem. Even in 2 Peter 3, it does not say the earth passes away.

Tell me, did the earth and heaven pass away at the Flood?

Did the firmament or heaven pass away.

"in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise"

When all the angels who are the stars come to earth at the 6th Seal, the heavens passed away, but not the earth. Because that verse points out the heavens were rolled back as a scroll. So Peter states the heavens pass away, and John actually sees the event as they are rolled back as as a scroll. In both cases the former heaven was gone and now something else will takes it place as God sees fit.

Peter says the earth also, but not also passes away, but the works on earth are burned up. John says people are still hiding in the caves of the mountains and in the rubble after every thing is burned up. We still have the 6 Trumpets to sound. The judgment of the sheep and goats is on the earth in Jerusalem, with Jesus sitting on a human size throne in a newly built Temple by Jesus Himself. No one can build anything prior to the Second Coming. It would be destroyed by fire, and by Jesus per Zechariah 14 anyway.

So tell me was there a totally different creation before the Flood, and did heaven and earth pass away then? Because that is what Peter is comparing the Second Coming to and John confirms it happens in the 6th Seal, and most think Satan's 42 months have to happen and all that is after you claim heaven and earth no longer exist. Heaven and earth do not burn up in Revelation 19 so your NHNE cannot start then. Heaven and earth do not burn up at the start of Revelation 20 when Satan is bound, so your NHNE cannot start then. You have the NHNE starting at the 6th Seal, and then the 7th Seal is opened, and then the NHNE have to experience all the Trumpets and Thunders and even Satan's 42 months of AoD. Even the pit we call sheol is moved to the NHNE because it is opened after your NHNE start. I assume the new throne set up in Jerusalem and Jerusalem will have to be destroyed by Satan so the New Jerusalem can take her place?

2 Peter 3 is not after the Millennium and certainly not a thousand years after the NHNE. I have already explained the changes to creation caused by the Flood, which was both a new heaven and a new earth, because all that water above the firmament was now back on the earth. That changed both heaven and earth, and one who was drowning could have proclaimed heaven and earth are passing away. Earth was covered in water. The windows of heaven were opened, similar to being rolled back as a scroll. It was also very loud. Peter said the same thing will happen but with fire.

The earth as we know it will pass away, because there will only be one continuous continent, without any division that was caused by the Flood, when the earth broke up. All the mountains will move as well. That is all described in the 6th Seal. In Isaiah 65, Jesus will create all things new as promised. It was the Word that spoke things into being the first time. That Word will never pass away.

But God is still working on this creation and that is why the Day of the Lord finishes up this creation, and is not the first millennia of the NHNE. No verse states the NHNE comes as a thief in the night. Nor is there a verse that states creation leaves like a thief in the night.

 

[ewq1938]

I think I see where you are going with this, but first one has to get around the following.

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


How is it reasonable that the day and hour meant here, it is being applied to 2 different events separated by a thousand years or more?

It's an incomplete quote. Let's see the rest:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe this is the day that is being discussed in this part of the passage. The day of the second coming.



Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Again related to the signs of the second coming. One generation would see all the signs and see the second coming.



Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


I believe Jesus is making a point in verse 35 not changing the day of the second coming to the day of the NHNE. Verse 36 is still addressing the day of the second coming the rest of the passage was discussing.




Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


In total there are about 7 examples like these which are examples of what the second coming will be like. The second coming is a coming to the same old Earth as the first coming. The second coming is not about the coming of the NHNE.


No one knew at that time when the second coming would happen but there were signs given to give a clue.


Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
Mar 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

Again the not knowing the time is directly related to a parable about someone returning and no one was exp[ecting it. This is about the second coming not anything else like when a new Earth would happen.

Luke also makes this clear:

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Second coming reference.

If the unknown day and hour is in regards to His 2nd coming, how could it also be in regards to when heaven and earth pass away if the latter event is not even involving the former event at that point?

The text clearly says that no man knows the day and hour that the heaven and earth shall pass away, and that pretty much all interpreters, Premil and Amil alike, except for maybe Preterists and Pretribbers, apply Matthew 24:36 to events involving the 2nd coming. Yet, it is also involving the heaven and earth passing away according to verse 35.

That's a faulty conclusion which ignores the context of the passage in the 3 gospels. The subject and day is the day of the second coming when people would stand before Jesus.

The point being, there couldn't possibly be 2 different unknown 'day and hour' no man knoweth. There is only one unknown day and hour and that it involves the heaven and earth passing away at that time.

No, that isn't a day that matters because all will be done before that happens. It's the second coming that is the important event that no one knows when it shall happen.

Heaven and earth shall pass away a thousand years post that of His return, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Christ shall return in the end of this age, but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Only one of these can be correct, otherwise one is adding another unknown day and hour that the text knows nothing of.

It would then be better to understand it like such, don't you think? Heaven and earth shall pass away when Christ returns in the end of this age.

You said, "Only one of these can be correct" but you are using both as if they happen at the same time. It cannot be both. Only one is correct not both HaE passing away AND the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

I think I see where you are going with this, but first one has to get around the following.

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


Yes so that verse directly ties the destruction of current HaE with a time AFTER the Millennium has ended when ungodly men are judged and when perdition happens for them. If the HaE are not destroyed at the second coming or during the Millennium then your belief that the NHNE starts at the second coming is wrong and it is wrong and tradition Premill has always understood this correctly.