WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[rwb]

We then know for a fact, based on all of the above, that the heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events, not post the 2nd coming events, such as a thousand years after, so how can we then reasonably argue that heaven and earth doesn't pass away until a thousand years post the 2nd coming when all of the above already undeniably proves that it passes away during the 2nd coming events?

What do you mean by "events"? How many second comings of Christ do you believe there shall be?

If Premil is true then, all of the above undeniably proves that the thousand years couldn't possibly be involving this present heaven and earth if it passes away during the 2nd coming events. That's where we have to start then if we insist that Premil is true. We have to start with the fact that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events. Therefore, it is not reasonable to argue that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. To do so totally disregards everything I submitted in this post which undeniably proves when heaven and earth pass away.

That's a BIG IF! All you've proven is that you believe without authority from Scripture the second and only coming of Christ again will be not only a second coming, as Scripture tells us, but also apparently a third coming again also????????????????????????????? Two second coming events, nonsense!

 

[rwb]

My position is that the sheep and goats judgment is meaning prior to the beginning of the thousand years, and that the great white throne judgment is meaning after the thousand years. Therefore, the goats, the unprofitable servants of Christ per my view, won't be dwelling on the earth during the thousand years. Which then might explain Daniel 12:2 and the many, thus not all of the lost, that shall awake to everlasting shame at that time.

It's proving your position that creates problems for you! Prove two second comings of Christ, and two judgment days separated by one thousand literal years???? Prove also how "unprofitable servants" are Christians?

 

[rwb]

But it makes sense though, take Cain, for instance, that he too answered Jesus like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Or let's even insert an atheist here, for example. That this atheiest too answered Jesus in like manner----Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Some of you apparently have no clue as to how context is supposed to work. Not to mention, where in Revelation 20:11-15 does it ever give the impression that those standing before God at that judgment are being divided into 2 groups, the sheep on the right, the goats on the left? I thought you didn't even believe the sheep will be at that judgment being judged? Clearly, the sheep are among those being judged in Matthew 25, though. How are you going to talk your way out of that contradiction if your position is that the sheep aren't among those being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 while insisting that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, these are the same judgment?

You must be discerning David! These goats called "unprofitable servants" believed their good works would save them. They were not true servants of Christ, they were pew sitters like so many that fill the churches in this world. In the end the Lord, calling them "goats" and not of the "sheep" shows that even good deeds done in the name of Christ will not save us if we have not faith in Christ.

In Rev 20 only "the dead" not two groups as you assume, are called before the GWT to give account for what is written in the books and the book of life. Every single human shall be called to stand before the Judgment Seat, but as we see in Rev 20 only "the dead" not the living shall be judged. When Christ comes the second (once more) time, the physically dead IN CHRIST shall be resurrected in immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh made alive through our spirit that returns with Christ. That's why only those on the left of Christ (the dead) shall be judged, while those on His right, sheep/of faith, have already been judged through the cross of Christ. Already being clothed through the righteousness of Christ, the sheep have no fear of the GWTJ that shall be the second death (LOF) for the goats. As Paul and Christ show us, all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ, but only "the DEAD" or those who have not faith in Christ and are in fact unbelievers shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I believe time, symbolized a thousand years is given to the universal Church to spiritually build the Kingdom of God through the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. When one is born again through the Spirit of Christ within, they have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not an ethnic people called Israel of Old, we are a spiritual people called "Israel of God." In this age of time, as the Israel of God we live and reign with Christ while living on this earth until our natural body of flesh breathes its last. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, this time, symbolized a thousand years will expire when the last trumpet begins to sound that this time for spiritually building the Kingdom of God shall be no longer.

When the Kingdom of God is complete, at the end of a thousand symbolic years, Satan will be loosed for a little season. This won't be a time for building. It will be a time for Satan and ALL who follow after him to be exposed as they spiritually encompass the saints of God who are the beloved city/people/Israel of God still alive on this earth during Satan's little season. The saints alive on this earth then will be called up to meet the Lord in the air and fire from God out of heaven shall devour Satan and his minions left behind. After this and the GWTJ there will be a new heaven and new earth for this first heaven and earth shall have passed away.

I agree with some of what you say, except the parts about The Thousand Years. The time value 1000 might be symbolic of an extended period of time, but the conditions and situations associated with the time period we know as "The Millennial Period" is not an effort to build the Body of Christ as you suggest.

Revelation 20:1-4

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.​

​

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ​

bound him for a thousand years
The Thousand-Years will not witness the activity of Satan. Since the Apostles agree that Satan is able and willing to take advantage of us and tempt us to evil through his schemes, then we know that Satan is not bound. And since Satan is not bound, we know that the Millennial period has not begun.

he would not deceive the nations any longer
According to Revelation 20:7 Satan will be released to deceive the nations with the aim to bring the world against the camp of the saints. Given this context, it seems reasonable to conclude that Satan is bound (verse 2) for a thousand years so that Israel might serve the Father and The Son in peace. Luke 1:74-75

Then I saw thrones
According to my understanding, this phrase is reminiscent of Daniel 7:9 but in this instance, the thrones are set up on earth where Jesus will rule from Jerusalem. Recall Matthew 19:28 where Jesus says that the apostles will sit on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. ​

Revelation 20:4 indicates the fulfillment of Matthew 19:28.

they came to life
This message is meant to encourage those who have died or lost their livelihood for the sake of Jesus Christ. It is also intended to uplift those who have been persecuted for sharing their testimony about Jesus Christ. Death is no obstacle to the Lord.

reigned with Christ
The setting up of thrones informs our understanding of this phrase. While it is true that many of Jesus' followers reign in life, not all of them sit on thrones to rule over others. Thrones were set up so that some of Jesus' followers would rule over the nations together with him.

This is reading your doctrine into the Bible. Because nowhere does the Bible tell us that Israel of old shall carefully observe the commandments of the Lord after Jesus returns to rule over them for a literal one thousand years.

Well, my understanding of prophecy is informed by many of the prophesies taken together to form a complete picture. While I agree that the Bible contains no single passage of scripture that says this explicitly, the overall picture I described can be supported with scripture.

You would do well to study the Deuteronomy passages where God talks about the curses and the blessings. They reveal what I would call "a Grand Reversal of Fortune." During the time of the curses, the Nations will be the head and Israel will be the tail. But when Israel's fortune is turned, She will be the head when the nations are the tail.

Deuteronomy 28:13 The Lord will make you the head and not the tail, and you only will be above, and you will not be underneath, if you listen to the commandments of the Lord your God, which I charge you today, to observe them carefully,​

The holy city new Jerusalem is a spiritual abode

I don't believe that "a spiritual abode" is real or anything.

Just because all who are in unbelief and blaspheme the name of the Lord does not mean His name needs to be vindicated before them!

If God's name doesn't need to be vindicated, why did the Lord teach his disciples to pray, "make your name holy"?

 

[Davidpt]

You must be discerning David! These goats called "unprofitable servants" believed their good works would save them. They were not true servants of Christ, they were pew sitters like so many that fill the churches in this world. In the end the Lord, calling them "goats" and not of the "sheep" shows that even good deeds done in the name of Christ will not save us if we have not faith in Christ.

In Rev 20 only "the dead" not two groups as you assume, are called before the GWT to give account for what is written in the books and the book of life. Every single human shall be called to stand before the Judgment Seat, but as we see in Rev 20 only "the dead" not the living shall be judged. When Christ comes the second (once more) time, the physically dead IN CHRIST shall be resurrected in immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh made alive through our spirit that returns with Christ. That's why only those on the left of Christ (the dead) shall be judged, while those on His right, sheep/of faith, have already been judged through the cross of Christ. Already being clothed through the righteousness of Christ, the sheep have no fear of the GWTJ that shall be the second death (LOF) for the goats. As Paul and Christ show us, all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ, but only "the DEAD" or those who have not faith in Christ and are in fact unbelievers shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

Romans 14:10 (KJV) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

You are not even correctly reading what I'm writing, yet, one is to trust that you are, every single time, correctly reading what is recorded in the Bible? Look what you said that I assume when I assume no such thing to begin with, since my position is that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, these are not the same judgment---"In Rev 20 only "the dead" not two groups as you assume". Where did I ever assume they were being divided into 2 groups?


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Is one also going to argue that the ones being singled out in verse 22, that these too are meaning all of the lost since the beginning of time, such as Cain, and all atheiests, all satanists, so on and so on?

Until Christ came first, it was not even possible to do any of these things recorded in verse 22, obviously. The same is true in regards to the sheep and goats judgment. Until Christ came first, it is not possible to answer Him the way the goats do in Matthew 25. Nor is it possible after Christ came first that an usaved person that has no professed personal relationship with Christ can answer Him in that manner, either. Thus context determines what something is meaning, not our doctrines that we sometimes place above context. Therefore, the goats are not meaning all of the lost since the beginning of time, they are meaning this instead--not once saved always saved involving the NT church age. Plus they fit these I brought up per Matthew 7 above.

Keeping in mind that Matthew 7 also says this---Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Obviously, one can't say any of those things to begin with in regards to Lord, Lord, until after Jesus came first. Obviously, the goats per Matthew 25 did not do the will of His Father in heaven but that the sheep did. Thus, the kingdom the goats thought they too would be inheriting, they instead are cast out of it entirely, and for forever.

 

[WPM]

Apparently then, the thousand years, if it allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must have ended the same day it began, the fact the past 2000 years, if comparing to reality, fit nations being deceived to a T, not the opposite instead.

Stop avoiding. Address what I wrote.

 

[Davidpt]

Stop avoiding. Address what I wrote.

I did address it, and that reality shows pertaining to the past 2000 years that nations are still being deceived, not the opposite instead. And that you said that after the thousand years it is when nations are deceived again. Therefore, if the thousand years allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must already be after the thousand years the same day they begin since nations are being deceived again, meaning for the past 2000 years.

How can you deny that nations have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years? Name one nation during these past 2000 years that their government is not deceived, thus is Christian instead. Keeping in mind that nations are ruled by governments.

To be fair though, maybe the issue I'm having here is that I am misapplying nations here? Let's assume that is the case, and that nations should be understood as individual Gentiles instead. But how does that help your case when it's plainly obvious individual Gentiles have been being deceived for the past 2000 years, otherwise all Gentiles would be Christians instead? Granted, not all Gentiles per the past 2000 years have been being deceived, but what about the ones that have been being deceived? How does that equal that they are not deceived again until after the thousand years? Seriously.

 

[WPM]

I did address it, and that reality shows pertaining to the past 2000 years that nations are still being deceived, not the opposite instead. And that you said that after the thousand years it is when nations are deceived again. Therefore, if the thousand years allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must already be after the thousand years the same day they begin since nations are being deceived again, meaning for the past 2000 years.

How can you deny that nations have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years? Name one nation during these past 2000 years that their government is not deceived, thus is Christian instead. Keeping in mind that nations are ruled by governments.

To be fair though, maybe the issue I'm having here is that I am misapplying nations here? Let's assume that is the case, and that nations should be understood as individual Gentiles instead. But how does that help your case when it's plainly obvious individual Gentiles have been being deceived for the past 2000 years, otherwise all Gentiles would be Christians instead? Granted, not all Gentiles per the past 2000 years have been being deceived, but what about the ones that have been being deceived? How does that equal that they are not deceived again until after the thousand years? Seriously.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as blind, deaf, deceived, ignorant, darkened, imprisoned, and without hope. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened, liberated and trusting in God. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. The strongman was bound so that those in his darkness could come to the light. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Before the cross the Gentiles are continually depicted as being ignorant, blind, in darkness and in rebellion. In the New Testament the Gentiles are said to be enlightened and trusting in God. These are obviously general sweeping statements. They are relative and comparative. Scripture is basically contrasting the wholesale darkness that cloaked the Gentiles in the Old Testament to the widespread evangelism of the New Testament era which saw the Gospel invade all nations and set countless millions free. From a handful of rare Gentile conversions, including one lone Gentile city, to the global spread and success of the great commission, we are looking at in an incredible success.

Gentiles are said here to have been “without God” and “without hope” before the cross. That was a horrible place to be. Even though these are sweeping statements, that did not mean all Gentiles were unsaved. They were not there are many examples of Gentiles encountering God in the Old Testament. They were general simplifications.

 

[WPM]

I did address it, and that reality shows pertaining to the past 2000 years that nations are still being deceived, not the opposite instead. And that you said that after the thousand years it is when nations are deceived again. Therefore, if the thousand years allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must already be after the thousand years the same day they begin since nations are being deceived again, meaning for the past 2000 years.

How can you deny that nations have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years? Name one nation during these past 2000 years that their government is not deceived, thus is Christian instead. Keeping in mind that nations are ruled by governments.

To be fair though, maybe the issue I'm having here is that I am misapplying nations here? Let's assume that is the case, and that nations should be understood as individual Gentiles instead. But how does that help your case when it's plainly obvious individual Gentiles have been being deceived for the past 2000 years, otherwise all Gentiles would be Christians instead? Granted, not all Gentiles per the past 2000 years have been being deceived, but what about the ones that have been being deceived? How does that equal that they are not deceived again until after the thousand years? Seriously.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

In Matthew 12 we see the religious Jews rejecting Christ. Matthew 12:14-22 records, “Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Luke 2:27-32: “And he (Simeon) came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 13:46-48: “Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Acts 26:17: "Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Romans 15:8-12 records: "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

 

[WPM]

I did address it, and that reality shows pertaining to the past 2000 years that nations are still being deceived, not the opposite instead. And that you said that after the thousand years it is when nations are deceived again. Therefore, if the thousand years allegedly began 2000 years ago, it must already be after the thousand years the same day they begin since nations are being deceived again, meaning for the past 2000 years.

How can you deny that nations have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years? Name one nation during these past 2000 years that their government is not deceived, thus is Christian instead. Keeping in mind that nations are ruled by governments.

To be fair though, maybe the issue I'm having here is that I am misapplying nations here? Let's assume that is the case, and that nations should be understood as individual Gentiles instead. But how does that help your case when it's plainly obvious individual Gentiles have been being deceived for the past 2000 years, otherwise all Gentiles would be Christians instead? Granted, not all Gentiles per the past 2000 years have been being deceived, but what about the ones that have been being deceived? How does that equal that they are not deceived again until after the thousand years? Seriously.

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! This is a generality, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! This is a generality, just like Revelation 20.

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! This is a generality, just like Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:2-3 reads: “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not.

Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

 

[Zao is life]

This has me thinking about something. Just pondering here is all. In the past, maybe not on this board, I have noted some Amils saying that if Premil is true they want no part of it, period. Even though I haven't heard every single Amil say that, it wouldn't surprise me if that is their mindset on that as well, that if Premil is true, they want no part of it. Maybe they might get their wish if Premil is true and that there is something to what you are saying here though I currently tend to see it differently.

If Premil ends up being true, thus proved true when Christ returns, and that one wants no part of it even if it is true, that adds up to that they want no part of God's plan, and that unless what God has planned for the future fits their way of thinking, fit how they have interpreted things, thanks, but no thanks. Then they get their wish once satan is loosed. While I OTOH, even though I believe Premil to be the correct postion rather than Amil, I'm certainly not going to be disappointed nor not want no part of it if it turns out that Amil is the correct position in the end instead.

Yes. For many it's a case of not wanting to believe and refusing to believe truth.

I was long time ago Premil when I was first saved, then Amil briefly (still a new Christian not understanding much), back to Premil for a long time, then neither Amil nor Premil for a while when the Word showed me that the NHNE cannot possibly wait until after the millennium because according to the scripture, it indeed comes immediately following the destruction of the beast and false prophet.

Yet Satan is not currently bound, and the New Testament does not say that he is (it says the opposite), and the more Amils hold onto their ridiculous conjecture, pulling scriptures together that are not even talking about the "binding" of Satan, and the more they ignore outright statements regarding Satan and his activities in this world made by Jesus and His apostles,

and the more they try to rip out of their own location in time those who were beheaded by the beast system and seen living and reigning again, and try to force their time for living and reigning with Christ into a time before the beast even ascended from the abyss,
​

the more they say all these things, the more they make me see how they don't seem to care about what scripture actually says but only about what they want it to say or what they believe "it should be saying".

So I was in limbo for a while in what I called "agnos-millennialism" (agnos meaning "no knowledge") because it all seemed too contradictory to fathom. Eventually though, just praying and leaving it in God's hands, He helped me to realize that the scripture is not making a distinction between the time for the commencement of the NHNE and the thousand years, i.e the first thousand years of the NHNE

- and the last three chapters of the Bible just so happen to fit like a hand in a glove with the first three chapters of the Bible in a way very different to what those who always say "the beginning and the end of the Bible fit like a hand in a glove", even realize it does.

But like you, I don't tell the Bible what it means according to what I think it "should" mean: If the Bible shows me (and whenever the Word shows me) that I misunderstood something, then so be it - and yes, if that had to mean that Amil is true, then so be it, and praise God.​

 

[Zao is life]

Satan is bound from deceiving the ethnos (or Gentiles) no more. This spoke of the enlightenment of the nations through the Gospel.

It does not speak of what you decide it speaks of. It speaks of what the Word of God says it speaks of. It's not related to Satan being prevented from "stopping" the enlightenment of the nations through the gospel. By the time Satan is bound, the time for the gospel message will have come to a close.

Read the Revelation without eisegetically inserting your own interpretation into it as you once again show without any Biblical basis yourself doing once again above and below:

After the thousand years he is able to deceive the ethnos (or Gentiles) again. There is a correlation between both. The antithesis of the enlightening is the blinding. He will curtail the great commission.

Christ manifested His kingship over the kingdom of God by stripping Satan of his previous power and influence to control the nations, by invading his kingdom (the nations) and by enlightening/liberating the darkened Gentiles.

Absolute hogwash. Christ destroyed the power that Satan had over death, and hence over his works forever and ever when He died for sins and rose again from the dead.

Not only for a thousand years. Forever and ever.

This was predicted numerous times by the Old Testament prophets, Christ and the New Testament writers.

No it was predicted by WPM and his fellows in their eisegetical insertion of their own interpretations of all scripture in such a way as to make all scripture comply with their theories.

It was the time to shine a light on the ignorant, bound and blind. The free-spread of the Gospel to all nations will be curtailed at the end by the unbinding of Satan, as he is released from his spiritual restraint.

Revelation 20:1-3 states he will be prevented from deceiving the nations due to being bound in the pit, which you and your fellows equate through the grossest eisegesis possible with the gospel and the spread of the gospel, implying that Satan is so powerful that he is at least as powerful or even more powerful than the Holy Spirit - God the Almighty - so that he needs to be bound and shut up in a pit or the Holy Spirit cannot function in the hearts of anyone.

Your theory is false and IMO, blasphemous and hence, disgraceful.

 

[WPM]

It does not speak of what you decide it speaks of. It speaks of what the Word of God says it speaks of. It's not related to Satan being prevented from "stopping" the enlightenment of the nations through the gospel. By the time Satan is bound, the time for the gospel message will have come to a close.

Read the Revelation without eisegetically inserting your own interpretation into it as you once again show without any Biblical basis yourself doing once again above and below:



Absolute hogwash. Christ destroyed the power that Satan had over death, and hence over his works forever and ever when He died for sins and rose again from the dead.

Not only for a thousand years. Forever and ever.



No it was predicted by WPM and his fellows in their eisegetical insertion of their own interpretations of all scripture in such a way as to make all scripture comply with their theories.



Revelation 20:1-3 states he will be prevented from deceiving the nations due to being bound in the pit, which you and your fellows equate through the grossest eisegesis possible with the gospel and the spread of the gospel, implying that Satan is so powerful that he is at least as powerful or even more powerful than the Holy Spirit - God the Almighty - so that he needs to be bound and shut up in a pit or the Holy Spirit cannot function in the hearts of anyone.

Your theory is false and IMO, blasphemous and hence, disgraceful.

I refer you back to my last post. It addresses this.

 

[Zao is life]

We all know where a thousand years in Scripture is found. Let me turn the question to you, where, book, chapter and verse do you find "a thousand years" literally represents ONE thousand years? It cannot be proven that "a" thousand years equates to exactly ONE thousand physical years of time given this earth.

Believe what you will (and I know you will believe what you will).

Nevertheless, the word chílioi means a literal thousand (one thousand) in the following verses in the Revelation:

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand [chílioi], two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared by God, so that they might nourish her there a thousand [chílioi], two hundred and sixty days.

One thousand days + two hundred days + sixty days = 1,260 days.

Revelation 14:20
And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even to the bridles of the horses, for the space of a thousand [chílioi], six hundred stadia.

One thousand stadia + six hundred stadia = 1,600 stadia.

In the New Testament, one thousand, two thousand, three thousand, four thousand, five thousand, and seven thousand in the Greek is: chílioi, dischílioi, trischílioi, tetrakischílioi, pentakischílioi (or pénte chiliás), and heptakischílioi.

144,000: hekatón tessarákonta téssares chiliás (one hundred) (forty) (four) (thousands), example Revelation 7:4.
20,000: eíkosi chiliás (20 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.
12,000: dṓdeka chiliás (12 x 1,000), example Revelation 7:5.
10,000: déka chiliás (10 x 1,000), example Luke 14:31.
7,000: heptakischílioi, example Romans 11:4.
5,000: pentakischílioi, example Matthew 14:21,
OR pénte chiliás (5 x 1,000), example Acts 4:4.

4,000: tetrakischílioi, example Matthew 15:38.
3,000: trischílioi, example Acts 2:41.
2,000: dischílioi, example Mark 5:13.
1,000: chílioi, example 2 Peter 3:8; Revelation 11:3; 12:6; 14:20; 20:2-7.

Notice the difference between chiliás and chílioi in the above list. chiliás means thousands, whereas chílioi means one thousand.

The word chílioi is used in every mention of a thousand years in Revelation chapter 20.

Yet you will believe what you will. So believe what you will.

Also how do you explain how the martyred saints of Rev 20 lived and reigned a thousand years with Christ before they were killed for their faith

You really know how to twist the Word of God so it can fit your theory don't you? Even to the point of outrght lying about what it says.

Where does it say they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they were killed? It does not - and though you seek to twist the Word of God into meaning something that it does not say, it says their living and reigning with Christ is the first resurrection, and the rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years is over.

There's something wrong with some Amils. They do not even blush when the twist what the Word of God is saying the way you do​

, but also have others not listed with the martyred souls who shall also reign with Christ a thousand years? IOW how is a thousand years literally ONE thousand physical years yet past for the martyred souls and still future for those who shall be called "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"?????

Believe what you will. Change the meaning of the Word of God as you will, because you keep showing that you will.

I believe what is written. Not your theology produced by changing what it plainly says and plainly means in order to twist and bend it into complying with your beloved theology which you keep making 100% clear you place far above the Word of God in its authority.

 

[Zao is life]

But it makes sense though, take Cain, for instance, that he too answered Jesus like such---Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Or let's even insert an atheist here, for example. That this atheiest too answered Jesus in like manner----Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Some of you apparently have no clue as to how context is supposed to work. Not to mention, where in Revelation 20:11-15 does it ever give the impression that those standing before God at that judgment are being divided into 2 groups, the sheep on the right, the goats on the left? I thought you didn't even believe the sheep will be at that judgment being judged? Clearly, the sheep are among those being judged in Matthew 25, though. How are you going to talk your way out of that contradiction if your position is that the sheep aren't among those being judged in Revelation 20:11-15 while insisting that the sheep and goats judgment and the GWTJ, these are the same judgment?

Yes. They all called Him Lord. They all believed in Him.

How convenient and judgmental and full of pride to say that "they did not truly believe".

Jesus states very clearly what the sheep were doing and what he goats were not doing.

1 John 3:17-18​

But whoever has this world's goods and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him?

My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

James 2:15-18
"If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it? Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself. But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."​

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt.25:41-46).

In other words, they did not show Christ their faith by their works. It's not that they did not believe, but they were puffed up. So Jesus counsels us all:

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white clothing, so that you may be clothed, and so that the shame of your nakedness does not appear. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, so that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.

To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame and have sat down with My Father in His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (Rev.3:18-22).

It's very clear that when someone says, "Oh, they did not truly believe" (as though we are God and know each one's mind and heart) that the one who says such things is blind and does not see, and is being spoken to by Christ in Rev.3:18-22 above.

John 15:4-5
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
​

He does not say, "Abide in Me and produce NO fruit."

 

[Zao is life]

There is only one Judgment Day, and those you and David think are unprofitable believers makes ZERO sense! We are either believers or unbelievers! And the sheep are counted as the faithful saints of Christ who shall receive their reward, while the goats are counted as professing Christ, but are in FACT unbelievers (unprofitable servants) who think their good works shall save them. That's why they are called "unprofitable" servants and are not numbered with the true servants of Christ who in life did what was the will of the Lord.

Nonsense. You can't change what the Word of God means simply by saying it means something it does not mean, though you believe you can.

My Post #175 quotes the Word of God. The Word of God which answers you each time you twist it and change what it's saying.

 

[ewq1938]

chiliás means thousands, whereas chílioi means one thousand.

No, chiliás means a thousand also. It is singular so like a thousand dollar bill while chílioi is plural like a thousand one dollar bills. Both mean a thousand in two different ways. Both have to have another number to mean more than a thousand.


G5505 chilias is like a thousand dollar bill. There is just one in your hand but it's worth a thousand dollars and the word is written in the singular because of this.

G5507 chilioi (the Greek word found multiple times in Revelation 20) is like having one thousand dollar bills. That's worth the same exact amount, but it's a plural word because there is a thousand singles of something rather than one thing that equals a thousand. Imagine in your left hand a thousand dollar bill, and in your right hand a thousand one dollar bills. Same amount but the way each amount is represented is different. G5507 is plural in this sense, not that it means more than a thousand or multiples of thousands like 2000. Some Amill's will falsely claim G5507 is plural because it means an unknown amount but that shows ignorance of the Greek language and how numbers are represented.

 

[Zao is life]

Paul the Apostle said to the Galatians believers in Galatians 3:7-9, “know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham (in Genesis 12:1-3, 17:5-6, 18:18, 22:15-18), saying, in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Galatians 3:13-14 says, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles [Gr. ethnos] should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel"

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

1 John 2:8: “the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

2 Peter 1:19 "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts"

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not! These are generalities, just like Revelation 20.

1 Peter 2:9-10: “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Does this mean there is no darkness now? Of course not!

Scripture often makes general sweeping statements in regard to a people or peoples pertaining to their spiritual state in a given era.

And you often make general sweeping statements that contradict scripture,

such as linking the above to Revelation 20's mention of a thousand years - and whenever you do this, you twist and change the meaning of scripture to comply with your false theory that you believe in like it's the gospel,

just like you just did again when you twisted and changed the obvious Biblical meaning behind the characteristics defining the thousand years which are mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 by applying a truthful statement to a false one:​

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

What you have just once again done (and what you frequently do in your posts) is to apply a truthful statement (or truthful statements) to a false one in order to attempt to make the false statement look true.

Applying a truthful statement or truthful statements to a false one to make the false statement look true has been done since the beginning when the father of lies asked Eve, "Hath God indeed said that you shall not eat of every tree in the garden?"

Your truthful statement regarding scripture making general sweeping statements with regard to certain things did not make the lie regarding your "Revelation 20 is talking about thousands of years which are taking place now, and Satan is currently bound in the pit and unable to deceive the nations" a true statement (it remains a lie), and these tactics you just used are as old as what took place in the Garden of Eden.​

 

[WPM]

And you often make general sweeping statements that contradict scripture,

such as linking the above to Revelation 20's mention of a thousand years - and whenever you do this, you twist and change the meaning of scripture to comply with your false theory that you believe in like it's the gospel,

just like you just did again when you twisted and changed the obvious Biblical meaning behind the characteristics defining the thousand years which are mentioned in Revelation 20:1-6 by applying a truthful statement to a false one:

What you have just once again done (and what you frequently do in your posts) is to apply a truthful statement (or truthful statements) to a false one in order to attempt to make the false statement look true.

Applying a truthful statement or truthful statements to a false one to make the false statement look true has been done since the beginning when the father of lies asked Eve, "Hath God indeed said that you shall not eat of every tree in the garden?"

Your truthful statement regarding scripture making general sweeping statements with regard to certain things did not make the lie regarding your "Revelation 20 is talking about thousands of years which are taking place now, and Satan is currently bound in the pit and unable to deceive the nations" a true statement (it remains a lie), and these tactics you just used are as old as what took place in the Garden of Eden.​

The only way your argument survives is by ignoring the multiple holes in your argument. You avoid every inquiry. You avoid every Scripture that forbids your doctrine.

 

[rwb]

I agree with some of what you say, except the parts about The Thousand Years. The time value 1000 might be symbolic of an extended period of time, but the conditions and situations associated with the time period we know as "The Millennial Period" is not an effort to build the Body of Christ as you suggest.

Revelation 20:1-4
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
bound him for a thousand years
The Thousand-Years will not witness the activity of Satan. Since the Apostles agree that Satan is able and willing to take advantage of us and tempt us to evil through his schemes, then we know that Satan is not bound. And since Satan is not bound, we know that the Millennial period has not begun.

he would not deceive the nations any longer
According to Revelation 20:7 Satan will be released to deceive the nations with the aim to bring the world against the camp of the saints. Given this context, it seems reasonable to conclude that Satan is bound (verse 2) for a thousand years so that Israel might serve the Father and The Son in peace. Luke 1:74-75

Then I saw thrones
According to my understanding, this phrase is reminiscent of Daniel 7:9 but in this instance, the thrones are set up on earth where Jesus will rule from Jerusalem. Recall Matthew 19:28 where Jesus says that the apostles will sit on twelve thrones ruling over the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 20:4 indicates the fulfillment of Matthew 19:28.

they came to life
This message is meant to encourage those who have died or lost their livelihood for the sake of Jesus Christ. It is also intended to uplift those who have been persecuted for sharing their testimony about Jesus Christ. Death is no obstacle to the Lord.

reigned with Christ
The setting up of thrones informs our understanding of this phrase. While it is true that many of Jesus' followers reign in life, not all of them sit on thrones to rule over others. Thrones were set up so that some of Jesus' followers would rule over the nations together with him.

Notice this does not tell us they came to life AGAIN as Premillennialists want us to believe. Since non shall be resurrected physically to life again before an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer, "they came to life" has to be spiritually. They were dead spiritually in trespasses and sins but then they heard the Gospel of Christ proclaimed in the power of the holy Spirit and they came to spiritual life through Him.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-8 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Just as the verse tells us after these martyred faithful saints came spiritually to life through the power of the Gospel and Spirit, before they were physically martyred for their faithfulness they "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years". How? According to grace through faith, by the power of God in life or during this time symbolized a thousand years they were born again and kept the faith of Christ to the last breath of physical life.

Premillennialists always assume that Satan's binding will be a time of physical peace and harmony for one thousand years. In doing this Premillennialists must ignore so many passages and verses that tell us sin and death shall not end until the second coming of Christ when He shall make all things new. It is nowhere written that a literal time of one thousand years shall come where Israel of old will serve the Father and the Son in peace.

To live and reign with Christ during our lifetime as kings and priests is not literally living and reigning with Him. It is to live and reign with Him over His Spiritual Kingdom that is not of this earth, cannot be seen with physical sight, and may only be entered by the power of the Gospel and Holy Spirit as He turns our hearts to Christ for everlasting life. The Kingdom of God is NOT NOW a physical Kingdom, it is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. We live and reign with Christ as kings and priests in His spiritual Kingdom when we are born again, and as His messengers we proclaim the Gospel through the power of His Spirit in us so the Kingdom of God in heaven shall be complete.