"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

[St. SteVen]

On the contrary, the fact of God lowered Himself in the form of a man--is not proof that He is not God--but rather that He is.

Thoughts to consider.

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

/

 

[ScottA]

Where does it say in the Bible that “God” lowered himself in the form of a man?
If this is a reference to Phil 2, then you need to reread what it says….it says that the son existed “in God’s form”….what is God’s “form”?……John tells us that “God is a spirit”, so to be in God’s “form” the pre-human Jesus was also a glorious spirit, like all spirit creatures are. (John 17:5, 24)

The laws of redemption would have to be given a new definition if God himself were to become a mere mortal. But, if Jesus was the immortal God, then he could not die. If the redeemer did not die the same death as Adam, then the set price of redemption was not paid…..it would have been ridiculously over paid.

To redeem mankind, all the redeemer needed to be was sinless…the exact equivalent of Adam, to buy back what Adam lost for his children.

God’s law required “atonement”….at-one-ment…one for one. The law stated…”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life”. The life offered to redeem the human race descended from Adam had to be the same as the one that was forfeited. An immortal God cannot pay for the sins of a mortal man. And there were now no sinless humans who could offer themselves to God to save their fellow humans.

God “sent” his own son to pay the ransom demanded under God’s unalterable law. (John 17:3)
He did this without hesitation and left his glorious spirit body to become a human embryo in the womb of a young virgin.

This insistence on Jesus being God does not find support in the Bible at all…..Jesus is what he called himself…”the son of God”…..not once is he called “God the Son”…the RCC made that up in order to promote their altered god. They swapped the “sun god” and made him the “son god”…..a simple shift in terminology imposed on its members who were not permitted access to God’s word and were kept in ignorance for centuries, compounding their lies with doctrine after doctrine that were all based on pagan Roman sun worship. Of all the Catholic doctrines that should have been discarded this should have been the first….it is a clear breach of the first Commandment to put another “god” in the Father’s place. It is blasphemy.

This is a clear case of humans creating their own box for their god, and trying to scripturally squeeze him into it….but there are too many bits that do not fit, so they simply cut them off, rather than accept the box he came in.

​

Philippians 2:5-8​

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I wanted to return to this aspect of box size and believing outside the box.
Even the idea of either growing or shrinking our box as we grow in faith.
I haven't decided whether box size (or contents) effect the size of faith or not.
Up for discussion...

Yes, the box illustration prompts an interesting investigation….
Does a person need to have supernatural experiences of God to have the faith that he requires of his worshippers? Can we not gaze at creation itself and see the Creator, everywhere? His stamp is on everything he has made with a perfection that only he can create, even in the most minute life form there is detail that only a microscope can detect. Compare that with the largest of the celestial bodies in space and see the incredible contrast….it is mind blowing. Faith of the most solid kind can come just from that observation and a desire to please the Creator can be engendered from an appreciative heart…even the heart of a child.

Are supernatural experiences of themselves proof that they are from God? The deceiver is powerful too and he is a mimic.…he also masquerades as an “angel of light”, so is it even wise to rely on them for faith?

Paul said that this was the trait of a spiritual child…the need to see or experience miracles. But then, after saying that the spiritual gifts would cease, he said….
“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor 12:11-13)

So what identifies a true Christian is not the supernatural (which the devil can mimic) but the stronger traits of “faith, hope and love”…..these are what will carry a Christian through the toughest trials….and the devil will keep them coming, just as he did with Job.….satan wants us to develop a breakable faith…..but we can build it with much stronger materials.

Was Jesus statement in Matthew 8:26,
“You of little faith..." a criticism of the disciples box size?
It seems that the four corners of what they were capable of believing
didn't include authority over life-threatening storms.
But why should it? Nevertheless, Jesus seemed disappointed in them.
I'm not sure why.

“With that he got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: “Hush! Be quiet!” And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. 40 So he said to them: “Why are you so afraid? Do you not yet have any faith?” 41 But they felt an unusual fear, and they said to one another: “Who really is this? Even the wind and the sea obey him.”

His words indicate disappointment because as the son of God, no harm would be allowed to befall him until it was time to complete his mission. If they were with him, they too would receive God’s protection. Perhaps he was most disappointed in their words, rather than just their actions?……”they woke him up and said to him: “Teacher, do you not care that we are about to perish?” Hadn’t they been with Jesus long enough to know how much he cared about them?

 

[Peterlag]

On the contrary, the fact of God lowered Himself in the form of a man--is not proof that He is not God--but rather that He is.

How do we get a thing called the faith of Jesus Christ if he's God?

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ...

 

[Peterlag]

He is God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.


You can state it as many times as you like and each time you do you will be wrong. There is never stated to be any covenant between Jesus and God and thus no such bond. They are one.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

He is God


Any translation/interpretation which speaks of the faith of Jesus Christ with faith being in the sense of Hebrews 11:1 is false. Thus passages such as Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22 or Revelation 14:12 as given by the KJV are incorrect. In each of those verses, the correct translation/interpretation must be faith IN Jesus Christ.

Someone on here... maybe it was @BlessedPeace told me about an old Bible done in the 3rd or 4th century. Translated in 1861 that has Galatians 2:20 this way...

With Christ have I been crucified: I live; however, no longer I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and delivered himself up for me.

 

[ScottA]

How do we get a thing called the faith of Jesus Christ if he's God?

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ...

You say that as if it were an impossibility. It's not.

By the same means, looking in a mirror produces a reflection, an image.

In other words, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", does not show or prove that God's own image is not God, but rather that Jesus is an image ("in Our image").

 

[Phil .]

You say that as if it were an impossibility. It's not.

By the same means, looking in a mirror produces a reflection, an image.

In other words, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", does not show or prove that God's own image is not God, but rather that Jesus is an image ("in Our image").

A mirror doesn’t produce a reflection. You can inspect and see this for yourself as it were, by placing a book between any small object and a mirror, and looking from an angle. The small object will be visible to you ‘in the mirror’, even though it’s entirely blocked off by the book with respect to the mirror.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Philippians 2:5-8​

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

That is a really bad translation…what Paul said is the exact opposite of how that is rendered in some English translations.
The ESV renders that passage….
”5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

A careful reading of that passage will reveal the very opposite of what you have been led to believe it says.

Being in God’s “form” simply meant being in a spirit body. All who reside in heaven with God are spirits.

He never counted “equality with God a thing to be grasped”…..because he would never do that to usurp his Father’s position. He was an obedient son…so to whom was he obedient? His God and Father.

So, after completing his difficult mission, he returned to his former position in heaven and received the reward of “a name that is above every name”….but not above the name of his Father, who is “The Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18) There can be no one higher.

So as the exalted son of God (God cannot exalt himself) every knee should bow as a mark of respect in obeisance, not worship...because all the things Jesus accomplished was “to the glory of God the Father”, not himself.

You have been deceived.

 

[ScottA]

A mirror doesn’t produce a reflection. You can inspect and see this for yourself as it were, by placing a book between any small object and a mirror, and looking from an angle. The small object will be visible to you ‘in the mirror’, even though it’s entirely blocked off by the book with respect to the mirror.

Obviously that went right over your head.

Do you even have a head?

 

[Peterlag]

You say that as if it were an impossibility. It's not.

By the same means, looking in a mirror produces a reflection, an image.

In other words, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", does not show or prove that God's own image is not God, but rather that Jesus is an image ("in Our image").

Here's another cool translation...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I have been crucified with The Messiah, and from then on I myself have not been living, but The Messiah is living in me, and this that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of The Son of God, he who has loved us and has given himself for us.

You lost me on the image thing. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

 

[Peterlag]

A mirror doesn’t produce a reflection. You can inspect and see this for yourself as it were, by placing a book between any small object and a mirror, and looking from an angle. The small object will be visible to you ‘in the mirror’, even though it’s entirely blocked off by the book with respect to the mirror.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

By the same means, looking in a mirror produces a reflection, an image.

The image in the mirror is not you but a reflection of you…..a likeness…..what you look like.

In other words, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father", does not show or prove that God's own image is not God, but rather that Jesus is an image ("in Our image").

‘Like Father, like son’….is what that means. Jesus reflects all that his Father is…his qualities and his personality. Nowhere does God say that his son is also God. That is two gods…add the Holy Spirit and you have three gods…..that is polytheism and against God’s law……squeezing three gods into one head is not scriptural. The God of the Jews was “one”, not three. Nowhere did Jesus alter the Shema. (Deut 6:4)

 

[St. SteVen]

Does a person need to have supernatural experiences of God to have the faith that he requires of his worshippers? Can we not gaze at creation itself and see the Creator, everywhere? His stamp is on everything he has made with a perfection that only he can create, even in the most minute life form there is detail that only a microscope can detect. Compare that with the largest of the celestial. Oldies in space and see the incredible contrast….it is mind blowing. Faith of the most solid kind can come just from that observation and a desire to please the Creator can be engendered from an appreciative heart…even the heart of a child.

This bit about the supernatural came up in due course, but box size (four corners) came up in the OP.
Which seemed to be more of a reference to education than life experience.

Are supernatural experiences of themselves proof that they are from God? The deceiver is powerful too and he is a mimic.…he also masquerades as an “angel of light”, so is it even wise to rely on them for faith?

That's up to the individual to discern. If the experience draws you closer to God, then it seems to be genuine.

Paul said that this was the trait of a spiritual child…the need to see or experience miracles. But then, after saying that the spiritual gifts would cease, he said….
“When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.” (1 Cor 12:11-13)

I think Paul is talking about physical children not spiritual children.
On the other hand, Jesus said of children; "... the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." - Luke 18:16

So what identifies a true Christian is not the supernatural (which the devil can mimic) but the stronger traits of “faith, hope and love”…..these are what will carry a Christian through the toughest trials….and the devil will keep them coming, just as he did with Job.….satan want us to develop a breakable faith…..but we can build it with much stronger materials.

What do you make of this?
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they
will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; - Mark 16:17

“With that he got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea: “Hush! Be quiet!” And the wind abated, and a great calm set in. 40 So he said to them: “Why are you so afraid? Do you not yet have any faith?” 41 But they felt an unusual fear, and they said to one another: “Who really is this? Even the wind and the sea obey him.”

His words indicate disappointment because as the son of God, no harm would be allowed to befall him until it was time to complete his mission. If they were with him, they too would receive God’s protection. Perhaps he was most disappointed in their words, rather than just their actions?……”they woke him up and said to him: “Teacher, do you not care that we are about to perish?” Hadn’t they been with Jesus long enough to know how much he cared about them?

Perhaps. But what would have happened had they not awakened him when they did.
I'm guessing they waited until the last minute.

/

 

[ScottA]

You lost me on the image thing. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Okay...let's start with you: Is your image in a mirror not you, but someone else? (Rhetorical)

The answer is, there is you, and there is your image, and your image is not another being. God has declared from the beginning that man was made in His image. So...you are having a problem with the idea that One of those images could actually be a perfect image, and therefore--like your image in the mirror, not another being...but in fact you, or in this case Jesus, in the image in the mirror is none other.

But that brings us back to the beginning...where you got lost with the "image thing."

You might need to start over.

 

[Phil .]

Obviously that went right over your head.

Do you even have a head?

Do you? Check direct experience and see.

 

[Phil .]

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

Colossians 1:15 (NIV): "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."
Corinthians 4:4 (NIV): "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

It doesn’t say person.

 

[RedFan]

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the “image of God” Colossians 1:15; 2 Corinthians 4:4). If Christ is the image of God, then he cannot be God because a person cannot be himself and an image of himself at the same time. Jesus can be called the “image” of God because he always did the will of God, and because he was the image of God is why he could say you had seen the Father if you had seen him.

This suggests that Paul did not believe Jesus Christ to be God. (Which puts a spin on Titus 2:13's theou kai soteros, I suppose.)

 

[ScottA]

The image in the mirror is not you but a reflection of you…..a likeness…..what you look like.

‘Like Father, like son’….is what that means. Jesus reflects all that his Father is…his qualities and his personality. Nowhere does God say that his son is also God. That is two gods…add the Holy Spirit and you have three gods…..that is polytheism and against God’s law……squeezing three gods into one head is not scriptural. The God of the Jews was “one”, not three. Nowhere did Jesus alter the Shema. (Deut 6:4)

Sorry that I am having to be so blunt with you and @Peterlag, but you have both from the very beginning, apparently, missed the fact that man (including Jesus) is manifest in the form of an "image" of God, a reflection. Which in the case of Jesus is a perfect image, and thus like the image in a mirror, He is not the image of another...no more than when you look in the mirror it is not an image of another.

You too might have to start over at the beginning. God was pretty clear. But you are not alone, many have made that image into something else.

But let me get you started: "All in Adam", "All in Christ" "All in all", "as one man." Don't let the multitudes fool you.

 

[Peterlag]

This suggests that Paul did not believe Jesus Christ to be God. (Which puts a spin on Titus 2:13's theou kai soteros, I suppose.)

Scholars debate the translation of this verse, and the two sides of that debate can be seen in the various translations. Some scholars believe that “glory” is used in an adjectival sense, and that the verse should be translated as in the NIV84: “While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” Versions that follow suit are the KJV and the Amplified Version. Many other versions, such as the Revised Version, American Standard Version, NAS, Moffatt, RSV, NRSV, Douay, New American Bible, NEB, etc., translate the verse very differently. The NASB is a typical example. It reads, “…looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” The difference between the translations is immediately apparent. In the NIV84, we await the “glorious appearing” of God, while in the NASB we await the “appearing of the glory” of God our Savior (this is a use of “Savior” where the word is applied in the context to God, not Christ. Of course, the glory will come at the appearing, but Scripture says clearly that both the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father will appear (Luke 9:26). God’s Word also teaches that when Christ comes, he will come with his Father’s glory: “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory” (Matt. 16:27).

 

[Peterlag]

Okay...let's start with you: Is your image in a mirror not you, but someone else? (Rhetorical)

The answer is, there is you, and there is your image, and your image is not another being. God has declared from the beginning that man was made in His image. So...you are having a problem with the idea that One of those images could actually be a perfect image, and therefore--like your image in the mirror, not another being...but in fact you, or in this case Jesus, in the image in the mirror is none other.

But that brings us back to the beginning...where you got lost with the "image thing."

You might need to start over.

Okay... let's start with you. Is your image of you someone else or is there only one of you when you look in the mirror?