HELLUCINATIONS

[Spiritual Israelite]

And the temptation that many have fallen for, is the rapture escapist belief.

Hey; foolish Christian, you who don't bother to read your Bible, you need to do nothing. The Lord is going to whisk you away from any trials or testing. NOT

I'm not sure how or why any Christian can think that way when many Christians have gone though trials and testing for the past 2,000 years already. But, somehow they think Christians will avoid it if they happen to be alive when an imaginary pre-trib rapture happens?

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Keraz]

If we are mistaken about some end times doctrine, so be it. Does that mean the things we're right about mean nothing? Is Jesus going to reject us for misinterpreting Revelation 20? Of course not. Salvation does not hinge on our interpretation of Revelation 20.

Of course we have the great Promise of Jesus: Believe on Me and you will be saved.

The problem of other; false beliefs is addressed in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, where those who build their faith on wrong doctrines, hay and straw= useless things; without foundation they may fail the test. Or with solid and enduring beliefs, so when the fires of testing come; their faith can withstand it.
On top of that is James 3:1, where we are told - Those who teach will face a more severe Judgment.

 

[Rockerduck]

And the temptation that many have fallen for, is the rapture escapist belief.

Hey; foolish Christian, you who don't bother to read your Bible, you need to do nothing. The Lord is going to whisk you away from any trials or testing. NOT

Where did read that in my answer? Trials, tribulations, and temptations come to all Christians for testing their faith. I've talked to sick Christians and told them the same thing as this. Your worst trouble is for the building your faith in God and trusting Him more. Some if not most have a thorn in the flesh like Paul. Christ's power is perfected in weakness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course we have the great Promise of Jesus: Believe on Me and you will be saved.

Glad we agree on that. You really need to stop making posts where you give the impression that having any false end times beliefs means you're not a Christian. You are often giving that impression. Please be careful about that.

The problem of other; false beliefs is addressed in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, where those who build their faith on wrong doctrines, hay and straw= useless things; without foundation they may fail the test. Or with solid and enduring beliefs, so when the fires of testing come; their faith can withstand it.
On top of that is James 3:1, where we are told - Those who teach will face a more severe Judgment.

Sure. That's a legitimate concern and worth talking about.

 

[Keraz]

Where did read that in my answer? Trials, tribulations, and temptations come to all Christians for testing their faith. I've talked to sick Christians and told them the same thing as this. Your worst trouble is for the building your faith in God and trusting Him more. Some if not most have a thorn in the flesh like Paul. Christ's power is perfected in weakness.

No argument from me on this.
But what I teach is how there is coming the great test of our faith by fire, as 1 Peter 4:12 and what a hundred other prophesies tell us will happen, so as to winnow out those who fully trust in the Lord and separate those who fail this test. Matthew 3:12

It is likely to be those who believed in a rapture removal, who will renounce God - for not doing what they fondly imagined He would

Sure. That's a legitimate concern and worth talking about.

So SI, start another thread; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
What are rotten and flammable doctrines and what is solid and enduring doctrine?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So SI, start another thread; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
What are rotten and flammable doctrines and what is solid and enduring doctrine?

You are telling me to start another thread? You can do that if you want. I don't feel any need to create a thread about that topic, but, if you did, I would likely take part in it.

 

[Keraz]

You are telling me to start another thread? You can do that if you want. I don't feel any need to create a thread about that topic, but, if you did, I would likely take part in it.

Let me tell you what works, or beliefs are allegorized as hay, straw and stubble; They are ones that have no proper Biblica support.
The works and beliefs allegorized as 'gold, silver and precious stones', are built on the foundation of the true Word.

Many people are confident in what they have accepted as true, but if their belief contradicts in any way; the Bible truths, then those beliefs, doctrines, ideas and assumptions, are just so much rubbish, to be burned up as everybody passes through fire. 1 Cor 3:13

 

[TribulationSigns]

Rapture believers say: We are not appointed to wrath, and, The Lord delivers us from tribulation. To make these scriptures mean a removal from planet earth, directly to God’s dwelling place of heaven, is an impossible stretch of the imagination.

The "great tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God which is by Pretribulationists placed the rapture before their so-called 7 years great tribulation.

For example, the wars, immorality, and hatred we will always have in this world. It won't pass until all is fulfilled. It is normal for True Believers to have tribulation since the Cross, but in the time of the end, as we get closer to Christ's Second Coming, the great tribulaton will be greater of the same! It will be the time when the True Christians will experience a great vexed or troubled by the increasing wickedness of the world around them, and sadly some professing Christians use this spiritual distress as a reason to throw up their hands and succumb to the man of lawlessness. Others lose the little faith they had and wonder, "where is God." But God is still on the throne, and these things must take place according to His divine providence. We hold fast "Till He Comes." Here is the patience and faith of the saints. Those who never had real saving faith will fall by the wayside, while the ones sealed of the Spirit are secured to endure to the end. Even in these times of trial and great tribulation preceding the Lord's coming, they endure in Christ Jesus. Look at Lot as an example, his calling out, and God's ultimate wrath on those who vexed him--because he is our example:

2nd Peter 2:7-9

• "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
• (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
• The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

God was still in charge, even then. But His plan had to be fulfilled in calling out the righteous, and pouring wrath from on high upon the unjust. So it is in these "last days" at the end of the New Testament period. The righteous, just like Lot, are vexed or distressed by the unrighteousness, dishonesty, and filthy living of the world around and indeed among them, and just like Lot, God will deliver them out of temptations/trials/tribulations. Not rapture (not yet anyway).

Matthew 24:21-22

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

No matter what we do, things in the world will continue to get worse and worse. And the CHURCH TOO! WE will see the increase of homosexuality, transgenderism, hatred, love of God grow cold, increase of false prophets and christs, the abomination of desolation be set up.... Til He come!

Be not deceived by the growing wickedness in the world, nor the growing worldliness in the church, for it has always been prophesied. Consider the Lilies of the field. And consider also the warnings God gave to the messengers of the church, and be not discouraged. We are victors or conquerors in Christ's work, not in the world. This is but a trial to test us. Sadly, the test is not going well for most professing Christians.

Revelation 3:10-11

• "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
• Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

That word temptation is the word "trail" and it is a "testing" program of God, wherein those who have overcome in Christ are made sure pillars in the temple. They are those who have made their calling and election sure. So my friend, do not be discouraged, only believe and have patience in saving faith until the last trump on the last day. Not the rapture about 7 years earlier.

 

[Keraz]

The "great tribulation" is NOT the wrath of God

But it is.
Proved by Revelation 15:1, where we are told that the wrath of God will be over when the Great Trib, during the final 3 1.2 years of this age.

That word temptation is the word "trail" and it is a "testing" program of God, wherein those who have overcome in Christ are made sure pillars in the temple. They are those who have made their calling and election sure. So my friend, do not be discouraged, only believe and have patience in saving faith until the last trump on the last day. Not the rapture about 7 years earlier.

Your confusion and errors are very apparent.
Most Westerners, esp Americans, have no conception of real trials and testing. What the Lord is soon to do, will hit them like a bombshell.
The foolish and incredible idea that they will be raptured outta here, has made people complacent and unprepared for what many Prophesies say must happen.
Our selection is not sure yet, we must prove our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But it is.
Proved by Revelation 15:1, where we are told that the wrath of God will be over when the Great Trib, during the final 3 1.2 years of this age.

Rev 15:1
(1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Huh? You said the wrath of God will be over when the Great Trib...???

Anyway, the plagues are indeed God's wrath but it will be upon His unfaithful congregation (Church) where His Elect are told to come out to avoid the plagues:

Rev 18:4-5
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Mat 24:15-16
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
(16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This is not the great tribulation because the great tribulation "FOR" the Elect will end when they comes out of unfaithful congregation where God will judge her with plagues. It is God's wrath upon his church at this time, not the world. It is not the Last Day yet. It is not the Last Trump yet for it will occur AFTER the judgment of the whore is finished. That is when the Second Coming and the rapture will occur. Then the judgment of the WORLD will take place.

1Pe 4:17
(17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[Keraz]

Huh? You said the wrath of God will be over when the Great Trib...???

....when the Great Trib is over.
Which will be the 7th Bowl, Rev 16:17 - At Armageddon.

Anyway, the plagues are indeed God's wrath but it will be upon His unfaithful congregation (Church) where His Elect are told to come out to avoid the plagues:

Yes, we see this in Revelation 12, where the unfaithful face persecution, verse 17 and the faithful are taken to a place of safety on earth, Rev 12:14

This is not the great tribulation because the great tribulation

Matthew 24:15, the desecration in the temple will commence the Great Trib.

 

[Bladerunner]

....when the Great Trib is over.
Which will be the 7th Bowl, Rev 16:17 - At Armageddon.

Yes, we see this in Revelation 12, where the unfaithful face persecution, verse 17 and the faithful are taken to a place of safety on earth, Rev 12:14

Matthew 24:15, the desecration in the temple will commence the Great Trib.

May I jump in? The Battle of Armegeddon is over in Rev 19.

Rev 12: is about Israel as is most all of Revelation. The Woman is Israel who bore Jesus Christ and (likely) also about the Raptured Church caught-up Verse 17 is about those Jews that believe in Jesus and flee Judeah. Here Satan is physically trying to kill them as they flee to the mountains to the South (Petra) . This Remnant of Israel, God saves and protects, waters and feeds in a safe place for 3.5 years, 42 months 1260 days. This mortal Remnant of Israel (including those who die in the OT as saints) will receive the New Covenant (Ezekial 36:25-29). They will help Jesus rule the Millennial world from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. The Gentiles, that are still alive at the end of Daniel's 70th week will live through(??maybe)Millennium as well. For the Church has been translated prior to Daniel's 70th week, the Tribulation Saints (Rev 6:9) have received justice at the end of Daniel's 70th week and are also translated as saints given the task to run the temple (50 mile x 50 mile) during this 1,000 years. Of course in rev 20:20, the bodies of the dead still on earth (all time) are resurrected, their souls that are in Hell will be reunited for the Great White Throne Judgement.

You are right, the 2nd half 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week will begin the Great Tribulation/Jacob's Troubles....the reason for Daniel's 70th week (7 Years of death and wrath of God) is to put the Jews up against the Wall so to speak. WHY? because during WWII, roughly 1/3 of the Jewish population died....and during Jacob's Troubles, 2/3 of the Jewish population worldwide will have happened.......

 

[Keraz]

Rev 12: is about Israel as is most all of Revelation.

Revelation 12 is about the Christian peoples; Jew and Gentile.

As for the Jewish State of Israel, they will be gone and only a remnant will survive. Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:27

It will be the faithful Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will be kept safe during the 42 month GT. Proved by how it will be those Christians who failed the test of their faith, who must remain under 'beast' control; as Rev 12:17 tells us.

 

[Bladerunner]

Revelation 12 is about the Christian peoples; Jew and Gentile.

As for the Jewish State of Israel, they will be gone and only a remnant will survive. Jeremiah 12:14, Romans 9:27

It will be the faithful Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will be kept safe during the 42 month GT. Proved by how it will be those Christians who failed the test of their faith, who must remain under 'beast' control; as Rev 12:17 tells us.

Unfortunately you have been given wrong information. Oh, we Gentile Christians now have tribes.......After Rev 5, the writing turns to a Jewish view.. Chapter 7, brings us to the 144,000 (all Jewish and not gentile) who will preach to the earth during Daniel's 70th week. They will bring those faithful Christians to the forefront for they are of every tribe, race, nation and language and they will be known as the Tribulation Saints. They will be translated to Heaven as saints with palms in their hands. The 144,000 will also be translated to heaven, Rev 14:1-5, The Remnant of Israel will be Jewish only and will be of those that flee Judaea when the Anti-christ declares that He is GOD....at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. This is seen in Rev Chapter 12, where the Women "travailing in birth" is the Jewish Nation, giving Birth to Our Lord and Savior. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be..And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Mat 24:15-22). Here Jesus is speaking to His inner circle, Jews all.......The above will be the remnant of Israel being saved (Rev 12:13-17)..."And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Following this, Satan returns to Judaea to destroy those who did not flee from Judaea. This was 2/3 of the Israel nations population at this time.

 

[Keraz]

Unfortunately you have been given wrong information

My information about Gods Plans for our future, comes exclusively from the Bible.

The idea that Judah; specifically the Jewish State of Israel, has a special part to play in the end times, is not Biblical.
They face Judgment and punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27. +

They will be translated to Heaven as saints with palms in their hands

This assumption is wrong, Heaven is never mentioned in Rev 7. They are on earth, in the holy Land.
I laugh at your supposed idea of the palm branches being translated, along with those saints. All just confused and unbiblical error.

 

[Bladerunner]

My information about Gods Plans for our future, comes exclusively from the Bible.

The idea that Judah; specifically the Jewish State of Israel, has a special part to play in the end times, is not Biblical.
They face Judgment and punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27. +

No, John saw them from Heaven, where do you think Rev 7:9-17 is at????Heaven....

I laugh at your supposed idea of the palm branches being translated, along with those saints. All just confused and unbiblical error.

See Rev. 7:9.." After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

My information about Gods Plans for our future, comes exclusively from the Bible.

I see, do you want to talk about this for a bit..If so, we need to narrow it down to one or two things.

The idea that Judah; specifically the Jewish State of Israel, has a special part to play in the end times, is not Biblical.
They face Judgment and punishment in the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 22:14, Romans 9:27. +

Keep in mind that 2/3 of the Jewish population at Daniel's 70th week beginnings will die...the remaining 1/3 will be the remnant of Israel. You said this your self....We are speaking of the same thing...Except, the Remnant will live in the Millennium (1,000 years) on earth (kingdom on earth)

This assumption is wrong, Heaven is never mentioned in Rev 7. They are on earth, in the holy Land.
I laugh at your supposed idea of the palm branches being translated, along with those saints. All just confused and unbiblical error.

Yes it is! In addition, The tribulation saints are seen at Rev 6:9 under the altar by John is in Heaven. Please read what it says and take it a literal value...then go to rev 7:9

 

[Keraz]

See Rev. 7:9.." After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

No mention of heaven there.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene, there is no indication of a change in location.

I see, do you want to talk about this for a bit..If so, we need to narrow it down to one or two things.

I suggest you read the introductory page of my logostelos.info website.

Keep in mind that 2/3 of the Jewish population at Daniel's 70th week beginnings will die...the remaining 1/3 will be the remnant of Israel. You said this your self....We are speaking of the same thing...Except, the Remnant will live in the Millennium (1,000 years) on earth (kingdom on earth)

Zechariah 13:8 says; the remaining third will have to pass thru fire.....This means the dross will be removed and discarded.
From the many other Prophesies about the Judgment and punishment of Judah, that remnant will not be very many.

It will be the faithful Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will be with Jesus on earth for the Millennium.

In addition, The tribulation saints are seen at Rev 6:9 under the altar by John is in Heaven

It is the Trib martyrs whose souls are kept under the Altar. They will not be brought back to life until Jesus Returns. Rev 20:4

 

[Bladerunner]

No mention of heaven there.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene, there is no indication of a change in location.

Please read the verse again..the white robs will give it away...in chapters 4 and 5, those who are in heaven, elders, etc. are wearing white robs. Even the chapt 6:9 tribulation saints were in heaven under the altar given white robs.

As far as an earthly scene, I agree with you on chapter seven. In fact, the way it reads, MOST of it actually happened before chapter 6 and the opening of the seals. Have you not seen the difference from chapters 4/5 to 6 to 18. the church is not mentioned but rather the tone is all Jewish. Even down to the names of the Jesus. the Lion, etc. It is all to put the Jews "up against the wall" so to speak. Why? because of their religion to is legalism because many do not believe even today that Jesus is the Meshach Nagid (the Messiah, the King). During Daniel's 70th week the remnant of the jews who will believe in Jesus as their king will flee Judeae when the "Abomination of Desolate" happens in the temple as stated in Mat 24. Are you to be one of them...You are certainly going to be left behind....thus are you an elect of GOD or are you one of those many called...Only you and GOD can make that answerr but you should be asking it. God's blessing , Good NIght.

I suggest you read the introductory page of my logostelos.info website.

Zechariah 13:8 says; the remaining third will have to pass thru fire.....This means the dross will be removed and discarded.
From the many other Prophesies about the Judgment and punishment of Judah, that remnant will not be very many.

It will be the faithful Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will be with Jesus on earth for the Millennium.

It is the Trib martyrs whose souls are kept under the Altar. They will not be brought back to life until Jesus Returns. Rev 20:4

 

[Keraz]

You are certainly going to be left behind..

Gee; thanks for that, It is my desire to remain on earth where I can do the tasks the Lord has given me.
You are welcome to sit in heaven, doing harp practice.

 

[Bladerunner]

Gee; thanks for that, It is my desire to remain on earth where I can do the tasks the Lord has given me.
You are welcome to sit in heaven, doing harp practice.

you do recognize that like those under the altar (Rev 6:9), have to lose their heads or die in a terrible manner in the name of Jesus Christ. The problem is, how many like you say 'I will simply stay behind and die for Him when needed....Yet, what happens if you die before you get the chance..This world is going to be turned upside down and when Daniel's 70th week begins, 3.75 billion people are going to die in the first 3.5 years according God's WORD>