Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection?

[MatthewG]

Don't play the victim here and don't suggest I hold to Calvinism by insisting you to work with the Scriptures.
What you hate is food for my soul.

You have a blessed day.

J.

This is always the come to comment "don't play the victim."

...

Bro I am just telling you how I see things. You can disagree... but anyway this is a waste of time.





There are people out there who you even quote that may have misaligned ideas and stuff so I just don't trust man, all that much when it comes to what they desire, compared to what God and what he desires for us as followers of his son to do.

 

[MatthewG]

@Johann Matthew hears voices in his dreams, so these voices if different to the Word, the voices are authoritive.

This is slander.... Making up false things... I never have claimed.


Slander is a legal term that refers to a false, oral statement about an individual that harms his reputation or standing within the community. Slander is not a crime, but a civil wrong that is subject to being held responsible in a civil lawsuit. Statements made about a person must be factual, or they must express the legitimate opinion of the speaker. Statements that are made in anger or malice, which are untrue, are commonly viewed as slander. To explore this concept, consider the following slander definition.

 

[Johann]

@Johann Matthew hears voices in his dreams, so these voices if different to the Word, the voices are authoritive.

I've found many Christians who spiritualize everything and read into the Word what they want to see. This goes beyond confirmation bias, it's delusion on a crazy level. It means your not able to have a basis of discussion unless you hear the same voice's Matthew hears in his head.

If the Lord returns soon we all will be corrected, but some more than others

F2F

Dear Lord, please help.

J.

 

[MatthewG]

Anyway, @TonyChanYT you still around?

You got a good article.

 

[face2face]

This is slander.... Making up false things... I never have claimed.


Slander is a legal term that refers to a false, oral statement about an individual that harms his reputation or standing within the community. Slander is not a crime, but a civil wrong that is subject to being held responsible in a civil lawsuit. Statements made about a person must be factual, or they must express the legitimate opinion of the speaker. Statements that are made in anger or malice, which are untrue, are commonly viewed as slander. To explore this concept, consider the following slander definition.

Is it true? You don't want to discuss the Scriptures so how else do your form your beliefs?

 

[MatthewG]

Is it true? You don't want to discuss the Scriptures so how else do your form your beliefs?

It's called my choice of words of whatever I choose to do. You want me to play a game but I don't wanna play your little game. If people wanna read the bible, they will read it, if they want background information on historical things in those places they will seek for it. Ive done my fair share of reading the bible.


I don't wanna play your games. I don't wanna go over things I already have links to for people to check out.

God through Christ has reconciled the world unto Himself.

Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide. #2 The End of Material Religion # 14 For your consideration. -> A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON...

www.christianityboard.com

People get an idea of my general points of interest... I don't have to say anything anymore...


God is good. Im thankful for Yahavah and the Lord Yeshua. Thankful for you and even Johann..

But I don't gotta play games of man... if people want information, visit your local church, ask for a bible, start there, and seek if you want truth.

 

[face2face]

Tony's OP was good and seems to have a good understanding the Hades is the grave. The Lake of Fire is speaking to events of God's judgements on Catholic Europe.

Again its figurative language which needs to be unpacked.

F2F

 

[face2face]

It's called my choice of words of whatever I choose to do. You want me to play a game but I don't wanna play your little game. If people wanna read the bible, they will read it, if they want background information on historical things in those places they will seek for it. Ive done my fair share of reading the bible.


I don't wanna play your games. I don't wanna go over things I already have links to for people to check out.

God through Christ has reconciled the world unto Himself.

Link Directive - All considerable information for the benefit of skeptics, believers, or unbelievers. Keep growing and maturing, look at the scriptures and seek truth, and may the spirit guide. #2 The End of Material Religion # 14 For your consideration. -> A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON...

www.christianityboard.com

People get an idea of my general points of interest... I don't have to say anything anymore...


God is good. Im thankful for Yahavah and the Lord Yeshua. Thankful for you and even Johann..

But I don't gotta play games of man... if people want information, visit your local church, ask for a bible, start there, and seek if you want truth.

Fair enough, you are entitled to these comments and your position, however don't "draw back" from those you engage with you when the conversation becomes too hard.

Looks weak and beggarly.

F2F

 

[MatthewG]

Fair enough, you are entitled to these comments and your position, however don't "draw back" from those you engage with you when the conversation becomes too hard.

Looks weak and beggarly.

F2F

Even Jesus didnt answer all questions mate. Peace.

 

[face2face]

Even Jesus didnt answer all questions mate. Peace.

Yeah but he had wisdom and knowledge - a fountain of living waters, and usually he showed the curtesy of asking a question from a question. You present as just being rude.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This statement “the spirits of just men made perfect” doesn’t mean what you assume it means.
The Greek word “spirit” (pneuma) when used in relation to humans or animals has the same meaning…..
It can mean…..

1. “the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2. the soul”

Animals as well as humans are “souls” (air breathers) and can be said to be “spirited”….so the spirit found in “just men” is a strong and vibrant one, which remains true to the teachings of the Christ, no matter what others wish to believe or promote.
Since “few” are to be found on the road to life (Matt 7:13-14) and the majority have been taken off a superhighway to death....look for the hated and persecuted minority that others accuse of being heretics.....

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This also a misinterpretation because if you read it in context, Paul is addressing the Christian “body” as a whole, not individuals, as if they are made up of three components. Humans were created with a body, but they do not “have” a “soul”....they are a soul. Their spirit is the driving force in their personality, like the one displayed by Jesus and his apostles.

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Again, this is misunderstood because of the false teaching of an immortal soul.
Paul knew that in order to be resurrected to heaven, he would need to die in the flesh and be resurrected as a spirit, the same way Jesus was. Flesh and blood are earth bound and cannot exist outside of earth’s oxygenated atmosphere.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

This is simply an acknowledgment that “to be present” with Jesus means not being in a fleshly body anymore. It means that they have to die, since you can only resurrect a dead person. They look forward to ditching their bodies of flesh which confine them to the earth, and to take on immortal spirit bodies, which can dwell in heaven, in the presence of God....a privilege that only God can grant them.

Though the elect are resurrected in spirit form, as Jesus was......not all Christians are of that class.....not all can be “kings and priests” who are resurrected “first”. (Rev 20:6) They have a specific role in relation to redeemed humanity. (Rev 21:2-4)

With Christ, these will take us back into reconciliation with God and bring us back to his original purpose....to have an earth filled with faithful worshippers of God....those who have proven their faith “unto death”, will inherit life. Those who have yet to prove their faith, who died in ignorance, will be given that opportunity. (John 5:28-29)
Those of the elect still on earth when Jesus manifests as judge, will be instantly “transformed”, which is a totally different thing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ultimately, most traditional Christian interpretations see hell as part of the final judgment and not something that has already concluded. Whether hell is eternal or temporary depends on one's theological framework, but in the majority view, hell remains a future reality for those who do not accept salvation through Christ.

Do you subscribe to the “traditional Christian interpretation” yourself Johann? Where did the “traditional interpretation” originate? I can tell you now...it was not from any Jewish belief in an afterlife. Their Scripture is devoid of such notions. Jesus stuck to scripture, rather than adopted ideas from outside of it.

Matt 15:7-9....Jesus said to the Jewish leaders.....
“You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”

Those “commands of men” became the “traditions” they subscribed to, rather than the word of God, making their worship futile. Christendom has made the same errors....and nowhere is this more obvious that in translating different words with different meanings as “hell”.

“Sheol” as you may be aware was translated as “hades” in the Greek Septuagint, widely read in Jesus day.
“Sheol” was simply the common grave of all mankind.....as Jewish scripture did not teach about an afterlife or immortal souls. They adopted Greek ideas later on.
So “hades”, often translated as “hell”, is no more scary that going to “sleep” with the prospect of waking up. That is what resurrection is after all....an awakening from the sleep of death.

“Gehenna”, OTOH, is another word erroneously translated as “hell”......it is tied in with “the lake of fire”, which the Bible calls the “second death”. Why is it called the “second death”? Because those who die this “second death”, never wake up. It has connotations of everlasting destruction......which will be as though these ones never existed. Only God knows who is in Gehenna....we do not.

What we do know is that “death and hades” (hell) yield up their occupants......those in “hades” will be resurrected. (Rev 20:13-14)

Since you seem to be knowledgeable about Biblical things, can you tell me the origin of the word “Gehenna” and what Jesus was alluding to about those who find themselves in this place, where “the worms do not die and the fire is never extinguished”?
Jesus’ Jewish audience knew exactly what he meant, but later apostate Bible translator’s had to graft their hellfire teachings into what Jesus said.

They did the same with “the rich man and Lazarus” grafting over what the Jews knew him to mean, to accommodate their false doctrine of an immortal soul. There is no such doctrine taught in all of Scripture.

The dead are actually dead......they “sleep” peacefully until it is time to awaken them. We have nothing to fear but fear itself....and the devil knows it.

 

[Jack]

“Gehenna, OTOH, is another word erroneously translated as “hell”......it is tied in with “the lake of fire”, which the Bible calls the “second death”. Why is it called the “second death”? Because those who die this “second death”, never wake up. It has connotations of everlasting destruction......which will be as though these ones never existed. Only God knows who is in Gehenna....we do not.

JW's will wish they were destroyed! They're not gonna like their eternal roommates!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[face2face]

The dead are actually dead......they “sleep” peacefully until it is time to awaken them. We have nothing to fear but fear itself....and the devil knows it.

All correct except for that false comment at the end!
So close to truth - drives me crazy to see you infected with Greek Mythology.
F2F

 

[face2face]

JW's will wish they were destroyed! They're not gonna like their eternal roommates!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jack, jack, jack

 

[MatthewG]

Whether you see me rude or not @face2face. I forgive your slander. You liking me is the least of my problems or issues I face in life.

I don’t know how old you are, your mental state, or if you just like to have the last word as though you’re God himself.

It be nice if you just leave me be.

Thank you, God bless, and take care.

 

[face2face]

Whether you see me rude or not @face2face. I forgive your slander. You liking me is the least of my problems or issues I face in life.

I don’t know how old you are, your mental state, or if you just like to have the last word as though you’re God himself.

It be nice if you just leave me be.

Thank you, God bless, and take care.

Enjoy your peace and quiet Matthew.

 

[Johann]

Do you subscribe to the “traditional Christian interpretation” yourself Johann? Where did the “traditional interpretation” originate? I can tell you now...it was not from any Jewish belief in an afterlife. Their Scripture is devoid of such notions. Jesus stuck to scripture, rather than adopted ideas from outside of it.

@Aunty Jane

THE DEAD, WHERE ARE THEY? (SHEOL/HADES, GEHENNA, TARTARUS)

Old Testament

All humans go to Sheol (there are no Semitic cognate roots and the etymology is uncertain, BDB 982, KB 1368), which was a way of referring to the place where the dead live or the grave, mostly in Wisdom Literature and Isaiah. In the OT it was a shadowy, conscious, but joyless existence (cf. Job 10:21-22; 38:17)

Sheol characterized
a place of descent, Num. 16:30; Job 7:9; Ps. 88:3-4; Isa. 29:4; 57:9
associated with God's judgment (fire), Deut. 32:22
a prison with gates, Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18; Job 2:6
a land of no return, Job 7:9 (an Akkadian title for death)
a land/realm of darkness, Job 10:21-22; 17:13; 18:18; Ps. 88:6; Lam. 3:6
a place of silence, Ps. 28:1; 31:17; 94:17; 115:17; Isa. 47:5
associated with punishment even before Judgment Day, Ps. 18:4-5
associated with abaddon (destruction; see SPECIAL TOPIC: ABADDON. . .APOLLYON), in which God is also present, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Amos 9:2
associated with "the Pit" (grave), Ps.16:10; 88:3; Isa. 14:15; Ezek. 31:15-17
wicked descend alive into Sheol, Num. 16:30,33; Job 7:9; Ps. 55:15
personified often as an animal with a large mouth, Num. 16:30; Pro. 1:12; Isa. 5:14; Hab. 2:5
people there called Repha'im (i.e., "spirits of the dead"), Job 26:5; Pro. 2:18; 21:16; 26:14 Isa. 14:9-11)
however, YHWH is present even here, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Pro. 15:11

New Testament

The Hebrew Sheol is translated in the Greek Septuagint as Hades (the unseen world)

Hades characterized (much like Sheol)
refers to death, Matt. 16:18
linked to death, Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14
often analogous to the place of permanent punishment (Gehenna), Matt. 11:23 OT quote); Luke 10:15; 16:23-24
often analogous to the grave, Luke 16:23

Possibly divided (rabbis)
righteous part called Paradise (really another name for heaven, cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7), Luke 23:43
wicked part called Tartarus, a holding place far below Hades, 2 Peter 2:4, where it is a holding place for evil angels (cf. Genesis 6; I Enoch). It is associated with the "Abyss," Luke 8:31; Rom. 10:7; Rev. 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:18; 20:1,3

Gehenna
Reflects the OT phrase, "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," (south of Jerusalem). It was the place where the Phoenician fire god, Molech (BDB 574, KB 591; see SPECIAL TOPIC: MOLECH), was worshiped by child sacrifice (cf. 2 Kgs. 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6), which was forbidden in Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5.

Jeremiah changed it from a place of pagan worship into a site of YHWH's judgment (cf. Jer. 7:32; 19:6-7). It became the place of fiery, eternal judgment in I Enoch 90:26-27 and Sib. 1:103.
The Jews of Jesus' day were so appalled by their ancestors' participation in pagan worship by child sacrifice, that they turned this area into the garbage dump for Jerusalem. Much of Jesus' imagery for eschatological judgment came from this landfill (fire, smoke, worms, stench, cf. Mark 9:44,46). The term Gehenna is used only by Jesus (except once in James 3:6).

Jesus' usage of Gehenna
fire, Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43,48 (also 1 Enoch and 2 Baruch)
permanent, Mark 9:48 (Matt. 25:41,46)
place of destruction (both soul and body), Matt. 10:28
paralleled to Sheol, Matt. 5:29-30; 18:9
characterizes the wicked as "son of hell," Matt. 23:15
result of judicial sentence, Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5 (also Sibylline Oracles)
the concept of Gehenna is parallel to the second death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14) or the lake of fire (cf. Matt. 13:42,50; Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14-15; 21:8). It is possible the lake of fire becomes the permanent dwelling place of humans (from Sheol) and evil angels (from Tartarus, 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 or the abyss, cf. Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1-11; 20:1,3).
it was not designed for humans, but for Satan and his angels, Matt. 25:41

It is possible, because of the overlap of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna that
originally all humans went to Sheol/Hades
their experience there (good/bad) is exacerbated after Judgment Day, but the place of the wicked remains the same (this is why the KJV translated hades (grave) as gehenna (hell)
the only NT text to mention torment before Judgment is the parable of Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the Rich Man). Sheol is also described as a place of punishment now (cf. Deut. 32:22; Ps. 18:1-5). However, one cannot establish a doctrine on a parable.

Intermediate state between death and resurrection

The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul apart from the body" which is one of several ancient Greek views of the after life, which asserts that
human souls exist before their physical life
human souls are eternal before and after physical death
often the physical body is seen as a prison and death as release back to pre-existent state (i.e., Greek thought)

The NT hints at a disembodied state between death and resurrection
Jesus speaks of a division between body and soul, Matt. 10:28 (see SPECIAL TOPIC: BODY AND SPIRIT)
Abraham may already have a body, Mark 12:26-27; Luke 16:23
Moses and Elijah have a physical body at the transfiguration, Matthew 17
Paul asserts that at the Second Coming dead believers with Christ will get their new bodies first, 1 Thess. 4:13-18
Paul asserts that believers get their new spiritual bodies on Resurrection Day, 1 Cor. 15:23,52
Paul asserts that believers do not go to Hades, but at death are with Jesus, 2 Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:23. Jesus overcame death and takes the righteous to heaven with Him, 1 Pet. 3:18-22.
For a brief discussion of the disembodied state see Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., pp. 545, 1181-1190

Heaven (see SPECIAL TOPIC: HEAVEN)

This term is used in three senses in the Bible.
the atmosphere above the earth, Gen. 1:1,8; Isa. 42:5; 45:18
the starry heavens, Gen. 1:14; Deut. 10:14; Ps. 148:4; Heb. 4:14; 7:26
the place of God's throne, Deut. 10:14; 1 Kgs. 8:27; Ps. 148:4; Eph. 4:10; Heb. 9:24 (third heaven, 2 Cor. 12:2; see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE HEAVENS AND THE THIRD HEAVEN)

The Bible does not reveal much about the afterlife, probably because fallen humans have no way or capacity to understand (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9).

Heaven is both a place (cf. John 14:2-3) and a person (cf. 2 Cor. 5:6,8). Heaven may be a restored Garden of Eden (Genesis 1-2; Revelation 21-22; see SPECIAL TOPIC: GARDEN OF EDEN). The earth will be cleansed and restored (cf. Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:21; 2 Pet. 3:10). The image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) is restored by believers' faith relationship with Christ. Now the intimate fellowship of the Garden of Eden is possible again.

Heaven as a huge, cubed city of Rev. 21:9-27 is imagery and not literal. 1 Corinthians 15 describes the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body as a seed to the mature plant. Again, 1 Cor. 2:9 (a quote from Isa. 64:4 and 65:17) is a great promise and hope! I know that when we see Him we will be like Him (cf. 1 John 3:2).

SPECIAL TOPIC: WHERE ARE THE DEAD?

Where are the Dead? -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Johann My question was “do you subscribe to the traditional Christian interpretation” of hell?.....I can see a lot of references and most are misinterpretations of Jewish Scripture as understood in the light of what those Scriptures taught the orignal Jews, as opposed to how many of the later Rabbis chose to interpret them.
By referencing all those sources, have you come to a personal position on the condition of the dead?

I heard a rabbi once say that if you asked 10 Jews the same question, you would get 10 different answers and they would all be right....Jesus demonstrated how reliable Jewish interpretation of Scripture was. (Matt 15:7-9)

In my own studies, I went back to Genesis and started at the beginning to ascertain why God put us mortal humans on this lovingly prepared earth “in the beginning”, and what he commanded us to do? What was our purpose here?...and how long did God intend for us to inhabit this planet? What did “death” mean to Adam?

Once I got that memo, the rest just fell into place. Genesis tells us all we need to know about why we are here and what the future holds for mankind in the future. God’s simple statement regarding his purpose is set in concrete (Isa 55:11) but the route he takes to accomplish it, may take several detours.

How do you fit your interpretation of “hell” or the afterlife into God’s orignal purpose? Can you tell me from the Scriptures, why God created us here, and what his instructions for the first humans meant in the big picture?

 

[Johann]

@Johann My question was “do you subscribe to the traditional Christian interpretation” of hell?.....I can see a lot of references and most are misinterpretations of Jewish Scripture as understood in the light of what those Scriptures taught the orignal Jews, as opposed to how many of the later Rabbis chose to interpret them.
By referencing all those sources, have you come to a personal position on the condition of the dead?

I heard a rabbi once say that if you asked 10 Jews the same question, you would get 10 different answers and they would all be right....Jesus demonstrated how reliable Jewish interpretation of Scripture was. (Matt 15:7-9)

In my own studies, I went back to Genesis and started at the beginning to ascertain why God put us mortal humans on this lovingly prepared earth “in the beginning”, and what he commanded us to do? What was our purpose here?...and how long did God intend for us to inhabit this planet? What did “death” mean to Adam?

Once I got that memo, the rest just fell into place. Genesis tells us all we need to know about why we are here and what the future holds for mankind in the future. God’s simple statement regarding his purpose is set in concrete (Isa 55:11) but the route he takes to accomplish it, may take several detours.

How do you fit your interpretation of “hell” or the afterlife into God’s orignal purpose? Can you tell me from the Scriptures, why God created us here, and what his instructions for the first humans meant in the big picture?

You’re raising a lot of questions, and it’s making me wonder what denomination you’re part of. It seems like we’re reading the same Bible but arriving at different interpretations, similar to how rabbis often offer a variety of answers to the same question.

Before we continue, could you let me know what denomination you’re affiliated with? That will help us better understand each other as we go forward in this discussion.

J.