ANOTHER FACTOR THAT PROVES AMIL FALSE, PAUL WISHED FOR A RESURRECTION OF THE UNJUST ALSO

[TheHC]

The idea of a second chance at salvation after death is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

Sure it is! What do you think the Resurrection of the unrighteous, and their following judgment (Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29), is about?

The judgment they receive is concerning their actions after their resurrection. Death was the payment for their previous sins! — Romans 6:7,23.

What? Where do you come up with this stuff? All Christians are chosen/elect and go to heaven.

No. There are Christ’s “brothers” (who are the chosen), and there are the “sheep” class, whom Jesus says have done good things “to” His “brothers”. - Matthew 25:31-45.

These ones are not His brothers, but are still followers of Christ.
They make up the “meek / mild tempered [who will] inherit the Earth”, as Jesus stated at Matthew 5:5. See Psalm 37:10,11,29

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure it is! What do you think the Resurrection of the unrighteous, and their following judgment (Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29), is about?

The judgment they receive is concerning their actions after their resurrection. Death was the payment for their previous sins! — Romans 6:7,23.

Where are you getting this from? Why would it say they are resurrected to "damnation" (John 5:28-29) and to "shame and everlasting contempt" if they get a chance to repent after being resurrected? Scripture never teaches such a thing.

No. There are Christ’s “brothers” (who are the chosen), and there are the “sheep” class, whom Jesus says have done good things “to” His “brothers”. - Matthew 25:31-45.

We (Christians) are all His "brothers" and His sheep.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Notice that Jesus was talking to His disciples here, but then expanded what He was talking about it to "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

These ones are not His brothers, but are still followers of Christ.

Nonsense.

They make up the “meek / mild tempered [who will] inherit the Earth”, as Jesus stated at Matthew 5:5. See Psalm 37:10,11,29

All who follow Christ are meek because His followers are all humble/meek servants who submit to Him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Where are you getting this from? Why would it say they are resurrected to "damnation" (John 5:28-29) and to "shame and everlasting contempt" if they get a chance to repent after being resurrected? Scripture never teaches such a thing.

Go to a Concordance and see that the word is not “damnation” but “judgment”.

Strongs defines this word as…

“κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.”

This is not a resurrection to simply sentence one to punishment for all the wrongs they committed in their ignorance.….as it says in Romans 6:7….cited by @TheHC ….
”for he who has died is freed from sin.” Did you never read that? We are freed from our previous sin at death. This is why the resurrected ones will be put ‘on trial’, in a period of “judgment” so “justice” can be served. God wants to give everyone the same chance at life.

What was the highest penalty paid under God’s law? DEATH…..these ones have paid sins wages (Rom 6:23) and are resurrected now under “judgment” not condemnation…..if they have paid for their sins with their own death, that is like a man sentenced to an extended prison term, who, after he has served his time, is then able to walk free to live his life again……but unlike that prisoner, the resurrected “unrighteous“ ones were not consciously suffering in a literal prison, theirs is a prison that no one could escape from because only one person had “the keys of death and hades” (the grave) Jesus Christ. (Rev 1:18)

Freed from their prison, this is a period where they now have an opportunity to turn their life around….to accept Jesus as their savior because his death saved their lives too…even before there was any knowledge of him in the world.

So, where are these ”righteous and unrighteous“ ones resurrected from? Jesus says he calls all of these ones from their tombs……so they are all still in them….”sleeping” in death….humans going all the way back to Abel will come back to life.

Justice demands that they have an opportunity to learn about the God they never knew, and his means for their own salvation. How is that not fair?

We (Christians) are all His "brothers" and His sheep.

These “brothers of Christ” are the elect, who are supported by the sheep whilst still on earth, doing good deeds to them. (Matt 25:31-46) These “brothers“ of Christ are also “Sons of God”….
Jesus has “brothers”…..God has “sons”.

Two groups are seen in John’s Revelation…..

Rev 7:2-4; 9-10, 13-14…
”And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . . After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”. . . . Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.“ (NASB)

The ones who are “sealed” are the elect (a finite group, chosen by God who are all Israelites, (but not of the flesh)…these are Christ’s “brothers”….spiritual “Israel” (Gal 6:16) who will rule in his kingdom with him as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6)…..but the second group is from all tribes and nations of the earth…..completely separate, pictured with palm branches in their hands signifying their peaceful condition.
These merit salvation too as those who will “inherit the earth” as Jesus said.

There are two separate groups, with two separate destinies….but God is the one who chooses where they will spend eternity. All are happy to serve God no mater where that is….there is no jealousy or rivalry among them.

There is so much detail that is missing in “church theology” that the Bible clearly states. This is why we need to study the Bible to see what all of it teaches.

Matthew 12:46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Here Jesus is speaking about relationships that his Jewish audience understood. It is the reason why we call one another “brother” and “sister” because we all have the same Father….the same “Father” that Jesus himself has. (John 20:17)

Notice that Jesus was talking to His disciples here, but then expanded what He was talking about it to "whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

The elect began to be chosen when Christ walked the earth…..prior to that no one in the Jewish understanding of Messiah’s role ever imagined that they were going to heaven….it was never mentioned.

Only with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, was this revealed to his 120 faithful disciples gathered in that upper room…..these now understood that the Kingdom would rule from heaven over redeemed mankind on earth, bringing them back to God’s first purpose for them.

Where did God create humans to live forever? Not heaven…..he created the earth for us, and we for the earth. In the creation account, there is no mention of death except as a punishment for disobedience.
Gen 3:22-24 tells us what happened then.

All who follow Christ are meek because His followers are all humble/meek servants who submit to Him.

Meekness is a quality that Jesus looks for in his disciples and at the time of his choosing his apostles, the very Jewish trait of self importance was a hard lesson for them to overcome. They constantly argued over ‘who among them was the greatest’…..by the time he left the earthly scene that trait was vanquished.

But if the “meek” are going to “inherit the earth”, then who goes to heaven? If those who are taken to heaven are to be “kings and priests”….who then are their subjects? For whom do they act as priests if not the redeemed sinners who will be brought back to sinless perfection during the thousand years of Kingdom rule.
It is all designed to take us back to God’s first purpose for the human race……what was that?
Can you tell us?

 

[PS95]

At what time was that recorded? To whom was it written? It was to Christians in the first century.
Any who have knowledge of Jesus Christ and his message of salvation are judged by him as to how they respond to his message. (Matt 10:11-14) People in this time period will have no excuse. Like Judaism, Christianity was at first localized to one people, in one nation…..but when Christ came and offered his life, Christianity was to spread out into “the entire inhabited earth”…..there would be no excuses for ignorance after that. (Matt 24:14) Who today have not heard the Christian message? Who will be able to say to the judge….“no one told me I had choices”?

But before that when people had no knowledge of Christ and his sacrifice, why would God not give them a second chance….does he not want “all to receive salvation”? Is that justice?……to be convicted of a crime you did not commit except in ignorance. Those who sinned in ignorance way before God gave his law cannot be convicted and sentenced without first being given opportunity to change their ways. Repentance is all God requires. He has no need to take life unless someone has committed a crime…..if there was no law, there was no crime. Is God unjust?

The “unrighteous” are raised to “judgment” not “condemnation” unless they fail to repent.
Look up the meaning of those words in Greek. No one is condemned unless their conduct warrants it. You cannot break a law that does not exist.

People do get second chances…..look at Manasseh…..and King David. Both deserved the death penalty for their crimes, but God spared their lives and forgave them because they repented.

WOOO hoooo oh Jane. Calling Dearest Aunty JW Jane---am I back on your JW shun list? Oh come on. WHY? Did Jesus' death pay for our sins?! It's so very key!! Shall I make that thread that I spoke of? Why did you ignore me again? Are you afraid that I will show people what JWs really teach about the atonement? Truth doesn't hide in darkness.
TheHC is welcome to come along for the fun. She always does. You guys like to travel in packs..

 

[TheHC]

All who follow Christ are meek because His followers are all humble/meek servants who submit to Him.

We all should try to be meek, shouldn’t we?
But that wasn’t really my point…

These meek ones (at Matthew 5:5) will “inherit the earth.” And that “the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.” Psalm 37:11,29.

Your quote from Daniel 12, about those who will be resurrected “to everlasting contempt”, is informing us that those won’t learn meekness (they won’t truly conform their lives), so they will be judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign, & will ultimately be “consumed”, ie., destroyed. — Revelation 20:7-9

(Notice the “earth” is mentioned, twice: “those nations in the four corners of the earth”, & “the whole earth.”)

Revelation 21:3,4 says God’s “tent is with mankind.” Mankind are people on this planet.

 

[PGS11]

I believe in Jesus he knew what he was doing I completely trust in him.It just feels he will have enough Love for all in the end how ever it works out.It is what I believe I am just a too christian christian.

 

[Davy]

You clearly didn’t read what I actually wrote, or you’re deliberately twisting it. Nowhere did I say the unjust would be saved, what I pointed out, and what Scripture clearly teaches, is that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, just like Paul said in Acts 24:15. That’s not a “doctrine of men,” that’s the Word of God. Revelation 20 confirms this with two distinct resurrections: the first for the righteous who reign with Christ, and the second for the wicked who are judged after the thousand years (Revelation 20:4–6, 11–15). There is nothing “implied” about it, Scripture lays out the timeline plainly.

As for your claim that Revelation 3:9 proves the enemies of God will worship at the feet of the elect during the thousand-year reign, you’re completely misusing that passage. Jesus was speaking specifically to the church in Philadelphia, not giving a prophecy about the Millennium. That’s reading your assumptions into the text, not taking it as written. Same with Zechariah 14, it describes nations worshiping during the reign of the Messiah, but says nothing about the final resurrection or judgment of the wicked dead. You’re stringing together unrelated passages to support a flawed system.

And regarding Hebrews 9:27, you’re right, it doesn’t say when the judgment happens. But when we let Scripture interpret Scripture, we see the timing laid out in Revelation 20. The fact that you’re so quick to accuse others of adding to the text while you’re inserting your own assumptions should be a warning. Stop scoffing at plain Scripture. The resurrection of the unjust is not something Paul or John made up, it’s part of God’s revealed plan. Just because you don’t like the order God gave doesn’t make it a “doctrine of men.” What I posted stands firmly on what is written.

I read what you wrote, and you tried to claim I was going against the written Bible Scripture, but I revealed instead that it was YOU... that goes against the written Bible Scripture with your attempt to use the Hebrews 9:27 verse to serve your FALSE AMIL DOCTRINES FROM MEN, when Revelation 20 reveals the wicked are not judged to perish until AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign, AS WRITTEN...

Rev 20:5-12
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

So instead of trying to tell me to read, it is you that needs to do more reading in God's Word AS WRITTEN, and quit listening to men's doctrines.

 

[Davy]

Jesus destroy's all the wicked at his return, read it again in your denial

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Your Bible is MISSING the Revelation 20 Chapter, no wonder YOU ARE SO DECEIVED!

Rev 20:1-9
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Paul was on trial - for the resurrection of the dead. v21.
....

You need to learn to address the actual Bible Scripture I quoted, instead of going off on irrelevant tangents with allegorical applications of other Scripture to try and use as a pry-bar to serve your false doctrines of men.

 

[Truth7t7]

Your Bible is MISSING the Revelation 20 Chapter, no wonder YOU ARE SO DECEIVED!

Rev 20:1-9
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
KJV

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Go to a Concordance and see that the word is not “damnation” but “judgment”.

Strongs defines this word as…

“κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law):—accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.”

This is not a resurrection to simply sentence one to punishment for all the wrongs they committed in their ignorance.….

LOL. This is a very weak argument. The judgment that awaits the resurrection of the unjust dead when Jesus comes again is being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:15).

How do you go about explaining away Daniel 12:2? Do you try to make "shame and everlasting contempt" mean something different than what it says?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We all should try to be meek, shouldn’t we?
But that wasn’t really my point…

These meek ones (at Matthew 5:5) will “inherit the earth.” And that “the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.” Psalm 37:11,29.

Your quote from Daniel 12, about those who will be resurrected “to everlasting contempt”, is informing us that those won’t learn meekness (they won’t truly conform their lives), so they will be judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign, & will ultimately be “consumed”, ie., destroyed. — Revelation 20:7-9

(Notice the “earth” is mentioned, twice: “those nations in the four corners of the earth”, & “the whole earth.”)

Revelation 21:3,4 says God’s “tent is with mankind.” Mankind are people on this planet.

What is the point of them being "judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign" if they just end up being destroyed, anyway? That's total nonsense.

 

[jeffweeder]

You need to learn to address the actual Bible Scripture I quoted, instead of going off on irrelevant tangents with allegorical applications of other Scripture to try and use as a pry-bar to serve your false doctrines of men.

I addressed your ideas of those scriptures by quoting Paul and Jesus teachings on the resurrection. You will do well to address them.

I asked you a question regarding what Paul taught in 2 Thess 1, and as always you are unable/ unwilling to engage.
So you need to learn to address the Bible scriptures I quoted, instead of going off on a tangent Lol.

 

[jeffweeder]

What is the point of them being "judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign" if they just end up being destroyed, anyway? That's total nonsense.

True.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “Whoever worships the beast and his image and receives the mark [of the beast] on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will [have to] drink of the wine of the wrath of God, mixed undiluted into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone (flaming sulfur) in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb (Christ). 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night—those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The Lord destroys the beast at his second coming, so everyone fate is sealed before he comes.


2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming. 9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

 

[Aunty Jane]

LOL. This is a very weak argument. The judgment that awaits the resurrection of the unjust dead when Jesus comes again is being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41, Rev 20:15).

When Christ manifests himself as judge, as @jeffweeder has highlighted, the goats will be dispatched because they were deceived into accepting “the mark of the beast” by promises of “peace and security” (1 Thess 5:1-6)…..so, by putting their faith in a man-made, satanically inspired world government, they will be their signing their own death warrant. Promises made by man are seldom ever carried out….but for some reason, humans still trust them.

God’s Kingdom is “not of this world” and only those who refuse “the mark of the beast” will be saved out of a great tribulation that will result from man’s response to global totalitarian rulership and enslavement.

Matt 25:41 shows us what will happen to those living at the time of Christ’s judgment…those who have accepted the mark of satan’s beastly world rulership. It does not mention the dead being judge then….only the living who fail the test of true Christian loyalty by being “no part of this world” (John 17:16; John 18:36)
The “goats” precede the devil and his hordes into the lake of fire…..it is “prepared” for them, but not until God has finished with them.

Rev 20:15 is about the end of the 1000 years, when satan is released from his prison to go out and mislead the redeemed ones who made it that far (Rev 20:1-3; 7-10)……with one final test, the now sinless human race will again be separated, where the genuine ones will remain, but those easily misled by satan’s old, tried and tested tricks, will forfeit their lives.

What then is God left with? The cream of the crop, tried and tested as to faithfulness in spite of all that the devil was permitted to do to them.

Job is our role model and a reading of his trials shows us that he was not made the subject of those awful events in vain…..he showed us what real faith means.…and what the devil is capable of doing to any of us…..and that God can undo all that the devil took from him, which includes bringing back the 10 children that he lost, in the resurrection that he believed in. (Job 14:13-15)

How do you go about explaining away Daniel 12:2? Do you try to make "shame and everlasting contempt" mean something different than what it says?

Daniel was not a Christian….he was a Jew with Jewish beliefs about the dead, and what resurrection meant to them.
After the first resurrection of the elect to heaven, (Rev 20:6) those who are to be part of the general resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29) would be brought back to life on earth, called out of their graves to one of two life situations…..one group who have lived and died faithful will be granted life…..but those who are judged as “unrighteous” (but not incorrigibly wicked) will be brought back to life and be given what, for the majority, will be their first chance at life.

Being educated in God’s ways and having satan absent from efforts to dissuade them, all those who may never have even heard of the true God or his Christ will be given all the information they will need to make their own choices. That is what the 1000 years is for….to bring a tried and tested human race back into line with God’s original purpose for us.

Can you tell me what that was?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Christ manifests himself as judge, as @jeffweeder has highlighted, the goats will be dispatched because they were deceived into accepting “the mark of the beast” by promises of “peace and security” (1 Thess 5:1-6)…..so, by putting their faith in a man-made, satanically inspired world government, they will be their signing their own death warrant. Promises made by man are seldom ever carried out….but for some reason, humans still trust them.

God’s Kingdom is “not of this world” and only those who refuse “the mark of the beast” will be saved out of a great tribulation that will result from man’s response to global totalitarian rulership and enslavement.

Matt 25:41 shows us what will happen to those living at the time of Christ’s judgment…those who have accepted the mark of satan’s beastly world rulership. It does not mention the dead being judge then….only the living who fail the test of true Christian loyalty by being “no part of this world” (John 17:16; John 18:36)
The “goats” precede the devil and his hordes into the lake of fire…..it is “prepared” for them, but not until God has finished with them.

Nope. The goats represent those whose names are not written in the book of life and they are cast into the lake of fire after "the devil and his hordes" are, according to Revelation 20:10-15.

Rev 20:15 is about the end of the 1000 years, when satan is released from his prison to go out and mislead the redeemed ones who made it that far (Rev 20:1-3; 7-10)……with one final test, the now sinless human race will again be separated, where the genuine ones will remain, but those easily misled by satan’s old, tried and tested tricks, will forfeit their lives.

You are trying to equate Rev 20:15 with Rev 20:7-9? That's utter nonsense. Revelation 20:15 clearly takes place AFTER Revelation 20:7-9 is over. Revelation 20:9 refers to PHYSICAL destruction by fire coming down upon people on the earth (like 2 Peter 3:10-12) and not to the lake of fire.

Daniel was not a Christian….he was a Jew with Jewish beliefs about the dead, and what resurrection meant to them.

Who inspired Daniel to write what he did? His own mind? Of course not! Hello? It was the Holy Spirit of God. Do you think the Holy Spirit did not have the correct understanding of the resurrection of the dead at the time Daniel wrote Daniel 12:2? Of course He did. So, this is yet another weak argument from you.

After the first resurrection of the elect to heaven, (Rev 20:6) those who are to be part of the general resurrection of the dead (John 5:28-29) would be brought back to life on earth, called out of their graves to one of two life situations…..one group who have lived and died faithful will be granted life…..but those who are judged as “unrighteous” (but not incorrigibly wicked) will be brought back to life and be given what, for the majority, will be their first chance at life.

Nonsense. Nowhere is such a concept taught in scripture. That idea contradicts much scripture. There are no second chances after death.

Being educated in God’s ways and having satan absent from efforts to dissuade them, all those who may never have even heard of the true God or his Christ will be given all the information they will need to make their own choices.

No, people who haven't heard of God/Christ will be judged by the standards that Paul outlined in Romans 1:18-2:16.

That is what the 1000 years is for….to bring a tried and tested human race back into line with God’s original purpose for us.

Where is this taught in scripture anywhere? Show me. If you just say Revelation 20 that won't cut it because that's a highly debatable passage. Surely, if this was true we could find this concept of some people being resurrected in order to "bring a tried and tested human race back into line with God’s original purpose for us" clearly taught in other scripture. So, show me the scripture.

Can you tell me what that was?

What God's purpose for us was? To have a personal relationship with Him. He makes that possible through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. No imaginary future 1000 years with resurrected people running around on the earth is needed to accomplish that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK let’s tackle this a bit at a time….

Nonsense. Nowhere is such a concept taught in scripture. That idea contradicts much scripture. There are no second chances after death.

If there were no second chances after death, then why give anyone a resurrection? Why bring back the “unrighteous” ones at all….where were they after death? If as some believe they have already gone to “hell” then what was the purpose in their resurrection? Can you tell me logically why God would do that?

No, people who haven't heard of God/Christ will be judged by the standards that Paul outlined in Romans 1:18-2:16.

I think that Romans 2:13-15 sums that up….
”for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” (NASB)

Isn’t this the criteria whereby all are ultimately judged…..hearers of the law who do not obey it are worse off than those who did not hear, but obey an unwritten law in their hearts…..obeying the voice of their conscience.
How else could God distinguish the “righteous” from the “unrighteous”? He brings them both back…..the “righteous” who have already proven themselves faithful to the death, who heard the teachings of the Christ and obeyed them during their lifetime, receive the reward of “life”….and the “unrighteous” who have not demonstrated faith due to many circumstances, especially those who were simply living a life that was the “norm” for them in their culture and religion. Having never really transgressed any law of God deserving of death, may have been subject to religious practices that were condemned in a law only given to Israel. Can these not then be given an opportunity to learn and comply? Is that unjust in your estimations. Doesn’t God himself say that he ‘desired no one to be destroyed’?….why would he not give them an opportunity to learn about him?

It is not the incorrigibly ‘wicked’ who are given a second chance, but those who have the potential to be educated so as to bring their thinking and practices into line with what Jesus taught?
That is just on God’s part confirming his love and applying his justice.

Where is this taught in scripture anywhere? Show me. If you just say Revelation 20 that won't cut it because that's a highly debatable passage.

It’s OK to quote Rev 20 to justify your own position, but you then say something like this when it doesn’t?
What is highly debatable in Rev 20? It’s one of my favorite chapters! In it is a wealth of information.

Surely, if this was true we could find this concept of some people being resurrected in order to "bring a tried and tested human race back into line with God’s original purpose for us" clearly taught in other scripture. So, show me the scripture.

The Bible is filled with tests of faith….Israel failed many of them. Their bad examples amply demonstrate why we should be obedient to God.

Job is a shining example of faith even though he lived in Patriarchal times, before Israel was a nation. He demonstrated the faith we all need to withstand the trials that the devil brings into our lives.

Abraham was tested too when he was asked to sacrifice his son….Jesus and his apostles also withstood various tests and trials and gave us the results of their victory…..the Christian faith……but sadly as Jesus warned us, the devil would corrupt that too, like he did everything else.

What God's purpose for us was? To have a personal relationship with Him. He makes that possible through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. No imaginary future 1000 years with resurrected people running around on the earth is needed to accomplish that.

Now this is telling…because it does not address the question. It begins about halfway through the story….
Why did we need such “a relationship with him” and his son, who only made an appearance thousands of years after the fall?

Since ‘1000 years to God is like one day’….(2 Peter 3:8)….why wouldn’t he allow a period of testing out his creation as to fitness for their eternal future?
The last thousand years (of Revelation) is under a rulership we have never had before….God’s Kingdom (Rev 21:2-4)…..and the only reason we will have it, is because of the disobedience of one man who plunged the entire human race into situation from which they could not extricate themselves. God had to send a rescuer to save us from a permanent cycle of life and inevitable death….bringing us back to our original condition. Enjoying creation with everlasting life…..with no sickness, no suffering and no death.
There was no mention of death in Genesis except as a penalty for disobedience….so it was never supposed to happen. Nothing that took place after the fall was supposed to happen, but it did, and God addressed it in a way that ensured that abuse of free will would never happen again. The end justifies the means.

Go back to the very beginning, and ask what kind of life God purposed for us humans on this lovingly prepared planet? Why are we here, and what did God tell the first humans to do?

Was free will a mistake? Without free will the devil could never have started his rebellion, and without free will, humans could never have disobeyed their Creator either. So why did Gd create us with free will in full knowledge of where it may lead us?

If you can answer those questions, you will see what Isaiah 55:11 means….

“So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.” (NASB)

What was our purpose here? And how will God accomplish what he initially set out to do?
Did he plan all this misery and suffering that we have undergone? Or did we bring it on ourselves?
God wants us to learn from our mistakes….because experience is the best teacher.

The Bible is one story….it begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation…..What we lost in the beginning is restored in the end. That is the Bible’s overarching message. Christ is how God accomplished it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK let’s tackle this a bit at a time….

If there were no second chances after death, then why give anyone a resurrection?

Is this a serious question? How else can people have immortal bodily life on the new earth, which is what God promises for those who belong to Christ, without being bodily resurrected first?

Why bring back the “unrighteous” ones at all….where were they after death?

They were in hell. The are brought back to appear before the throne for judgment in order to give an account of themselves and have it explained to them why they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

If as some believe they have already gone to “hell”

As some believe? Scripture repeatedly teaches that is where unbelievers go when they die. Jesus refers to the dead rich man as being in hell in Luke 16:19-31. Why would you not believe that?

then what was the purpose in their resurrection? Can you tell me logically why God would do that?

See above where I already answered this question. Also, the whole of human beings is their body, soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:23), so God intends for human beings to be made whole again in that sense and then spend eternity wherever He has determined for them.

I think that Romans 2:13-15 sums that up….
”for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” (NASB)

NASB? I thought Jehovah's Witnesses only used their own Bible translation (New World Translation). No? You believe the NASB is a trustworthy translation then? What others do you use? Just curious.

Anyway, I'll go ahead and read what you said about this passage now...

Isn’t this the criteria whereby all are ultimately judged…..hearers of the law who do not obey it are worse off than those who did not hear, but obey an unwritten law in their hearts…..obeying the voice of their conscience.

Yeah, so?

How else could God distinguish the “righteous” from the “unrighteous”? He brings them both back…..the “righteous” who have already proven themselves faithful to the death, who heard the teachings of the Christ and obeyed them during their lifetime, receive the reward of “life”….and the “unrighteous” who have not demonstrated faith due to many circumstances, especially those who were simply living a life that was the “norm” for them in their culture and religion. Having never really transgressed any law of God deserving of death, may have been subject to religious practices that were condemned in a law only given to Israel. Can these not then be given an opportunity to learn and comply? Is that unjust in your estimations. Doesn’t God himself say that he ‘desired no one to be destroyed’?….why would he not give them an opportunity to learn about him?

Are you reading everything that I'm saying? It seems not. I said that they will be judged by the standards that are given in Romans 1:18-2:16. Which means that no one has any excuse for not at least glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him while repenting of their sins, including the ones listed in Romans 1:18-32, instead of rebelling against Him. And, the reason no one has an excuse for that is because God makes Himself plain to everyone by what He has made (Romans 1:18-21). Why are you trying to give people an excuse for not having glorified God as God and being thankful to Him and for not repenting of their sins while they had the chance? Why do they need even more chances to do what they should have already done with the chances they already had?

It is not the incorrigibly ‘wicked’ who are given a second chance, but those who have the potential to be educated so as to bring their thinking and practices into line with what Jesus taught?
That is just on God’s part confirming his love and applying his justice.

You don't need to worry about injustice. We're talking about God here. He knows everyone's hearts intimately. He doesn't need to give people more chances for a thousand years in order to know what is in their hearts.

It’s OK to quote Rev 20 to justify your own position, but you then say something like this when it doesn’t?
What is highly debatable in Rev 20? It’s one of my favorite chapters! In it is a wealth of information.

LOL. Please be serious if you want to be taken seriously. Do you or not? How can you not know that Revelation 20 is highly debatable when it has been hotly debated for many, many years? It's not exactly the most clear, straightforward text in scripture. It's contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture, also.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is this a serious question? How else can people have immortal bodily life on the new earth, which is what God promises for those who belong to Christ, without being bodily resurrected first?

You do understand that there are two different resurrections spoken about in the Scriptures?
Both Jesus and Paul refer to those who are resurrected “first”……if there is a “first resurrection”, then logically another will follow. (1 Thess 4:16; Rev 20:6)

The “chosen ones” (“firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” Rev 14:1, 4) who are ”bought from the earth” are “resurrected first” and will be reigning with Christ in his Kingdom.….their subjects will be on earth (Rev 21:2-4)…so what is the purpose of the kingdom and his rule over redeemed mankind for 1000 years?
What will the kingdom do for the redeemed humans?
Tell me what the the end result will be for humanity? How can we get back what we lost if we have no idea what we lost in the first place?

They were in hell. The are brought back to appear before the throne for judgment in order to give an account of themselves and have it explained to them why they will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

What is “hell” here? Please tell me what words are translated as “hell” in the Bible, and what Jewish writer would ever translate a word that was not even in their vocabulary?….never even hinted about in their scripture.

What did Jews understand (Hebrew) “Sheol” to mean?
What about (Greek) “hades”…. is that hell?
How about (Greek) “Gehenna”….or “the lake of fire”? What would these words have meant to a scripture-educated Jew of the day?
Certainly nothing like what came out of Roman Catholicism.
What did Jesus teach, since he was also a Jew…..as all the Bible writers were Jewish….and he only used Jewish Scripture.

As some believe? Scripture repeatedly teaches that is where unbelievers go when they die. Jesus refers to the dead rich man as being in hell in Luke 16:19-31. Why would you not believe that?

No, not “hell”….. he was said to be in “hades”…so what did that word mean to a first century Jew as opposed to a Roman Catholic centuries later? It is the Greek equivalent of “Sheol” in the OT….so “hades” has the same meaning as “Sheol”. According to the Jewish Tanakh, Sheol is translated as “the grave”….nothing more sinister than that. No one is conscious in Sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

There is no “hell” in that parable either, because it is an illustration of something that the players in that parable experienced. The rich man pictured the Pharisees, and the beggar pictured the spiritually malnourished common people whom the Pharisees despised and treated like dirt. Their deaths were a change of circumstance….they traded places….what once belonged to the Jewish leaders (a position of favor with God which was suggested by the fact that they were in Abraham’s bosom), the beggar who represented the lowly sinners to whom Jesus preached, (as he said he was sent only to “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”.) As these “lost sheep” responded to Jesus as Messiah, they now attained a position of favor with God…..and the rich man who lost it was in torment over it.

Taken literally this parable makes no sense.

See above where I already answered this question. Also, the whole of human beings is their body, soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:23), so God intends for human beings to be made whole again in that sense and then spend eternity wherever He has determined for them.

Again you are giving scripture a meaning it never had….
Paul’s address in 1 Thess 5:23 was to the congregation as a whole, not to any individuals…..therefore their collective “body, soul and spirit” meant something very different to the idea of a triune composition in man.

God intends human beings to return to the sinless perfection that Adam lost for them. Humans had one home that they were given….planet Earth. Adam’s sin called for measures to be taken to ensure the safe return of the human race to God’s original purpose for them.
What were Adam and his wife told to do before they defected?

NASB? I thought Jehovah's Witnesses only used their own Bible translation (New World Translation). No? You believe the NASB is a trustworthy translation then? What others do you use? Just curious.

I personally use a variety of Bible translations especially when speaking to those who believe that our Bible is mistranslated…..I have studied many Bibles to check their integrity against the original languages and found the NWT to convey the truth, where others inject their own ideas into the translation to support a favored doctrine.

I am happy to use any translation as long as I have a reliable Concordance that shows the original use of the words and how they are translated in other Scripture. I don’t just read Scripture, I study it carefully. Original language word studies open up a whole new understanding of God’s word.

Anyway, I'll go ahead and read what you said about this passage now...

Are you reading everything that I'm saying? It seems not. I said that they will be judged by the standards that are given in Romans 1:18-2:16. Which means that no one has any excuse for not at least glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him while repenting of their sins, including the ones listed in Romans 1:18-32, instead of rebelling against Him. And, the reason no one has an excuse for that is because God makes Himself plain to everyone by what He has made (Romans 1:18-21). Why are you trying to give people an excuse for not having glorified God as God and being thankful to Him and for not repenting of their sins while they had the chance? Why do they need even more chances to do what they should have already done with the chances they already had?

You are leaving out the majority of those who have lived and died in past ages….none of whom knew the true God or his son. God allows for personal decisions and responds to them….just as he did in the garden.
He did that in Noah’s day as well…..as Noah preached righteousness to the people he gave them ample opportunity to respond to his warning and they chose to ignore him and to ridicule him…they paid dearly for that but at least they made their own decisions. That was how God judged them. It is how he will judge them again.

All who have lived in judgment periods like in the first century when Jesus preached to his fellow countrymen, these were not ignorant….the wicked Jewish leaders were without excuse to reject their Messiah, but took the majority of the Jewish nation down with them. Jesus sentenced them to “Gehenna”…..which meant eternal death, not eternal suffering in a fiery place of torture.

In these “last days”, we too are in a judgment period, and the “goats” will be judged when Christ makes his appearance…..the “sheep” will have shown by their conduct during this period that they are worthy of salvation in taking care of Christ’s “brothers”…..the “goats”, out of their neglect, will not.

You don't need to worry about injustice. We're talking about God here. He knows everyone's hearts intimately. He doesn't need to give people more chances for a thousand years in order to know what is in their hearts.

Like in the garden, he allows us the privilege of choice…..God acted only once in Creation…..since then he has reacted to what we have chosen to do…..he allows us that choice.

God does not sign our death warrant…we do….simply by the choices we make.

LOL. Please be serious if you want to be taken seriously. Do you or not? How can you not know that Revelation 20 is highly debatable when it has been hotly debated for many, many years? It's not exactly the most clear, straightforward text in scripture. It's contained within the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture, also.

Highly debatable by whom? It is not unclear at all for those who know the truth…..the Bible is only complicated for people who want it to say what it doesn’t….

 

[TheHC]

What is the point of them being "judged adversely during Christ’s thousand year reign" if they just end up being destroyed, anyway? That's total nonsense.

I was going to ask you the same question.

The 2nd resurrection the Bible speaks of (not the 1st), is about teaching these “unrighteous” ones, God’s ways w/o the Satanic influences around today (Satan will be abyssed). Truth will be available everywhere, and these unrighteous ones will be given time to make a choice: the best would be to learn of & accept Jesus’ sacrifice and God’s other standards for gaining life. The other would be to persist in their own selfish ways… that way, though, would lead to “everlasting contempt,” resulting in their destruction.

I’m sure many will learn meekness , & choose life. But God reads the heart; during the Final Test, they won’t be able to fool Him.