The Rapture and the Tribulation - Short

[rebuilder 454]

False

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End) no millennial kingdom on this earth following

nope
someone lied to you

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's Darby's 1830's false teaching of a pre-trib rapture that's got to go, it's found no place in scripture

Here i will save you some time.

QUOTE by t7;

"Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not rightDarby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right " Darby bad Dar Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not righty bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right"

Just copy and paste.
Post it on all your answers.
Huge time saver

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here i will save you some time.

QUOTE by t7;

"Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not rightDarby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right " Darby bad Dar Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not righty bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad Darby bad everybody listening to Darby! people going crazy listening to Darby! I can't take that Darby stuff ringing in my head! Darby was not right"

Just copy and paste.
Post it on all your answers.
Huge time saver

You tried to counter the claim about Darby by quoting ECFs as supposedly talking about their belief in a pre-trib rapture when nothing they said actually indicated as such. You completely misinterpreted their words just like you do scripture. The reality is that there is no credible evidence to show that anyone believed in a pre-trib rapture before Darby started teaching it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know.
Amil says there is no antichrist.
Amil is a partial Bible belief system.

Some Amills believe there is an individual Antichrist. This shows that you don't even understand Amill because you think the Amill doctrine somehow doesn't allow for an individual Antichrist. Most Amills do not believe that, but there's nothing about the doctrine in and of itself which says someone can't believe that. The person you replied to is an Amill who believes there will be an individual Antichrist, so you made yet another strawman argument.

 

[rebuilder 454]

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What do Catholics believe about the Rapture?​

We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words. (1 Thes 4:13-18)​

When a discussion turns to the end times, Christians can sometimes differ about what they think will transpire before the second coming of Christ. For example, there are some who take 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (in bold at left) to mean the righteous will be taken up to heaven in the days leading up to the period of great tribulation that will precede the second coming of Christ. In this view, only the sinful will be left behind to suffer during this period of trial. This taking up of the righteous to heaven before the great tribulation has been called the Rapture and has been popularized by books, TV programs and movies, most notably the “Left Behind” series.

The problem with this view​

From the Catholic perspective, the above interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is simply not supported by Scripture. In Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:26-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, the second coming of Christ is clearly placed after the tribulation. Further, St. Paul makes it clear that the resurrection of the dead happens only at Christ’s second coming, which will be announced by an archangel’s cry and a trumpet blast. There is not one place in the New Testament where a “secret” coming of Christ is mentioned whereby the righteous are spared the time of tribulation.

How Ironic that Catholics mirror postribulation rapture adherents and amils

 

[Davy]

....your deal has always been omission and change of God's word.

That of course is a LIE, because it is so EASY... to read the simplicity of the Bible Scripture to know Christ said He comes to gather His saints AFTER... the tribulation...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That same timing for Christ's coming AFTER the tribulation is written in Mark 13:24-27 also.

So really, those on man's false pre-trib rapture theory have NO EXCUSE. They are not listening to Lord Jesus Christ in His Word on this matter, but instead are listening to men and believing on them.

And pre-tribbers are actually the ones trying... to fabricate Bible Scripture that does not exist! just to try and support their false pre-trib rapture theory from corrupt men like John Nelson Darby who preached the idea first in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain.

 

[Davy]

How Ironic that Catholics mirror postribulation rapture adherents and amils

That is yet another... one of your Biblically illiterate statements.

The Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ for over 1,800 years. Only when those like Edward Irving and John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren started preaching the false pre-trib theory did that begin to change. In the Americas after the 1830s it was Cyrus Scofield with his personal study Bible that promoted it.

And that 1,800 years of earlier Church history INCLUDED later Protestant Churches too that held to the Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. So you cannot try... and use Catholicism as an excuse.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 of Jesus' Own Words are enough to prove man's pre-trib rapture theory to be false. There is nothing that can change that Biblical fact. Either one heeds what Jesus said there, or they do not and follow something else instead. Those have no excuse.

And even still to this day, the MAJORITY of Christian denominations still hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. Even the early Baptists in the American colonies used to hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ! The pre-trib rapture cannot be found having been taught in a Church prior to the 1830's, even as some pre-trib scholars have admitted.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That is yet another... one of your Biblically illiterate statements.

The Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ for over 1,800 years. Only when those like Edward Irving and John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren started preaching the false pre-trib theory did that begin to change. In the Americas after the 1830s it was Cyrus Scofield with his personal study Bible that promoted it.

And that 1,800 years of earlier Church history INCLUDED later Protestant Churches too that held to the Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. So you cannot try... and use Catholicism as an excuse.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 of Jesus' Own Words are enough to prove man's pre-trib rapture theory to be false. There is nothing that can change that Biblical fact. Either one heeds what Jesus said there, or they do not and follow something else instead. Those have no excuse.

And even still to this day, the MAJORITY of Christian denominations still hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. Even the early Baptists in the American colonies used to hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ! The pre-trib rapture cannot be found having been taught in a Church prior to the 1830's, even as some pre-trib scholars have admitted.

The Catholics erroneous eschatology mirrors yours.
They also rely on your dead men.
Doctrines of men as you claim for your foundation.

 

[The Light]

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place (the temple mount). Matthew 24:15. The abomination of desolation will be "set up". Daniel 12:11. The abomination of desolation will be a statue image made of the beast-king. Revelation 13:14.

ok.

The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:13) described in 2Thessalonians2:4.

Not a chance. The Day of the Lord is sudden destruction. It occurs at Armageddon at the 6th trumpet.

Transgression of desolation act triggers the beginning of the day of the Lord.

Again. No Douggg., Use common sense if you cannot understand the scriptures. The great tribulation is when Christians are hunted down and killed for not taking the mark.

The Day of the Lord is vengeance.

Abomination of desolation statue image set up triggers the beginning of the great tribulation.

Great. You got it. But that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Day of the Lord.

 

[The Light]

That is yet another... one of your Biblically illiterate statements.

The Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ for over 1,800 years

I guess that would have nothing to do with the Catholics controlling the Church for the majority of that time, the lack of a printing press or a lack of education amongst the masses.

. Only when those like Edward Irving and John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren started preaching the false pre-trib theory did that begin to change. In the Americas after the 1830s it was Cyrus Scofield with his personal study Bible that promoted it.

And yet despite there being no Israel for almost 1800 years, Darby was correct that the nation of Israel would be reborn. Whereas unbelieving men birthed replacement theology claiming that the Church had replaced Israel and came up with the AMIL nonsense.

And that 1,800 years of earlier Church history INCLUDED later Protestant Churches too that held to the Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. So you cannot try... and use Catholicism as an excuse.

Who do you think was controlling religion? And Augustine was one of the fathers of the nonsense of Amillennialism.

The Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 of Jesus' Own Words are enough to prove man's pre-trib rapture theory to be false. There is nothing that can change that Biblical fact. Either one heeds what Jesus said there, or they do not and follow something else instead. Those have no excuse.

And yet John 10 shows that there will be two folds and the Gentiles that believe will be the first fold.

And even still to this day, the MAJORITY of Christian denominations still hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus. Even the early Baptists in the American colonies used to hold to a Post-tribulational coming of Christ! The pre-trib rapture cannot be found having been taught in a Church prior to the 1830's, even as some pre-trib scholars have admitted.

TOTAL AND COMPLETE NONSENSE.

 

[Douggg]

ok.

Not a chance. The Day of the Lord is sudden destruction. It occurs at Armageddon at the 6th trumpet.

Again. No Douggg., Use common sense if you cannot understand the scriptures. The great tribulation is when Christians are hunted down and killed for not taking the mark.

The Day of the Lord is vengeance.


Great. You got it. But that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression act described in 2Thessalonians2:4. That act will end the world saying "peace and safety" at the time.

Armageddon does not begin the day of the Lord. Armageddon is at the end of the great tribulation at the time of Jesus's second coming, and no-one will be saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation.

The day of the Lord has a beginning and continues through phases, such as the great tribulation, to last for eternity.

 

[Truth7t7]

The reality is that there is no credible evidence to show that anyone believed in a pre-trib rapture before Darby started teaching it.

Correct, Darby in the 1830's started the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture, and the C.I. Scofield 1909 reference Bible with Darby's teachings in the margins sold "Millions" of copies and was distributed around the globe to the English speaking world, the is how the cancer in the big lie was spread, 1.) pre-trib rapture, 2.) dual covenant theology Israel/Church, 3.) Millennial Kingdom on earth, the three big lies of Darby and Scofield

 

[rebuilder 454]

I guess that would have nothing to do with the Catholics controlling the Church for the majority of that time, the lack of a printing press or a lack of education amongst the masses.

And yet despite there being no Israel for almost 1800 years, Darby was correct that the nation of Israel would be reborn. Whereas unbelieving men birthed replacement theology claiming that the Church had replaced Israel and came up with the AMIL nonsense.

Who do you think was controlling religion? And Augustine was one of the fathers of the nonsense of Amillennialism.



And yet John 10 shows that there will be two folds and the Gentiles that believe will be the first fold.

TOTAL AND COMPLETE NONSENSE.

Correct.
I get a laugh when they claim "early church".
They should say "I get my end times foundation from the early catholic church"

If you Google "end times catholic doctrine," their talking points MIRROR the postrib and amil people.

Those church fathers believed they WERE IN THE TRIB.

ISRAEL was totally scattered ...and ...so ...Bingo! .....Repl Theo is born.
The child was all messed up...lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Correct.
I get a laugh when they claim "early church".
They should say "I get my end times foundation from the early catholic church"

If you Google "end times catholic doctrine," their talking points MIRROR the postrib and amil people.

Those church fathers believed they WERE IN THE TRIB.

ISRAEL was totally scattered ...and ...so ...Bingo! .....Repl Theo is born.
The child was all messed up...lol

Oh, and in the catholic robotic talking points is the:
Darby Darby Darby Darby, bad bad bad.
Same as the robots here.

The Catholics burned heretics ( such as yourself and me) AND BURNED THEIR WRITINGS.

FF to today..." there are no pretrib writings"

Geee...I wonder why?????

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

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Home | Faith Syndicated

Inspiring witness stories, insightful advice for daily living, clear and accurate teaching about the Catholic faith, and news from around the world.

faithsyndicated.org

What do Catholics believe about the Rapture?​

We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.​

Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.​

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus, we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words. (1 Thes 4:13-18)​

When a discussion turns to the end times, Christians can sometimes differ about what they think will transpire before the second coming of Christ. For example, there are some who take 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (in bold at left) to mean the righteous will be taken up to heaven in the days leading up to the period of great tribulation that will precede the second coming of Christ. In this view, only the sinful will be left behind to suffer during this period of trial. This taking up of the righteous to heaven before the great tribulation has been called the Rapture and has been popularized by books, TV programs and movies, most notably the “Left Behind” series.

The problem with this view​

From the Catholic perspective, the above interpretation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is simply not supported by Scripture. In Mark 13:24-27, Matthew 24:26-31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, the second cominSo, g of Christ is clearly placed after the tribulation. Further, St. Paul makes it clear that the resurrection of the dead happens only at Christ’s second coming, which will be announced by an archangel’s cry and a trumpet blast. There is not one place in the New Testament where a “secret” coming of Christ is mentioned whereby the righteous are spared the time of tribulation.

How Ironic that Catholics mirror postribulation rapture adherents and amils

So, can we declare Premillennialism to be a false doctrine solely because of the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Christadelphians are Premills? Is this the way we are supposed to determine truth?

 

[Davy]

The Catholics erroneous eschatology mirrors yours.
They also rely on your dead men.
Doctrines of men as you claim for your foundation.

Like I said, the Christian Church, which INCLUDES the later Protestant Church, held to a Post-tribulational coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. Only in 1830s Great Britain was the pre-trib rapture doctrine first preached in a Christian Church. The evidence points to the Edward Irving Church in Britain where John Darby had attended, and also the influence of Margaret McDonald's visions on her deathbed.


But none of that above evidence really matters IF... one simply listens to what Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The Matthew 24:31 phrase in green is about Christ resurrecting the 'asleep' saints that had already died, and brings them with Him, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.

The Mark 13:27 phrase in green is about Christ gathering His saints that are still alive on earth on that day of His coming, what some call the rapture, but the KJV in 1 Thess.4:17 calls it being "caught up" to Jesus.

Thus what Lord Jesus showed in those Olivet discourse verses aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like I said, the Christian Church, which INCLUDES the later Protestant Church, held to a Post-tribulational coming of Jesus and gathering of His Church. Only in 1830s Great Britain was the pre-trib rapture doctrine first preached in a Christian Church. The evidence points to the Edward Irving Church in Britain where John Darby had attended, and also the influence of Margaret McDonald's visions on her deathbed.


But none of that above evidence really matters IF... one simply listens to what Lord Jesus Christ revealed in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The Matthew 24:31 phrase in green is about Christ resurrecting the 'asleep' saints that had already died, and brings them with Him, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.

The Mark 13:27 phrase in green is about Christ gathering His saints that are still alive on earth on that day of His coming, what some call the rapture, but the KJV in 1 Thess.4:17 calls it being "caught up" to Jesus.

Thus what Lord Jesus showed in those Olivet discourse verses aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

I agree except for one minor thing that doesn't really matter. I believe in Mark 13:27 that Jesus is referring both to the souls of the dead (asleep) in Christ and to His saints that are still alive on the day of His coming because He refers both to the elect being gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth" and from "the uttermost part of heaven". So, Mark just happened to include more of the detail of what Jesus said there than Matthew did.