Can a tare become saved?

[jeffweeder]

And you are an Amil that is on record agreeing that the tares can't mean the lost in general.

When did I post that?

This is what the Lord posted,

Matt 13
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him saying, “Explain [clearly] to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and [as for] the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger]. 43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

 

[Davidpt]

When did I post that?

This is what the Lord posted,

Matt 13
36 Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him saying, “Explain [clearly] to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and [as for] the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger]. 43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

Read Post #539 again. You posted that according to my browser. What you were responding to at the time is what you have quoted by @grafted branch having asked. Meaning this---So I’m asking a simple question, can a tare become saved? That's what my browser indicates you were replying to in particular.

You then answered that question with this---No.
Tares are a result of satan's seed, not the saving words of the Lord.

You can't say 'no' if you really mean 'yes'. And you clearly said 'no' not 'yes', to this question being asked that you quoted in particular---So I’m asking a simple question, can a tare become saved?

Maybe it's my browser and that you quoted more than my browser indicates you quoted pertaining to @grafted branch post you were addressing? My browser shows that you only quoted this part--So I’m asking a simple question, can a tare become saved?

And that you then answered that with this part---No.
Tares are a result of satan's seed, not the saving words of the Lord.

Matt 13
27 The servants of the owner came to him and said, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then how does it have weeds in it?’

 

[jeffweeder]

You can't say 'no' if you really mean 'yes'. And you clearly said 'no' not 'yes', to this question being asked that you quoted in particular---So I’m asking a simple question, can a tare become saved?

What makes you think that I am saying yes?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The tares get separated during Christ's return at the end of this age and is meaning the sheep and goats judgment. And that the sheep and goats judgment and the great white throne judgment are not the same judgment, in my view. For one, nowhere in Revelation 20:12-14 does it give the impression the saved are lined up on the right, the lost on the left, and that all of the saved and all of the lost are answering Jesus in the same manner.

Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Examples that prove who the sheep represent and who the tares represent, they all answer Jesus in the same manner. Which then contradicts the following if the following is also meaning the sheep and goats judgment.

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works(Revelation 20:12)

and they were judged every man according to their works(Revelation 20:13)

Are some going to argue that not one single person that gets cast into the LOF never helped feed and clothe the poor, for instance? Keeping in mind that the ones who did that per the sheep and goats judgment were the sheep not the goats. And that it is not reasonable that some who cast into the LOF, that not one single one of them ever helped feed and clothe the poor in their lifetime.

But if they did, and surely some did, that would make them the sheep in that case. Therefore, these 2 judgments can't be one and the same and that the sheep and goats is only pertaining to those in the body of Christ, His profitable and unprofitable servants.

Are you aware that literally everyone will appear before the judgment seat of Christ to confess that Jesus is Lord and not just those in the body of Christ?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, the idea that the goats only represent unprofitable servants because they refer to Him as "Lord" the same as the sheep do is not a valid argument because literally all unbelievers, and not just unprofitable servants of Christ, will be confessing that He is Lord and will call Him Lord at the judgment.

As for how to identify the sheep, you seemed to indicate that anyone who helped feed and clothe the poor "would make them the sheep in that case". Remember, the sheep inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God. Does scripture say that we are saved and inherit eternal life by our works of helping the poor? There would be a lot of Christ rejecters and those who oppose God or don't believe in God inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God if that was the case.

No, scripture says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, you can't say that everyone who has helped the poor is automatically among the sheep on that basis alone.

Notice that Jesus said that anything that is done for the least of these His brethren is done for Him. So, that means He is differentiating between those who love others and help the needy out of their love for Him and desire to serve Him and those who either don't help the needy at all or who do so out of the wrong motivations (trying to make themselves look righteous or trying to earn salvation) instead of out of a humble desire to serve and obey Him.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by our own works of righteousness (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), but once we're saved God has good works prepared for us to do (Ephesians 2:10) which relate to loving others and helping the needy. So, what Matthew 25:31-46 is about is differentiating between those who are saved and belong to Christ and did the good works that God prepared for them and that reflect their faith and those who are not saved and therefore did not do the good works that God only prepares for those who are saved.

 

[Davidpt]

What makes you think that I am saying yes?

One way to find out if you really meant yes even though you said no, is if you insist the tares are meaning all of the lost rather than someone more specific, such as the fake Christians in the body of Christ. IOW, the tares support that NOSAS is Biblical. The tares have zero to do with unrepentant atheists, unrepentant witches, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, so on and so on. But have to do with the theme found in Matthew 7, for one.

For example.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I can't imagine any interpreter, regardless what their over all position in general might be, instisting atheists, witches, satantists, unbelieving Jews, etc, are also meant here. As if it makes sense that any of these Christ rejectors would be saying to Him on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

In Matthew 13 the tares are trying to resemble the wheat in the early stages but are found out to be bad seed planted by the enemy when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Anyone interpreting Scripture with Scripture should now be thinking the following in Matthew 7.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


But instead of that let's just insist that the tares are meaning all the lost rather than a particular lost, such as Matthew 7 shows.

It's obvious why Amils need the tares to mean all of the lost. That way Premil can't be possible.

 

[jeffweeder]

At the harvest, the lord will separate the wheat from the tares. He knows those who are his. making the rest the tares.
All wheat, not just a particular part and
all the tares, not just a particular part are harvested.
Resulting in.

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].
43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

That is the final judgment and the NHNE.

Just except that I said No

 

[Davidpt]

At the harvest, the lord will separate the wheat from the tares. He knows those who are his. making the rest the tares.
All wheat, not just a particular part and
all the tares, not just a particular part are harvested.
Resulting in.

Matt 13
40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].
43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

That is the final judgment and the NHNE.

Just except that I said No

You clearly said no except you actually meant yes, yes tares can be saved. How do I know you meant yes? Simple. You have the tares meaning all the lost in general and that you wouldn't dare propose that none of the lost can be saved, since that would contradict that you were lost before you were saved. This contradiction and other contradictions go away entirely when one doesn't have the tares meaning all of the lost in general.

Viewing it in this manner means that the lost already exist before the good seed is sown, and already exist before men slept, then the enemy planting bad seed among good seed. Not to mention, atheists, for example, do not resemble wheat(Christians) at any stage. But fake Christians would. And BTW, there can't be fake Christians unless there are first legit Christians in order to imitate in the early stages.

But there are already atheists, for example, before there are even any fake Christians. IOW, I'm assuming atheism precedes the NT church era. As to unbelieving Jews, for example, there was no such thing until Christ came first. Unbelieving Jews don't reject that a promised Messiah will appear, they just reject that Christ is that promised Messiah, therefore, making them unbelieving Jews. They are not cut off from the good olive tree before Christ appears on the scene in the first century. They are cut off after He appears on the scene in the first century for their disbelief that Christ is the Messiah promised. Yet, the parable is not involving atheists nor unbelieving Jews, it is you and others like you that have it also involving these, and not that the parable itself is involving all of these.

 

[jeffweeder]

You clearly said no except you actually meant yes, yes tares can be saved. How do I know you meant yes? Simple. You have the tares meaning all the lost in general and that you wouldn't dare propose that none of the lost can be saved, since that would contradict that you were lost before you were saved. This contradiction and other contradictions go away entirely when one doesn't have the tares meaning all of the lost in general. Viewing it in this manner means that the lost already exist before the good seed is sown, and already exist before men slept, then the enemy planting bad seed among good seed. Not to mention, atheists, for example, do not resemble wheat(Christians) at any stage. But fake Christians would.

The parable is about the Lord coming and sowing seed in his field. The field is the world, and the good seed (Gospel) was sown in the first century.
The Lord comes at the end of the age to harvest his field/world in final judgment to weed out the tares.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

The end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One way to find out if you really meant yes even though you said no, is if you insist the tares are meaning all of the lost rather than someone more specific, such as the fake Christians in the body of Christ. IOW, the tares support that NOSAS is Biblical. The tares have zero to do with unrepentant atheists, unrepentant witches, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, so on and so on. But have to do with the theme found in Matthew 7, for one.

For example.

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I can't imagine any interpreter, regardless what their over all position in general might be, instisting atheists, witches, satantists, unbelieving Jews, etc, are also meant here. As if it makes sense that any of these Christ rejectors would be saying to Him on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

In Matthew 13 the tares are trying to resemble the wheat in the early stages but are found out to be bad seed planted by the enemy when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Anyone interpreting Scripture with Scripture should now be thinking the following in Matthew 7.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


But instead of that let's just insist that the tares are meaning all the lost rather than a particular lost, such as Matthew 7 shows.

It's obvious why Amils need the tares to mean all of the lost. That way Premil can't be possible.

The tares DO refer to all of the lost. Tell me what lost person is not a child of the devil?

Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

So, the tares are described as the children of the devil. Who are the children of the devil, according to scripture?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

This describes children of the devil as all those who are sinners and are not born of God (children of God). Why would you want to define the children of the devil in the parable differently than John did in 1 John 3:8-10?

Why do you not compare the parable of the wheat and tares to the following verse instead of Matthew 7:15-20?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Jesus looked at all people as being in two groups. Those who were with Him and those who were against Him. The wheat are children of His kingdom and they are with Him. The tares are the children of the devil and they are against Him. There is no third group. All people either are children of the kingdom (wheat) or children of the devil (tares).

Now, of course, those who are children of God and of the kingdom were all formerly children of the devil since scripture defines the children of the devil as being all lost sinners. But, the parable is not being told from that real-time perspective. It's told from God's eternal perspective where He knows which people end up as being children of the kingdom and which end up as being children of the devil. The parable is about the eternal destinies of the children of the kingdom and the children of the devil at the end of the age. At the end of the age the children of the devil (the tares) end up being cast into the fire while the children of the kingdom (the wheat) will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:40-43).