PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[marks]

Both dimensions are going to be revealed right here on earth, together in the same time and space.

I wouldn't say, "Here on earth", but I also think there will be an undivided realm. The veil torn.

If you are here when that false-Messiah appears in Jerusalem, maybe you will be spiritually strong enough to realize that will be a fake-Jesus, working great signs and wonders. But what about many of your brethren that will be told by their preachers and church organization that is Lord Jesus when it won't be? What will you do then when they see you rejecting him?

All I can tell you is, regardless of whatever someone thinks concerning the rapture, that doesn't mean everything else goes out the window.
But the thing is . . . when we demand all words in all verses be accounted for, I find that leaves us with pre-trib. So my concern for those who think differently from me is that I think they do not account for all words in all passages, and this kind of Bible reading can be improved for an overall better experience and outcome.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. The Church today will be raptured before the tribulation. This is the first fold. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel. The twelve tribes across the earth will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They will be raptured at the 6th seal. This is the second fold. Both folds are joined into one-fold, the body of Christ.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This is ridiculous. The other sheep are Gentiles. The Jewish sheep fold and the Gentile sheep fold were joined together into one fold by Jesus. It's no different than when Paul talked about Jew and Gentile believers being joined together as "one new man" and "one body" by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).

No. What I see is that you do not understand the Word of God. Study to show thyself approved.

You are definitely not doing that by not even having the discernment to understand that His other sheep He referred to are Gentile believers.

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly. The Church today will be raptured before the tribulation. This is the first fold. Then blindness will be removed from part of Israel. The twelve tribes across the earth will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. They will be raptured at the 6th seal. This is the second fold. Both folds are joined into one-fold, the body of Christ.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

No. What I see is that you do not understand the Word of God. Study to show thyself approved.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

JESUS is doing this Now = Today, if you hear His Voice, harden not your hearts

According to the Gospel/JESUS, when does HE gather Jew & Gentile in Him = post that verse(s)

@rebuilder 454 @marks

 

[WPM]

Of course it is mentioned, you just seemingly do not have the ability to dig it out or your position creates an entrenchment which your false pride will not let you escape from.

Lets see, in Rev. 1 Jesus in all his Glory was "The things which you HAVE SEEN" on earth as a lamb and in his eternal Glory as God the Redeemer.

In Rev. 2 you of the Divinely Complete Church Age (7 = Divine Completion) and John was told these are "The things which ARE".

Then IMMEDIATLY AQFTER the 7 Churches (Church Age Period) we see John being Raptured in real time, how do we know he saw his on future Rapture in a vision? Because God/Jesus/the Angels immediately started showing him the 70th week events back on earth and the Raptured Church in Heave beginning in Rev. 4:4, AFTER showing John his own Rapture John is told to COME UP HERE, I will show you the things which will be "HEREFATER". In that same verse we are told Jesus' voice SOUNDS AS A TRUMP. This is John telling those who will hear it, that this is the LAST TRUMP, ala Jesus calling us home to Marry the Lamb, as Rev. 10 clearly shows, we marry the Lamb then return to earth for the Marriage Supper (Armageddon) where we celebrate (our victory of our foes).

Do you even understand that all 7 Feasts must be fulfilled by Jesus and the LAST TRUMP shows us that it MUST COME before Israel ARONES? and before the 1000 year reign? For all you guys who think God gives specific verses on things, NO, God gives us info we have to dig out on purpose, why was Israel not awaiting the Messiahs birth? If they had understood Daniel 9 and that Bethlehem was his place of birth, they would have just killed him, as King Herod tried to do right? They had vague info for a reason. But the Wise Men knew, the old man who saw baby Jesus knew. Now, you want to know deep secrets of God? Try digging deep and not expecting to be hit over the head with answers. Jesus also had to come out of Egypt. God wants us to seek His face and to dig out His truths.

So, I am sure you would agree Jesus fulfilled all the Spring Feasts right? 1.) Passover (he was killed CHECK) 2.) Jesus fulfilled the Unleavened Bread Feast (He knew NO SIN) 3.) Jesus fulfilled the First-fruits feast (Jesus was the First-fruits of the grave, he overcame death)

So, what is next after that? The lone Feast on the Calendar ALL UNTO ITSELF (Think Church Age Period)

4.) The Feast of Weeks/Summer Harvest ( Jesus is NOW FULFILLING this Feast as our High Priest in Heaven, he is the head and we are the body, we are all HARVESTING SOULS for God as we speak. What ALWAYS ENDED the Jewish Summer Harvest? The Feast of Trumps (Ding, ding ding... think THE LAST TRUMP)

5.) Feast of Trumps (Jesus will fulfill this when he Harvests the Church from "upon a cloud as Rev. 14:14 clearly shows us he will do" and as Rev. 4:1 shows him doing via Paul's afore mentioned LAST TRUMP. This Last Trump also explains wat Jesus meant by "NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY NOR HOUR" These Feasts were APPOINTED TIMES via Moon cycles, a New Moon always started the Feasts, so Israel knew when the Fall Feasts were near but they could not pick out a certain date (which is why Easter/Passover is never on the same date every year) or day, this Moon Phase could come lets say just before Sundown on a Monday, just after Sundown (Tuesday) or after sundown on Tuesday which would be Wen., so in like a 25 hour period the New Moon could show up on 3 different days, thus NO MAN knew the exact day nor hour but God the Father. This is what Jesus is telling us when he says N0 MAN will now the day nor hour, that he will return in the end times for his bride, when the HARVST SEASON (think Church Age) is over, and just before the Feast of Atonement sees Israel repent. The LAST TRUMP is Jesus ENDING the Church Age.

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

6.) The Feast of Atonement is the 2nd Fall Feast Jesus fulfills in the Future, Jesus' blood ATONES for Israel sin but only when they accept him as a Nation (the 1/3 in Zech. 13"8-9 repent, in the VERY NEXT vs. we see the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 so Israel repents JUST BEFORE the DOTL and that matches Malachi 4:5-6 which says Elijah will be sent back to turn Israel back unto God JUST BEFORE the DOTL arrives.

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to TABERNACLE means to DWELL with God) think Jesus the Redeemer who rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years. It ALL FITS LIKE GLOVE, but you guys want God to slap you in the head with a big bold headline, (LOL) that is not God's style. You not knowing this is on you.

Rev. 4:4 is THE CHURCH look at the GIFTS (God is shouting LO They sit at God's THRONE, they have on WHITE ROBES and the have on Gold Crowns. Now look at Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21 all of those things were PROMISED to those who OVERCAME (Church). In Rev. 5:9-10 we see those people are REDEEMED BY GOD so w know its the Church. Then in Rev. 7:9-16 we see the Church in Heaven who came out of the Church Age Tribulation.

All noise. There's no such thing as seven Church ages. That is a dispensationalist invention. So, you just built your whole foundation on sand.

 

[WPM]

This is ridiculous. The other sheep are Gentiles. The Jewish sheep fold and the Gentile sheep fold were joined together into one fold by Jesus. It's no different than when Paul talked about Jew and Gentile believers being joined together as "one new man" and "one body" by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).


You are definitely not doing that by not even having the discernment to understand that His other sheep He referred to are Gentile believers.

If you look, their evidence is everything they have been taught. It is all extra-biblical. It is all imaginations in their head.

 

[WPM]

Some see, some don't. Some hear, some don't. There are 5 wise and 5 foolish.

The Lord is at the doors. The fact that you can't see this does not change that He is.

No. We do not see and accept man-made nonsense that you manifestly cannot be backed up with clear Scripture.

 

[The Light]

I'll need a little time to assimilate what you've written here.

I hope you take the time to study this as it is correct.............not what is taught............but it is correct.

Everything falls into place perfectly when you realize that there are two raptures. All that..........The man of sin must revealed before the rapture, so there is no pretrib rapture quickly goes up in smoke. The man of sin is revealed after the pretrib rapture and before the rapture of the 12 tribes.

One thing I can mention initially is that I don't see the darkened sun and moon to be the same sign as the darkened sun and blood moon. Either the moon gives light (even red) or it doesn't, so I see these as separate events. And in this way I think I see greater harmony.

Ok. Let's get you past this initial problem.

Ever seen a lunar eclipse? The moon is darked and then turns to blood. So the moon is both darked and turned to blood in the same event known as a lunar eclipse. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and it is a harvest.

The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest.

If you have other problems that you see, let me know.

 

[marks]

Here I go again; Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the time of His future coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Joel 2:30-3:1 KJV
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

"Bring again the captivity" is idiom for bringing the captive back home.

Matthew 25:31-32 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Joel 3:2 KJV
2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

"plead" here is to give legal address being their Judge.

Jesus comes in power and glory, and sends His angels to gather "the chosen". Later, the nations will be gathered and judged.

Jesus prophesied fully in keeping with the prophets before Him, the Spirit of Christ in them speaking.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a good example of paying attention to the details.

Revelation 14:1-5 KJV
1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

They stand with the Lamb on Mt Sion, an Earth location, a voice comes from heaven, and they are singing before the throne, having been redeemed from the earth.

I completely disagree. There is a serious lack of attention to detail going on here. Being redeemed FROM the earth indicates a different location than earth.

What time period do you think this represents?

They are said to be before the throne. The throne is in heaven, not on earth. Also, are you somehow not aware that there is a heavenly Mount Zion?

Hebrews 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest,.......22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

These are they with God's Name on their foreheads.

Revelation 7:3-4 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

This confirms Israel remains a nation before God exactly as was prophesied.

The Israel of God consists only of believers, not unbelievers, so that passage has nothing to do with a nation that includes unbelievers being "a nation before God".

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

And there is another question to be answered,

These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Firstfruits of what?

Revelation 7:3-4 KJV
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

"The servants of God", this is an inclusive statement. If you are a "servant of God" at this time, you will be included in this number. And yet there are 144,000, and they are all Jews, specifically, 12,000 from each of 12 tribes. There are no Gentile Christians who are servants of God on the earth at the time this happens. Where did they go??

If that's supposed to be interpreted literally, as in a literal 144,000 and literally only Jews, then tell me why the tribe of Dan is not listed in Revelation 7:5-8, but the tribe of Manasseh is? In the Old Testament, the 12 tribes were the tribes of the sons of Jacob, one of whom was Dan. Manasseh was the son of Joseph. If it was meant to refer to the literal 12 tribes of Israel as described elsewhere in scripture, then why the change there?

Also, where do you get the idea from that "there are no Gentile Christians who are servants of God on the earth at the time this happens"?

 

[WPM]

Personally I think this hinges on whether Israel is still God's chosen nation. Thinking otherwise forces people to abandon valid interpretation, because if Israel hasn't remained as God's chosen nation, with promises of blessing that will be fulfilled, then they have to account for quite a number of passages that read otherwise.

Much love!

How can people who hate Christ be called God's chosen people? That is ridiculous. They're of their father the devil.

 

[David in NJ]

All noise. There's no such thing as seven Church ages. That is a dispensationalist invention. So, you just built your whole foundation on sand.

i would not say that

the number 7 Speaks of CHRIST and all that pertains to HIM

Rev 2:1 - “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.

Rev 3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Hebrews 4:1-7
1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

 

[David in NJ]

If you look, their evidence is everything they have been taught. It is all extra-biblical. It is all imaginations in their head.

pre-trib = man-made doctrine that centers on the pulpit of men & the paper crown kingdom of men

 

[The Light]

No. We do not see

I understand. You do not see. Those with eyes to see, see and those with ears to hear, hear. You do not see.

and accept man-made nonsense that you manifestly cannot be backed up with clear Scripture.

I understand. You accept man-made nonsense that cannot be backed up by scripture. Scripture is just not clear to you. Study the Feasts of God and study the Old Testament. It's hard to understand the New Testament if you do not understand the Old Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus comes in power and glory, and sends His angels to gather "the chosen".

Those who belong to Jesus are "the chosen".

Romans 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Later, the nations will be gathered and judged.

What do you mean "Later"? Both Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 are said to occur when Jesus comes with His angels.

All people are divided into two groups for the judgment which Jesus called sheep and goats.

Who are the sheep? The same as "the chosen". Those who belong to Christ (John 10).

 

[marks]

Ever seen a lunar eclipse?

Yes, in fact, quite a number of them over the years. I remember so well my first, I was maybe 4 or 5 years old, and my mother woke us all up at midnight. She had set up a row of lawn chairs for us to watch it. I remember the moon looked like a red tennis ball about 10 feet above my head. Amazing!

Now, whether we say, the blood moon immediately preceeds or immediately follows a dark moon, I still maintain, they are not the same sign. So we need other elements of God's prophecies to determine if such is so. But not that they are the same sign, that's not a foundation, because they are not.

Naturally there is much more to it than this, but I wanted to address what you saw as my initial problem. Personally I think blending them into the same event is not correct.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

I understand. You do not see. Those with eyes to see, see and those with ears to hear, hear. You do not see.

I understand. You accept man-made nonsense that cannot be backed up by scripture. Scripture is just not clear to you. Study the Feasts of God and study the Old Testament. It's hard to understand the New Testament if you do not understand the Old Testament.

Well i REJOICE in TRUTH = Thy Word is TRUTH" - John 17:17

i asked you to post the Scripture from the Gospel where JESUS pinpoints the final gathering of Jew and Gentile in HIM

Could you please find and post that from the Gospel

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not what you said in your Post #25. You said the bodies of the alseep saints are asleep in the ground.

You Said:​

"In 1Thessalonians4:14-18, at God the Father's direction (verse 14), Jesus brings from heaven the souls of Christians that have died (their bodies asleep in the grave) for the resurrection of those bodies. The resurrected bodies out from the earth are then reunited with the souls that Jesus brings with Him from heaven."​

That above in red is the idea of men's doctrine called Soul Sleep. The idea that their flesh bodies in the casket is re-united to their spirit is part of the Soul Sleep Theory from men.

He specifically said their BODIES are asleep in the grave, not their souls. You have the worst reading comprehension skills I've ever seen. He said Jesus brings their souls with Him from heaven, so he did not say their souls are asleep. They are alive and will be reunited with their resurrected, changed bodies when Jesus returns.

The usage by Apostle Paul of the word "asleep" in the KJV for the saints who have died, is a metaphor. Paul did not mean the dead saints are literally asleep.

Who said otherwise? No one. He refers to them as being asleep because he knows they will eventually be resurrected rather than remaining physically/bodily dead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've found that to be the case also. Those who believe Israel is replaced by the Church (amil, post-trib, etc.) will typically demand all teaching come from the NT. Sometimes they've even demanded I only base my doctrines on certain books, or in one case recently, to a portion of a single chapter.

Given that the same God inspired both, I think we should pay attention to all God has said.

Much love!

Amils have no problem with looking at all of scripture. The problem is that Premil contradicts a lot of New Testament scripture. You can't use Old Testament scripture to cover up how your doctrine contradicts a lot of New Testament scriptures. Your solution for fixing those contradictions is to change clear, straightforward scriptures in the New Testament to agree with your understanding of more obscure Old Testament scriptures. If you can't understand that, for the most part, New Testament scripture sheds light on Old Testament prophecies, then I don't know what to tell you because it is so obviously true.

 

[The Light]

Yes, in fact, quite a number of them over the years. I remember so well my first, I was maybe 4 or 5 years old, and my mother woke us all up at midnight. She had set up a row of lawn chairs for us to watch it. I remember the moon looked like a red tennis ball about 10 feet above my head. Amazing!

Now, whether we say, the blood moon immediately preceeds or immediately follows a dark moon, I still maintain, they are not the same sign. So we need other elements of God's prophecies to determine if such is so. But not that they are the same sign, that's not a foundation, because they are not.

Naturally there is much more to it than this, but I wanted to address what you saw as my initial problem. Personally I think blending them into the same event is not correct.

Here is a lunar eclipse. Note that the moon is both darkened and turns to blood. They happen in the same event.

Did this help?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is a lunar eclipse. Note that the moon is both darkened and turns to blood. They happen in the same event.

Did this help?

The wrath of the Lamb follows what is described in both Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29, so I don't know how anyone can deny that they are speaking of the same event.