PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS

[marks]

Here is a lunar eclipse. Note that the moon is both darkened and turns to blood. They happen in the same event.

I understand what you are saying. However, I believe these are separate events:

Joel 2:30-31 KJV
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12-13 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

. . . and . . .

Zechariah 14:12 LITV
12) And this shall be the plague with which Jehovah will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rest in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths.

Isaiah 13:9-10 KJV
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 2:1-10 KJV
1) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
( . . . )
10) The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I see the blood moon before the day of the LORD, and the darkened moon when Jesus returns, regathers Israel, and judges the nations. I think the reason different descriptions are used is to alert us to them being different signs.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

The wrath of the Lamb follows what is described in both Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29, so I don't know how anyone can deny that they are speaking of the same event.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 has been taught as Jesus returning with armies of heaven at Armageddon.

The facts say the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and is a harvest.

 

[The Light]

I understand what you are saying. However, I believe these are separate events:

Joel 2:30-31 KJV
30) And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Revelation 6:12-13 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

. . . and . . .

Zechariah 14:12 LITV
12) And this shall be the plague with which Jehovah will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rest in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths.

Isaiah 13:9-10 KJV
9) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10) For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Joel 2:1-10 KJV
1) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
( . . . )
10) The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Matthew 24:29 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I see the blood moon before the day of the LORD, and the darkened moon when Jesus returns, regathers Israel, and judges the nations. I think the reason different descriptions are used is to alert us to them being different signs.

Much love!

Thanks for your detailed response.

Here is why I think what I am saying is correct. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Does that sound like a harvest or does that sound like Armageddon?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the great tribulation. Those that come out of great tribulation are of the 12 tribes..........the seed of the woman.

This is the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal. Believers are raptured and taken to heaven. Unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The same thing happens at the 6th seal as unbelievers realize that the day of wrath has come. Wrath is the 7th seal.

You know the first fruits 144,000 are redeemed from the earth. First fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming. The Lord comes at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

Well i REJOICE in TRUTH = Thy Word is TRUTH" - John 17:17

i asked you to post the Scripture from the Gospel where JESUS pinpoints the final gathering of Jew and Gentile in HIM

Could you please find and post that from the Gospel

Oh.......trick question.

Jesus ministry was to the Jews. Go not the way of the Gentiles he told His disciples. So you are asking me to look for a needle that is not in the haystack.

 

[St. SteVen]

FACT Check: Everyone who is in CHRIST are Members of His Body, His Church, His Bride

For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
For in fact the body is not one member but many. - 1 Cor 12:13

Define "sin, righteousness and judgment". Thanks.

[ cc: @BarneyFife

 

[David in NJ]

Define "sin, righteousness and judgment". Thanks.

[ cc: @BarneyFife

JESUS already did that for us = SEE John 3:16-21

also SEE Galatians chapter 5

 

[WPM]

i would not say that

the number 7 Speaks of CHRIST and all that pertains to HIM

Rev 2:1 - “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands.

Rev 3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Hebrews 4:1-7
1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, [a]not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’ ”
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

Not one of these teach seven church ages

 

[David in NJ]

Oh.......trick question.

Jesus ministry was to the Jews. Go not the way of the Gentiles he told His disciples. So you are asking me to look for a needle that is not in the haystack.

The Gospel is to Jew & Gentile

the Apostle John walked with JESUS and knew this AND he wrote about it in his gospel beginning in chapter 1.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John also recorded JESUS Gospel to all the world = whoever = John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

JESUS prophesied of Jew & Gentile TOGETHER in One Flock under One Shepherd= John 10:11-16
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[WPM]

I understand. You do not see. Those with eyes to see, see and those with ears to hear, hear. You do not see.

I understand. You accept man-made nonsense that cannot be backed up by scripture. Scripture is just not clear to you. Study the Feasts of God and study the Old Testament. It's hard to understand the New Testament if you do not understand the Old Testament.

The blindness is on your behalf. You're yet to show one single proof text in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible. That is because you will never find it. It is not there.

 

[David in NJ]

Not one of these teach seven church ages

JESUS concludes the 7 churches represent all churches throughout time up to His Coming.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Define "sin, righteousness and judgment". Thanks.

JESUS already did that for us = SEE John 3:16-21

That's not definitions. You just threw a meaningless reference at me.

[

 

[David in NJ]

St. SteVen said:
Define "sin, righteousness and judgment". Thanks.

That's not definitions. You just threw a meaningless reference at me.

[

Second time you declare the Scriptures as meaningless

You are promoting division

Here is The PROBLEM

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

 

[marks]

Here is why I think what I am saying is correct. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Does that sound like a harvest or does that sound like Armageddon?

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

To me, this sounds like Armageddon.

22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

And this sounds like, "gather My chosen", following Armageddon.

Revelation 19:11-19 KJV
11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

It is the Church that is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth that are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the great tribulation. Those that come out of great tribulation are of the 12 tribes..........the seed of the woman.

Revelation 19:7 KJV
7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

What does it refer to that "his wife has made herself ready"?

Revelation 19:9 KJV
9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Who are the guests of the marriage supper? Personally I think it happens on earth.

"Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD", this is the call of the Lamb's wife now ready to rewed. You will not see me again until . . . now they say this, mean it, and heavens open, and Jesus comes to collect His chosen nation, the church having already been raptured, and now are returning with Him.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Ezekiel 39:17-29 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21) And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

To me, this sounds like Armageddon.

22) So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23) And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24) According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

And this sounds like, "gather My chosen", following Armageddon.

Revelation 19:11-19 KJV
11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18) That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19) And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.


Revelation 19:7 KJV
7) Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

What does it refer to that "his wife has made herself ready"?

Revelation 19:9 KJV
9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Who are the guests of the marriage supper? Personally I think it happens on earth.

"Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD", this is the call of the Lamb's wife now ready to rewed. You will not see me again until . . . now they say this, mean it, and heavens open, and Jesus comes.

Much love!

"Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the LORD", You will not see me again until . . . now they say this, mean it, and heavens open, and Jesus comes."

The unredeemed Jews DO NOT open heavens gates and usher the 2nd Coming of Christ.
JESUS said that the unredeemed Jewish people will proclaim Salvation when HE Comes.

Israel will first be judged by God so that they FINALLY cry out for YAHshua/Salvation/ SAVE us

Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence.
For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city. - Zechariah 14:1-2

 

[marks]

Matthew 17:10-11 LITV
10) And His disciples asked Him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?
11) And answering, Jesus said to them, Elijah indeed comes first and shall restore all things.

Malachi 4:5-6 LITV
5) Behold, I am sending you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of Jehovah.
6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the sons, and the heart of the sons to their fathers, that I not come and strike the earth with utter destruction.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

Second time you declare the Scriptures as meaningless

You are promoting division

No, on both counts.

[

 

[The Light]

The blindness is on your behalf. You're yet to show one single proof text in Revelation or anywhere else in the Bible. That is because you will never find it. It is not there.

To those who look for Jesus he will appear a second time.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What about those that are not looking for Him? Does He appear? Kinda doesn't sound like it. Sounds like a secret rapture to those looking for Him.

Then what happens. The lie that fools the world. The aliens have come and taken everyone away. It will be on TV. Alien ships flying around.
In 1937 the Hindenburg class airship was 804 feet. That almost three football fields long. Could you imagine what we could build today? Don't think they aren't out there somewhere. Additionally, they have holograms that will make it look like UFO's are flying up your street.
Are you going to believe what you see?

When the rapture occurs, the world will be in Chaos. Very little food, very little order. And then..........."Order Out of Chaos" The new world order is at your door. What are you going to believe? I just want you to remember this as the Lord is really, really close. Your wish will be granted so don't believe what your eyes see.

 

[marks]

When the rapture occurs, the world will be in Chaos. Very little food, very little order. And then..........."Order Out of Chaos" The new world order is at your door. What are you going to believe? I just want you to remember this as the Lord is really, really close. Your wish will be granted so don't believe what your eyes see.

Have you heard of what they call the "Earthquake Rapture"? This takes the idea that since there was/will be earthquakes associated with those who are resurrected to eternal life, and speculates that in the mass worldwide resurrection of those in Christ at the rapture, that there will be a worldwide earthquake.

Much love!

 

[WPM]

To those who look for Jesus he will appear a second time.

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

What about those that are not looking for Him? Does He appear? Kinda doesn't sound like it. Sounds like a secret rapture to those looking for Him.

Then what happens. The lie that fools the world. The aliens have come and taken everyone away. It will be on TV. Alien ships flying around.
In 1937 the Hindenburg class airship was 804 feet. That almost three football fields long. Could you imagine what we could build today? Don't think they aren't out there somewhere. Additionally, they have holograms that will make it look like UFO's are flying up your street.
Are you going to believe what you see?

When the rapture occurs, the world will be in Chaos. Very little food, very little order. And then..........."Order Out of Chaos" The new world order is at your door. What are you going to believe? I just want you to remember this as the Lord is really, really close. Your wish will be granted so don't believe what your eyes see.

Those that are not looking and are not ready are going to be destroyed. Hello! Look at the multiple Scripture above that you have avoided that show that.

 

[The Light]

Have you heard of what they call the "Earthquake Rapture"? This takes the idea that since there was/will be earthquakes associated with those who are resurrected to eternal life, and speculates that in the mass worldwide resurrection of those in Christ at the rapture, that there will be a worldwide earthquake.

Much love!

I have not heard of this.

However, I thought this exact same thing and have made a couple of comments about there being earthquakes and I think a thread last year. I tied it to the dead in Christ rising.

I changed my mind however due to the below verses. The first I believe to be the dead in Christ rising in the spring. And the second part I believe is the alive that remain.

I got off the earthquakes when I saw the voice of the turtle dove was in the land. In other words no earthquakes, no loud noises on the earth.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;
(THE ALIVE THAT REMAIN BELOW IN THE LATE SUMMER

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.