PRETRIB RAPTURE ANCIENT ROOTS
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Here we go again! More noise! Where are your proof-texts? Quote them in full and exegete them, if you can. How about actually showing us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a trib of years followed by a 3rd coming, instead of always voicing personal opinions?
The Light
Well-Known Member
LOL. You have thrown the white flag up long ago. You have dodged countless opportunities to support your own claims. You have failed to support any of these. You cannot even prove the Pretrib paradigm with one proof-text in Scripture. You cannot even show us the future Pretrib rapture of the Church in Revelation. Checkmate!
You invent a 7 years trib period after the coming of Christ and you cannot even show us this in Scripture. You have nothing. That is because the coming of the Lord is climactic. It is the end of the world.
Pretrib lurkers must be cringing!
Personally I'm thinking that the scroll is opened and this begins the 70th week. I think the seals are opened in the same time it takes to read the passage.
The conditions prophesied by Jesus in the Olivette Discourse are called birth pangs, analogous to the pre-labor conditions of birth. Contractions that start and stop, increasingly becoming worse. Then the seals are opened, and these conditions that were once intermittent become constant, the new reality for the earth.
For instance while Jesus prophesied wars and rumors of wars, and we see this, intermittent, increasingly worse. When the red horse goes out, peace is removed from the world. In that this rider is given a great sword, there is power, in that the great sword is in fact the short sword, this is hand to hand combat, personal. Violence enters all levels of society.
The birth pangs show a world becoming increasingly unstable, and antichrist, and against mankind, but the end is not yet. The seals, in particular the horsemen, turn governance, society, economy, and ecology to become fully hostile to mankind, until the Lord Jesus comes.
The fifth seal shows the souls of those killed before that are "under the altar", which I think indicates under the Law. That these are the souls of those killed in the OT times for "the word of God, and the testimony which they held". The cry for vengeance, and are told to wait until their fellowservants and their brothers will be killed as they were.
I believe these that will be killed in the time following are those who will die under the beast, who, unlike their predecessors, these now "have the testimony of Jesus".
The sixth seal includes the signs and the earthquake, and signals that the Day of the LORD is about to come.
The seventh seal is opened, and the scroll now is opened. Heaven is silent, as God prepares to judge the earth.
But before that 7th seal is opened, we are told two other occurrences. One is the sealing of "the servants of God", who are all Jewish males, 12,000 from each of 12 tribes. When we ask, so then where are all the other servants of God? We are shown an innumerable multitude in heaven, from all the nations of the earth having either come out of, or having come away from, great tribulation (check out John's various uses of ek and apo).
And only after these two things, the sealing of 144,000 of Israel, and the appearing in heaven of this multitude, do the judgments begin.
For myself, I consider the 70th week to begin after the scroll is opened, and that the church is raptured most likely as the souls under the alter are given white robes. I think this signals when Jesus completes the church, and is now going to bring salvation to the remnant of Israel.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Both groups are ethnic.
the Jewish people are one ethnic
the Church/His elect/His Body/His Bride are comprised of many ethnic groups from "every tribe, tongue and nation"
the Church includes ethnic Jews who have come to CHRIST = One Flock comprised of every tribe, tongue and nation
When Christ returns, HE returns to gather His Elect = His Church thru the Resurrection which includes OT saints
11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He put to death their hostility.
17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.
The Light
Well-Known Member
That was the checkered flag.
The only white flag I tossed is after twice answering your boat load of questions and receiving no response I no longer waste my time. If you have one question, I'll deal with it. No more with the boat load.
Don't you get tired of getting your rear handed to you and your only response is you were not answered. It's a crackup as to how many posters you give the exact same response to. It seems everyone dodges you.
BTW. I don't believe in a 7 year tribulation. It's times, time and half a time.
I do believe that the is a final week, however, which starts when a covenant with many is made.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
AGREE with the above = for everyone
throwing out a "boat load" of questions is diversionary
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
#1 - the Ark is CHRIST = we are either in CHRIST or not, and those not in Christ will not Enter into Glory
#2 - JESUS is the ARK = Matt 25:1-10 = whoever does not belong to HIM are not permitted to enter into Glory
#3 - JESUS is the MASTER of His House = we who belong to CHRIST are His House = HE shuts the Door at His 2nd Coming
#4 - the FLOOD was God's WRATH = Noah and family escaped God's WRATH + HE shut the Door once and no one else got in
#5 - There is no "coming back" once the MASTER of The House shuts the Door = Matthew 25:1-13 & Luke 13:22-30
#6 - Scripture only Speaks of His 1st Coming and then His 2nd Coming = no one gets in once HE shuts the Door
#7 - JESUS is The POST-TRIBBER who calls us to follow Him and HE Says you will face Tribulation even the Great Tribulation
OT Prophets, Gospel, Apostles and Revelation all AGREE
@marks @The Light
The Light
Well-Known Member
Contrary to popular belief, there are only 3.5 weeks left in the 70th week. There are 69 weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince. The Jesus is cut off after 3.5 years of the final week. That leave 3.5 years
Most think that the 144,000 are sealed to go through the wrath of God. That is not correct. Don't be fooled by this verse.
Revelation 9
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Those 144,000 get sealed earlier in the seals (not after the 6th seal) and are first fruits before the fifth seal. We can prove that by Revelation 14.
The 144,000 are first fruits of the second fold of the great multitude. They are part of the great multitude and are in heaven before the 5th seal.
Daniel 9:25-26 KJV
25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
It is after the 69th week that Messiah is cut off. It's after this we are introduced to the 70th week.
Much love!
We'd need to sort out the chronological order of the Revelation. That's a good sized undertaking, and I don't think anyone is looking for a new POV.
Much love!
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Throw out a thousand questions and claim your questions are being dodged.
After answering those thousand questions a couple of times with no response back, it's just a waste of time. As you say it's just a diversion because they have no answers.
But for some that's all they have to protect their fallen doctrine. They sure can't use scripture as it is written.
The Light
Well-Known Member
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks
From the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince is 69 weeks.
After 69 weeks the Messiah is cut off. Jesus is not cut off when He is revealed as the Lamb of God. He is cut off after that, 3 and a half years later when He is crucified.
There are only 3.5 years left of the 70th week.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
After the 69th week you enter into the 70th week = Christ was cut-off in the 70th week
Just follow along with how the passage reads.
It seems this is the primary difference between myself and others here. I keep it all in the sequence presented, others do not, thinking that it is presented out of order.
Much love!
The Light
Well-Known Member
You're right. No one is looking for a new point of view. He who seeks finds. I'll give you the order of Revelation. If you don't understand the order of Revelation, aren't we going to be in error?
If the order of Revelation is not understood, Revelation is not understood. And there are very, very few that understand it.
Revelation reads like Genesis 7. In Genesis 7 we get three views of Noah loading the animals and three views of the flood. There's just one flood and Noah only loads the animals one time, but with each view we get more information.
Revelation reads the same way. In Revelation we get two views of the seals and two views of the wrath of God.
I'll skip Revelation 1-5 which happen in order, Revelation 12 as it covers a long period of time, 17,18 have to do with Babylon , 20 and 21 are after the millennial kingdom is set up.
Here is the order of Revelation that needs understood.
Revelation 6 is the first six seals. Revelation 13 and 14 are another view of things that happen in the first six seals providing additional information.
Revelation 7 the sealing of the 12 tribes takes early in the seals (you need to understand Revelation 14 to understand this) Then there is the great multitude which occurs after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for a harvest. Revelation 15 is additional information of the timeframe of Revelation 7. It lets us know those that come out of great tribulation are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews
Revelation 8, 9,10,11 is the 7th seal wrath of God. We get a different view of the same timeframe in Revelation 16.
I don't know if you can follow this, but it is correct, and you will not understand Revelation if you do not understand this.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
After the 69th week Messiah will be cut-off
After the 69th week is the 70th week
Messiah was cut off in the 70th week just as Daniel says and this is what His Death did for Israel and all who would believe:
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Here's a quick framework. The two witnesses testify and prophesy for 42 months, and no one can kill them. The beast if given power for 42 months, ending when Jesus comes. The beast kills the two witness once it is allowed to do so, at the end of their 42 monthes.
Therefore, the 2 witnesses testify for 42 months (3.5 years) followed by the rule of the beast for 42 months (3.5 years), and then Jesus comes. This is a total of 7 years.
Much love!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Chapter 11 has the 7th Trumpet = which is in accordance with Matt chapter 24 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15
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