Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well GodGrace it looks like we only disagee on a couple things. That is perfectly fine.
God Bless.
How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?
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Well GodGrace it looks like we only disagee on a couple things. That is perfectly fine.
God Bless.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That is a good point....how do finite beings comprehend infinity?
Yes, we are talking titles here.....can titles be held by more than one person in Scripture?
Is “Savior” an exclusive title? No! There are a few mentioned in OT Scripture who were bearers of that title, as was Jesus. (Judges 9:3; 15) The word in Hebrew is “yāšaʿ”......the same word that was used in Isa 43:11.
The title “the Alpha and the Omega” however conveys the idea of the start and the finish or completion of a thing. The personage who is so designated would, therefore, be viewed as the beginner of certain things and the one who brings these things to a successful conclusion.
Based on what is revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures, the title “the Alpha and the Omega” would certainly fit Yahweh. But does the title apply exclusively to God?
Let’s unpack Revelation 1:7-8...
Apparently....but...In the Scriptures, only the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as the “Almighty.” Jesus is never addressed by those titles. “The Lord God” in Hebrew Scripture is Yahweh. And since Yahweh is “Almighty” meaning “Omnipotent”...he alone possesses infinite power.
Jesus Christ even refers to his Father as “my God.” (John 20:17; Rev 3:12) whilst he was still on earth and even after his ascension to heaven. How does God have a God in heaven?
According to Rev 1:1, the Revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God. Hence, we should expect the words of the Almighty God to be quoted in the account. The first reference to “the Alpha and the Omega” is obviously an example of this....but in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev 1:9) This provides additional confirmation that John understood God to be a separate personage to his Lord Jesus Christ.
Being the eternal God, Yahweh has at all times been the Almighty. (Psalm 90:2) So, in the indefinite past, he was always the “Almighty God” and will come in that capacity to execute his judgment....his son will carry out that judgment.
The Scriptures recognize that all power comes from this “Almighty” source....Jesus had no power of himself, but at his baptism received the Holy Spirit, which empowered him to perform supernatural fetes.
The Bible also recognizes that Jesus had no authority of his own, and no teachings of his own....he was “given” them by his Father. (Matt 28:18; John 17:16)...so this proves that Jesus was not God on earth, but that he shared the title “theos” (god) in heaven. (John 1:1)
In keeping with the meaning of that word, Christ could be “divine” without being “deity”.
John sees the holy city New Jerusalem bringing God’s rulership to the earth....to “men”....so how was God going to be “among” these “men”, since Moses was told that “no man may see God and yet live”.
How was God “with” his people Israel? Did he need to be physically present? No....he appointed human representatives like Moses to guide and direct his nation. Moses spoke of a prophet like himself who was to come...
Deut 18:18-19....God said to Moses....
I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.”
Peter confirmed that Jesus was that “prophet” (Acts 3:21-23)
The Revelation came from Yahweh....through Jesus, to an angel, and then to John. Yahweh is the source of all things...including this “water of life” that was promised.
The God of Jesus Christ, who could do nothing, and promise nothing, from himself. Every promise he conveyed was from his God and Father.
All the things that God promised mankind, came “through” his son....but not “from” him.
Col 1:15-17 confirms that Jesus is God’s “firstborn” who existed before anything or anyone else. Creation was made “through him and for him”, which makes creation a gift to the son from his Father.
Together they brought it all into existence, but all the power was from one source....God’s powerful spirit.
The Almighty God and his son is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26. (Prov 8: 22-31)
If we can understand the stewardship of the Christ as God’s Commander in Chief...his mouthpiece (logos) to the world of mankind, then we can appreciate his role as it is...not as something invented by an apostate church system centuries after Christ’s death.
Jesus had to save creation from what Adam did to us. Satan had tempted the humans into disobedience and sullied God’s gift, but in his love for what he had helped to bring into existence, Jesus gladly offered his life to save us, and to restore God’s gift to what God had originally intended for it. (Isa 55:11)
Jesus will resurrect all the dead and give each individual what they deserve.....he is not going to read labels.....but even the power to resurrect the dead comes from God. Until Jesus was 30 years old he was just ‘Jesus the carpenters son’ in the minds of men....only at his baptism, and with the power of the Holy Spirit did Jesus become “the Christ”.
Jesus has been appointed by his God and Father to do the judging.
John 5: 22...
“ For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son”.
The son renders his Father’s righteous judgment.
The “Alpha and the Omega” is a title that the Almighty alone claims as his own....he is “the beginning and end” of all things, which take place according to his will, and are carried out with his power alone. A power he gives generously in due measure to those who are faithful to him, and who follow the teachings of his son......all of which came from his God and Father.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I beg to differ......For centuries, scholars thought that the Tetragrammaton was absent from manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Then, in the mid-20th century, some very old fragments of the Greek Septuagint version that existed in Jesus’ day were brought to the attention of scholars. Those fragments contain the personal name of God, written in Hebrew characters in the Greek text. So in Jesus’ day, copies of the Scriptures in Greek did contain the divine name. However, by the fourth century C.E., major manuscripts of the Greek Septuagint, such as the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, did not contain the divine name in the books from Genesis through Malachi (where it had been in earlier manuscripts). So, it is not surprising that in texts preserved from that time period, the divine name is not found in the Greek Scripture portion of the Bible.
This why the NWT restores the divine name (or the English translation of it...see Psalm 83:18 KJV) in all the places where it originally appears in the Hebrew Scriptures....almost 7000 times it was removed and substituted with a title.....a title that came to cause confusion in identiying the “the LORD God” from the “Lord Jesus Christ”....as if the title “Lord” only meant “God” (capital “G”).
Sarah called Abraham ”lord” because it was a title of respect. Slaves called their masters “lord”....but no one was assuming that it meant anything else.....until the apostate church saw an opportunity to create confusion about that title that has remained to this day.
We need to be Bible students, not merely Bible readers with only one source of biased information. We live in an Information Age so there are no longer any excuses for ignorance. There are no end of resources to read for ourselves and make up our own minds. The truth is there for all who put in the effort to dig.....which is why it is referred to as “buried” or “hidden treasure”.....but it wasn’t buried by God......some simply don’t want to do their own digging....as it was in Jesus’ day. They are happy to be spoon fed as long as they don’t have to do much in order to be called a “Christian”.
By the way...I am still waiting for the Scripture where Jesus states categorically that he is “God” with a capital “G”. Can’t you find one?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
What do you hope to prove? That the Jews didn't believe in the devil?
They don't believe in Jesus either, these are the people who missed their Messiah. Are you sure you want to follow their example?
RLT63
Well-Known Member
You can't prove that God exists, does that mean he doesn't?
The Jews of Jesus day were very reactive to blasphemy. Many times they took up stones to kill Him.
It is not surprising that Jesus would avoid such an announcement.
John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:57-59 NIV
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Prove the true meaning of the lament which God gave concerning the King of Tyre.
If you're not interested that's your prerogative but don't misrepresent the chapter like Jane regularly does.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
No doubt you can sense in yourself an oppositional spirit which is the exact same spirit Jane reveals when dealing with things she cannot prove.
Regarding your statement above:
Romans 1:20 “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”
Without excuse!
Here is a challenge Jane could not prove also - take me to the Lord's ministry and show me where he sits down to talk his disciples about your evil fallen angel.
Be interested in seeing that!
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RLT63
Well-Known Member
QUESTION
Is the king of Tyre prophecy in Ezekiel 28 referring to Satan?
ANSWER
At first glance, the prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to refer to a human king. The city of Tyre was the recipient of some of the strongest prophetic condemnations in the Bible (Isaiah 23:1–18; Jeremiah 25:22; 27:1–11; Ezekiel 26:1– 28:19; Joel 3:4–8; Amos 1:9, 10). Tyre was known for building its wealth by exploiting its neighbors. Ancient writers referred to Tyre as a city filled with unscrupulous merchants. Tyre was a center of religious idolatry and sexual immorality. The biblical prophets rebuked Tyre for its pride brought on by its great wealth and strategic location. Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to be a particularly strong indictment against the king of Tyre in the prophet Ezekiel’s day, rebuking the king for his insatiable pride and greed.
However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.
Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).
Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others. But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal destruction, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:17–21) and ultimately by Alexander the Great.
Source: Got Questions
RLT63
Well-Known Member
Luk 22:31 - And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 - But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted,strengthen thy brethren.
Also, a Bible verse does not prove that God exists. I know that he does but you have not offered proof
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Funny that they were reactive to blasphemy when someone they disliked committed it (ITO) but not so sensitive when they themselves committed it by not accepting him as the “son of God” which is all he ever called himself. They called him a fraud and said that he got his power from Beelzebub....the leader of the demons or another name for the devil.
So was “calling God his own Father” really “making himself equal with God”?
Didn’t God have many “sons” in heaven.....? I don’t see them balking at that. Even Job spoke of them shouting for joy when God had finished his material creation.
Job 38:4-7... God asked Job....
“Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Do you know who determined its dimensions or who stretched the measuring line across it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (CJB)
In the NIV these “sons of God” are called “angels”.
He even called Israel his “son”...his “firstborn”. (Ex 4:22)....so why did they specifically target Jesus for blasphemy?
Read John 10:31-36 in an Interlinear and see that the Jews were not accusing him of claiming to be God (ho theos) but of being equal with God by being able to perform miracles....(John 5:18) they had no answer for that so, they made up the story in order to have grounds to have him put to death under Jewish Law. But Pilate was having none of that...Jews had no authority to execute anyone under Roman Law, so at his trial, they had false witnesses and accused him, but still Pilate found nothing deserving of death in his speech or conduct.....and wanted to let him go....the Pharisees resorted to blackmail, threatening Pilate’s own position by accusing him of treason.
Pilate gave in under that pressure....and threw in a painful flogging to appease them.
If you see what the question was that he was answering there...it was that he claimed to have existed before Abraham.....and this is what they were riled up about....Jesus didn’t say “before Abraham was born I am”....
If you look that up in the Interlinear it can be correctly translated as “before Abraham was born I have been” ....or “I was”. I was a past tense question that needed a past tense answer, but what is inferred in most translations is a past tense question with a a present tense answer....that is nonsense.
Exodus 3:15 has no connection with John 8:58 at all....unless you accept the mistranslation.
He was answering a question about his age, not his status as a deity. Not once in all of Scripture did Jesus ever directly say that he was God.
Not every Greek scrap or fragment must be included into the Septuagint editions. Like not every English fragment is the KJV. Or like not every Latin fragment is the Vulgate.
There is no Septuagint edition with the YHWH tetragrammaton. If scholars will change their mind, they will include it in the critical editions. And so far, they have not.
The Bible translation of Jehovah Witnesses (the NWT) is terrible, sectarian and not accepted as a usable one by non-Jehovists, if they know what they are doing.
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Can you find one where Jesus states categorically that he is "god" with a small "g"? Can't you find one?
These are silly requirements. Greek manuscripts do not distinguish between small and capital letters. As I already told you. Everything was written in capital letters (I know you have no ability to see it, but these are all capital letters):
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
You never answered the question:QUESTION
Is the king of Tyre prophecy in Ezekiel 28 referring to Satan?
ANSWER
At first glance, the prophecy in Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to refer to a human king. The city of Tyre was the recipient of some of the strongest prophetic condemnations in the Bible (Isaiah 23:1–18; Jeremiah 25:22; 27:1–11; Ezekiel 26:1– 28:19; Joel 3:4–8; Amos 1:9, 10). Tyre was known for building its wealth by exploiting its neighbors. Ancient writers referred to Tyre as a city filled with unscrupulous merchants. Tyre was a center of religious idolatry and sexual immorality. The biblical prophets rebuked Tyre for its pride brought on by its great wealth and strategic location. Ezekiel 28:11–19 seems to be a particularly strong indictment against the king of Tyre in the prophet Ezekiel’s day, rebuking the king for his insatiable pride and greed.
However, some of the descriptions in Ezekiel 28:11–19 go beyond any mere human king. In no sense could an earthly king claim to be “in Eden” or to be “the anointed cherub who covers” or to be “on the holy mountain of God.” Therefore, most Bible interpreters believe that Ezekiel 28:11–19 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan. Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.
Before his fall, Satan was indeed a beautiful creature (Ezekiel 28:12–13). He was perhaps the most beautiful and powerful of all the angels. The phrase “guardian cherub” possibly indicates that Satan was the angel who “guarded” God’s presence. Pride led to Satan’s fall. Rather than give God the glory for creating him so beautifully, Satan took pride in himself, thinking that he himself was responsible for his exalted status. Satan’s rebellion resulted in God casting Satan from His presence and will, eventually, result in God condemning Satan to the lake of fire for all eternity (Revelation 20:10).
Like Satan, the human king of Tyre was prideful. Rather than recognize God’s sovereignty, the king of Tyre attributed Tyre’s riches to his own wisdom and strength. Not satisfied with his extravagant position, the king of Tyre sought more and more, resulting in Tyre taking advantage of other nations, expanding its own wealth at the expense of others. But just as Satan’s pride led to his fall and will eventually lead to his eternal destruction, so will the city of Tyre lose its wealth, power, and status. Ezekiel’s prophecy of Tyre’s total destruction was fulfilled partially by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezekiel 29:17–21) and ultimately by Alexander the Great.
Source: Got Questions
Why would God use those symbols in relation to the King of Tyre?
If you cannot discern the context, its meaning is lost on you. Don't copy and false teaching as if its providing you God's wisdom, its not.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
LOL....Can you show us exactly where the NWT is in error......empty words unless you have proof....and I mean proof, not just scholars’ opinions. They are a dime a dozen...so you pick your scholars and I will pick mine. You cannot prove anything by the opinions of scholars especially when they are trained ( or more correctly indoctrinated ) in biased educational facilities.
I have studied many translations and to date have not found a single one without glaring translation errors...
The NWT IMO is the closest to the truth. You are welcome to your own opinions.
Silly for whom? I simply aslked you to furnish a single verse in the Bible where Jesus says that he is part of a triune godhead. If there was one, you would have posted it straight away.....end of argument.
You know there isn’t one but can’t admit it....it makes you look foolish when you all you can do is post lame arguments and excuses with no substance to them.
Whose words are more important than Jesus’?
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? | GotQuestions.org
Is the New World Translation a valid version of the Bible? Did the Jehovah’s Witnessess intentionally alter the Bible to create the New World Translation?
www.gotquestions.org
- CARM
The following are some of the many bad “translations” offered by the Watchtower Bible Tract Society’s translation of the Bible known as the New World Transla...
You cannot even read Greek, so your personal studies are not relevant.
First you wanted "ho theos", then you wanted the capital G, now you want Jesus saying He is a part of a triune godhead and you want to ignore the teachings of His apostles... typical with Jehovists. Always some weird requirements, inventions and limitations.
Do you affirm or reject that Jesus died on the cross?
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Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
How can you write this while being completely unaware of how the Trinitarian dogma developed? If you had even a fraction of understanding of its history, you couldn’t, in good conscience, present such an error.
Brakelite
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Of course I agree. It isn't a new revelation. That we should allow the holy Spirit to develop the mind of Christ in those who are His isn't controversial or in doubt.
Brakelite
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Why not? We aren't told how, but we are told numerous times of the very real ontological relationship between Father and Son. The apostle John even said that without a relationship with them both, we are lost. Which is why it is so important we get their relationship right.
Would you agree that when Scripture says God gave His only begotten Son, them out follows that God had a Son to send? I look at the bringing forth of the Son as the antitype to Daniel 2...
“Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. ”
Daniel 2:45 KJV
Yes He did, but not as an independent personality. That began when begotten some time before creation. How can He be Son of of the same antiquity as the one Who gave Him life? And gave Him, the Father did. Jesus said so.
“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; ”
John 5:26 KJV
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