No Escape : From Hell

[Jack]

I came out of Christendom,

You should have paid attention to God's warning!

1 Timothy 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy,

so I know what it teaches, and now I know what God’s word teaches.....

JW's only know what their Watchtower masters teach them.

 

[GodsGrace]

verily verily i say unto thee , ye forgot to make mention of the unholy sea and the mother of all abominations .
Who has sold Christ out for power and for to rule over the merged religoins as one .
You started the list real good and strong
but forgot to include Their mother . THEY WILL ALL MERGE as one under her as will the false relgioins with them .
heed not and never heed her call . For the call of the wellfavored harlot is but a call of death leading only to the second death .
ye shall know her and her children by their call to unify , to hear the ecumenical cry of the lets be one
that also now even merges in with the false religoins under her guise of interfaith . The ho sleeps not
and we want no part of her cup of fornication .

Amigo,,,
I know this is your fear,,,
but I just can't see the CC pairing up with Protestantism
and I can't see Protestantism pairing up with the CC.

I just don't.
Too many differences.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amigo,,,
I know this is your fear,,,
but I just can't see the CC pairing up with Protestantism
and I can't see Protestantism pairing up with the CC.

I just don't.
Too many differences.

Then my friend .
You aint been seeing what is going on my friend .
They glued together under the motto that its not doctrine that matters but unity .
AND THAT IS Causing the merging and the down fall of them all .
People dont care anymore my friend .
Mormons are now even called children of GOD by this generation .
THEY BEEN MERGED . we all catholic , EVER HEARD THAT MOTTO .
THAT IS THE MERGER . OH yes i bet its in your church too .
I bet they got you , in part at least , already into the unity and the idea its all about being catholic .
OF course they dont use the words RCC . which was wise on their part .
BUT BELIEVE ME this merger IS COMING RIGHT FROM HER . lest ye think the popes
are not connected to this . OH THEY HAVE BEEN . The vatican and united merged ones have been at work .
THEY are merged already in heart mind , in soul and knit together as was jonathan and david
WHEN IT COMES TO THIS UNITY ECUMENCIAL love stuff .
AS far as doc trine s. Not really . BUT THEN none of them really ever cared about doctrine that much anway , IF AT ALL .
THEY ALL are fast and willing to overlook key doctrines for sake of unity . I DONT HOPE ON SUCH A TRAIN .
For my UNITY IS UNDER CHRIST and the sheep dont omit doctrines for unity . NO mam .

 

[quietthinker]

No Escape : From Hell​

if one insists on exploding atom bombs, strengthening the military industrial complex, poisoning the oceans, ripping off workers, glorifying oppressors under the guise of liberation, forcing peoples will and all those complicit in these process, hell is on your heels.

 

[TazzJazz]

And Jesus said to love our enemy....

Yes, as per Matthew 5:44. We need to love people; but not necessarily the institutions they're a part of. In fact, your above statement is one of the main ways we. can determine which religion has Jesus' approval.

Because as we see on this very site, we can go round and round on doctrine; nothing ever gets settled. But actions are what Jesus said to look for; and the "fruitage" of those actions. (Matthew 7:15-20)

Obviously, during a war would be the hardest time to obey this command of Jesus (to love our enemies). But Jesus didn't say, "do this only when its convenient"; He said, "If you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" Its about being loving, during the most challenging of times.



Now, I address everyone reading this.....
Suppose our respective countries began fighting each other.
I ask 3 rhetorical questions of all Christians here:
Would you kill me?
Would your denomination approve of that? (Because most have.)
And what do you think Christ would say?

(Here's His words, at Matthew 7:22,23) Please, think seriously about this.



Christian love, TazzJazz

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, as per Matthew 5:44. We need to love people; but not necessarily the institutions they're a part of. In fact, your above statement is one of the main ways we. can determine which religion has Jesus' approval.

Because as we see on this very site, we can go round and round on doctrine; nothing ever gets settled. But actions are what Jesus said to look for; and the "fruitage" of those actions. (Matthew 7:15-20)

Obviously, during a war would be the hardest time to obey this command of Jesus (to love our enemies). But Jesus didn't say, "do this only when its convenient"; He said, "If you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" Its about being loving, during the most challenging of times.



Now, I address everyone reading this.....
Suppose our respective countries began fighting each other.
I ask 3 rhetorical questions of all Christians here:
Would you kill me?
Would your denomination approve of that? (Because most have.)
And what do you think Christ would say?

(Here's His words, at Matthew 7:22,23) Please, think seriously about this.



Christian love, TazzJazz

Participating in violence towards anyone for whatever reason, indicates Love has not been understood.

I Corinthians 13; a treatise on Love/ God

 

[Marymog]

I am not admitting that at all....since the teachings of the apostles were recorded for our benefit in Scripture....all we need to know is in the Bible.....just not in “the chuch’s” false interpretation of scripture.

Jane,

Can you really not see how you are talking in circles and opposite of what Scripture teaches? Scripture LITERALLY speaks of and gives examples of Apostolic Succession. For you to deny what is written in Scripture AND the logic of APostolic Succession is amazing. The Apostles LITERALLY chose men to succeed them and those men that the Apostles picked chose other men and those men chose other men and so on and so on.......but that logic and that FACT written in Scripture escapes you.

For you to say all we need to know is the bible is bizarre and fascinating. For the first 300 years of Christianity, they disagreed on what Scripture was. What that means is for the first 300 years YOU would appeal to Scripture to make your case for the 'truth' of Scripture but if I lived 1,000 miles away and had a different bishop I would have a few more or less books for my Scripture to appeal to. It wasn't until the mid 300's that Scripture was codified. ALSO, for the first 1,500+ years of Christianity Scripture wasn't available to the average person AND the average person couldn't read.....Oh goodness. This is a waste of time.

I will pretend your fantasy is true. Here is how your fantasy scenario works out: Scriptures, in general, were written over a 100-year span. During that 100 year span the average Christian was given those Scriptures (letters) by the Apostles because they believed what you, Jane, believe in which is that "all we need to know is the Bible". The Apostles and the bishops of the local churches gave those letters to the average church going Christians and said, "Here you go. These are the latest writings from the Apostles that just got delivered from Jerusalem. Go home, read them, figure them out on your own and we will see you next Sunday so YOU can tell US (the Apostles and bishops appointed by the Apostles) your interpretation of these letters (that will one day be called Scripture)." The following Sunday they all get back together, and Aunty Jane stands up and says, "When I read this letter from Paul I think it means XYZ therefore XYZ is the 'truth'." Marymog stands up and says, "When I read this letter from Paul I think it means ABC therefore ABC is the 'truth'." The bishop stands up and says, "When I read Pauls letters I think it means ABXZ therefore ABXZ is the "truth". So Marymog you have some truth and Jane you have some truth. In my opinion both of you have some of the truth and your truth is just as valid as anyone's truth." The bishop then announces, "Time for us to partake of bread/wine like Jesus told us to do in remembrance of Him. The bishop then passes around the bread/wine and repeats Jesus words: "This IS my body/blood." Jane speaks up and says, "NOOOOO bishop, it is a symbol of His body and blood." Marymog says, "NOOOOO Jane, it is His body and blood, just like He said." The bishop speaks up and says, "Ahhhh heck girls, believe what you want. You are both right. Now let's partake and stop arguing over silly little things."

A few weeks later Jane announces to her church members, "I have found some people that believe what I believe so we are starting our own church". Marymog says, "I am staying in this church. I think it is teaching the "truth" and has properly interpreted these letters". The bishop then says to Jane, "I am happy for you. Just remember that "all you need to know is the bible" and YOU will find the 'truth'. The bishop goes on to say, "BTW Jane, I heard that they are delivering a letter from the Apostle John next week. This news is soooo exciting. Once I get a copy of it, I will deliver it to your new church so you and your friends can interpret it and come up with your truth, and we will compare your truth to our truth and see who really has THE truth".

If all we need is the bible Jane then how can you say that ANYONE, let alone the Catholic Church, has a false interpretation of Scripture? After all, we have the Bible just like you. It sounds like we need something more than the Bible since YOU KNOW that the RCC is misinterpreting Scripture. How do you KNOW that unless you have something more than the Bible?

Keeping it real with facts instead of fantasy.........Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

That is your opinion and you are free to believe whatever you wish about who we are, and what we say.....Jesus gave the Jews the same option....and the majority thought that their religious leaders were correct....and had the son of God put to death. History repeats. Don’t we need to know why?

Not my opinion.
WHEN was the religion of the Witnesses invented?
I believe it was 1830.

So HOW is it my opinion???
It's a NEW religion that was invented by A MAN...

Your original statement was that we should not follow MEN/A MAN.

Which is EXACTLY what YOU are doing.

Actually it is biblical....because once you learn the truth, you cannot “unlearn” it or “unknow” it.....all you can do is ignore it.
If some individual in the congregation is blatantly breaking God’s laws as commanded by Jesus, then the congregation elders are under obligation to expel them because “a little leaven ferments the whole lump”.

So you mean that if I left the CC then I'm going straight to hell because I broke some church rule?

That sounds like authoritariansim....
not the Christian faith.

This is not something done without due process......and the Internet is full of horror stories that most people believe without hearing the other side of the sob story. If our national judicial systems operated like that, who would ever get justice? One side can sound so convincing until you hear the other side....so how can people be so convinced with just one skewed side of a story? They want to believe it.

You know Auntie Jane...
The INTERNET was not always around.
Please don't pull the internet card on me...
I'm a bit too old for that.

Why are the churches reluctant to act on that directive stated clearly by the apostle Paul?
1Cor 5:9-13....ESV...
“I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Maybe because a person can do what he wants to do?
Maybe because a person doesn't care to be a good Christian.

You're following a very LEGALISTIC cult.

Do you answer to God
or to your elders?

What about the dissenters who want to promote their own ideas in the congregation and cause division?
John also wrote in his second letter.....
“Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:9-11 ESV)

Wow.
Unbelievable stuff !!

WHO caused more division than Charles Russell???

He started a NEW religion!!

Should you fear that punishment? Who in their right mind would not fear any punishment for wrongdoing?
Why did God have penalties under his law....even death?
You cannot “join” Jehovah’s Witnesses...like the first century Christians, you first have to learn the truth and choose to become a Christian, demonstrated then publicly by water baptism, which like Jesus, was a commitment to follow a certain course in life from that day forward. The onus is on the individual to live up to that dedication. Like a marriage, you cannot just walk away and pretend it never happened. There is due process in a divorce.

If the churches acted on those directives, how many would remain in that church? Where would the pastor get his money? Should he actually get a job and pay his own way? Or was he to become an expensive burden to the congregation? (1 Thess2:9) Paul was a tentmaker by trade and often worked to earn his own living. (Acts 18:1-4)

And who is paid to do the Lord’s work? Didn’t Jesus say...”you received free, give free”? Whatever happened to that?


That has been an accusation, but to date, I have not found a single instance that was not supported by other scripture. Doctrine should not dictate how God’s word is translated......have you examined those verses for yourself? I have....because I examine everything very carefully.

I came out of Christendom, so I know what it teaches, and now I know what God’s word teaches.....”never the twain shall meet”.
When you study the Bible rather than theology, you get the whole picture, not the churches distorted version of it.

You should have stayed in Christendom.
It's the one and true religion.

LOL.....no, sorry....I am part of a Christian brotherhood whose members go back to the first century.
What we have is a restoration of first century Christianity.....not the pathetic imitation created by the devil that engulfed the world and turned it into a sham....just as Jesus said it would.....hopelessly divided and disobedient to the teachings of the Christ. What fruitage can it boast when it ignores Christ’s most basic commands?

The JWs go back to the first century?
Funny stuff.

So you believe the early church believed that JESUS IS NOT GOD?

The religion followed by Christendom is the “invention”.....starting in the second century and slowly infiltrating to weaken Christ’s teachings, watering them down while still promoting itself as a product of Christ and his apostles....if God’s spirit was operative on those who identify as “Christians” today....there would be no divisions or dissension....all would be united....or don’t you think God’s powerful spirit can accomplish that? (1 Cor 1:10)

The “wheat” exist in the world, doing what Christ commanded.....we need to find them, but we cannot do it alone. (John 6:44; 65)

You should learn some history.
You should get out of that cult you're in.
You should follow Jesus instead of Charles Russell.

 

[GodsGrace]

“Let’s be honest?” I’m all for honesty...so who said we needed to be theologians?

This is what YOU stated to which I was replying that we do NOT need to be theologians in order to be saved:

From your post no. 394:
"He can count on their ignorance....and their laziness. They want someone to know it all for them...and just spoon feed them what they want to hear.....the truth, as Jesus presented it, was confronting, as it should be. It has the same effect today."

We have the example of the ancient Boereans whom Paul commended for their thorough search of the Scriptures to make sure that what he taught them was genuine, agreeing with what God’s word taught. (Acts 17:10-12)
Did the Boereans need to be theologians in order to do that? No.....they just needed access to the Scriptures.
Who today cannot access the Bible and refer to reliable resources to check the authenticity of the translations they prefer?
God has always provided teachers for his people....we just have to be careful whom we accept as our teachers....the devil has more than Jesus does.

It has nothing to do with hatred for anyone....like God, I hate liars...the church has lied to people for centuries, pretending to be what it clearly isn’t....”a pillar and support of the truth”.....what truth would that be I wonder? That is what got me interested in studying the Bible in the first place....the churches were all over the place and I wondered who were actually telling the truth? I saw so much hypocrisy and jumping into bed with corrupt politics. We are told by Jesus to be “no part of the world”, (John 18:36) yet all through history, the church has been at the side of the political rulers, supporting their wars and bloodshed. (Isa 1:15)

Jesus will let us all know soon enough.....God is giving us all “enough rope”.....our choices determine our eternal destiny. Free will is a blessing.....for some...but a curse for others?

The Jews were not uneducated as they were taught from childhood what the Scriptures said. Attendance at the Synagogue would have imparted knowledge to them as God’s word was read to them every week.
You might recall Mary’s knowledge of Scripture as she recited many verses from memory.

Who has created the divide of clergy and laity? Who said that only “ministers” or “priests” need to go to theological colleges and seminaries to understand the Scriptures? The church did that in imitation of the Pharisees, not Jesus, who chose uneducated men to spread the gospel. He taught them to teach others....that is the way Christianity was spread.

That made me smile....define “civilized”.....according to the dictionary, it means....”at an advanced stage of social and cultural development”.....”to be polite and well mannered”.....

Now, I don’t know about you, but I fail to see how the RCC fits the description of what it means to civilize it’s subjects.....

Did I say the CC civilized its subjects?
This is what I said:

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CIVILIZING OF THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT.
AND
IT'S THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT INVENTED THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM OF LEARNING...IOW, HIGHER EDUCATION.

And, BTW, there's no ROMAN in the Catholic Church.
Roman is a rite,,,
not a church.

And you want to speak about ignorance.

certainly not by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Inquisition alone was so far removed from the personality of Jesus, that it is very obvious that civility was never at the base of their activities....their aim was to control the masses by keeping them in ignorance, with threatens of torture, both in the flesh, as well as eternal torture in the flames in hell.....

Please help me understand your reasoning...because it is nothing close to my own evaluation of how it is in Christendom today, compared to how it was in the first century.....not even remotely similar.

Here it is again:
THE CHURCH IS PURE.
MAN IS NOT.

There's enough blame to go around.
We're not in heaven just yet.

Crimes Committed by Jehovah's Witnesses

The AAWA Project Map is a database to intensify public awareness of crimes committed by Jehovah's Witnesses on a worldwide scale.

avoidjw.org

If you study church history, you'll know how it was in the first century.
You don't need me for that and I'm not up to wasting my time.

As you've stated,,,
we have the internet now...
Learn how early Christianity was.

For starters: They believed Jesus is God and thus they believed in the Trinity.
Plenty of writing on what they believed about everything,,,including BAPTISM,,,which you do not even believe is necessary.
Including how worship was done....it included the EUCHARIST.

And so much more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then my friend .
You aint been seeing what is going on my friend .
They glued together under the motto that its not doctrine that matters but unity .
AND THAT IS Causing the merging and the down fall of them all .
People dont care anymore my friend .
Mormons are now even called children of GOD by this generation .
THEY BEEN MERGED . we all catholic , EVER HEARD THAT MOTTO .
THAT IS THE MERGER . OH yes i bet its in your church too .
I bet they got you , in part at least , already into the unity and the idea its all about being catholic .
OF course they dont use the words RCC . which was wise on their part .
BUT BELIEVE ME this merger IS COMING RIGHT FROM HER . lest ye think the popes
are not connected to this . OH THEY HAVE BEEN . The vatican and united merged ones have been at work .
THEY are merged already in heart mind , in soul and knit together as was jonathan and david
WHEN IT COMES TO THIS UNITY ECUMENCIAL love stuff .
AS far as doc trine s. Not really . BUT THEN none of them really ever cared about doctrine that much anway , IF AT ALL .
THEY ALL are fast and willing to overlook key doctrines for sake of unity . I DONT HOPE ON SUCH A TRAIN .
For my UNITY IS UNDER CHRIST and the sheep dont omit doctrines for unity . NO mam .

I don't belong to any church.
If I go to church, it'll be the CC since that's what I have here in my small town.
But I feel like the man without a country.
Except I'm a girl without a church !

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, as per Matthew 5:44. We need to love people; but not necessarily the institutions they're a part of. In fact, your above statement is one of the main ways we. can determine which religion has Jesus' approval.

Because as we see on this very site, we can go round and round on doctrine; nothing ever gets settled. But actions are what Jesus said to look for; and the "fruitage" of those actions. (Matthew 7:15-20)

I agree with you.
You keep giving Auntie Jane likes so I'm going to think you might be a JW.
Let's make clear that I'm not saying God is not pleased with you....
All I'm saying is that you're not Christian...big difference.

I agree that all Jesus taught for over 3 years was based on BEHAVIOR.

As to agreeing on doctrine...
the church agreed...
until the reformation...
which was necessary,
but created division.

Obviously, during a war would be the hardest time to obey this command of Jesus (to love our enemies). But Jesus didn't say, "do this only when its convenient"; He said, "If you love those loving you, what reward do you have?" Its about being loving, during the most challenging of times.



Now, I address everyone reading this.....
Suppose our respective countries began fighting each other.
I ask 3 rhetorical questions of all Christians here:
Would you kill me?

If you wanted to kill me and I could - I'd kill you first.
Self-defense.
Nothing to do with loving our enemy.
Families also need protecting.

Would your denomination approve of that? (Because most have.)
And what do you think Christ would say?

Christ told the Apostles to sell a tunic and buy a sword.
For protection.

Luke 22:36
36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

(Here's His words, at Matthew 7:22,23) Please, think seriously about this.

Ooops. You didn't post the scripture.
Most don't.
If you want those reading along to know the scripture,,,
you're going to have to post it !

Christian love, TazzJazz

Same to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Keeping it real with facts instead of fantasy.........Mary

Really? If you think that post is without fantasy, I’ll just leave it there for others to evaluate....what a waste of time that was...

Sorry, but your accusations are invented by our opposers, devoid of any factual knowledge about who we are, loaded with hear-say, and amount to absolute fantasy.....cringeworthy actually....but if you are happy to believe what you hear...that is your choice.

Try to remember what happened in Jesus’ day and see how history repeats......you just can’t see it....it’s a “blindness” that Paul spoke about. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

The RCC has so much blood on its hands.....as does the rest of Christendom who support the bloodshed of their nations, even justifying the killing of their own brethren on the opposing side......Is that “Christianity”?
Not the one that Jesus promoted. (Matt 5:43-44; 1 John 4:20-21)

 

[GodsGrace]

Jane,

Can you really not see how you are talking in circles and opposite of what Scripture teaches? Scripture LITERALLY speaks of and gives examples of Apostolic Succession. For you to deny what is written in Scripture AND the logic of APostolic Succession is amazing. The Apostles LITERALLY chose men to succeed them and those men that the Apostles picked chose other men and those men chose other men and so on and so on.......but that logic and that FACT written in Scripture escapes you.

For you to say all we need to know is the bible is bizarre and fascinating. For the first 300 years of Christianity, they disagreed on what Scripture was. What that means is for the first 300 years YOU would appeal to Scripture to make your case for the 'truth' of Scripture but if I lived 1,000 miles away and had a different bishop I would have a few more or less books for my Scripture to appeal to. It wasn't until the mid 300's that Scripture was codified. ALSO, for the first 1,500+ years of Christianity Scripture wasn't available to the average person AND the average person couldn't read.....Oh goodness. This is a waste of time.

I will pretend your fantasy is true. Here is how your fantasy scenario works out: Scriptures, in general, were written over a 100-year span. During that 100 year span the average Christian was given those Scriptures (letters) by the Apostles because they believed what you, Jane, believe in which is that "all we need to know is the Bible". The Apostles and the bishops of the local churches gave those letters to the average church going Christians and said, "Here you go. These are the latest writings from the Apostles that just got delivered from Jerusalem. Go home, read them, figure them out on your own and we will see you next Sunday so YOU can tell US (the Apostles and bishops appointed by the Apostles) your interpretation of these letters (that will one day be called Scripture)." The following Sunday they all get back together, and Aunty Jane stands up and says, "When I read this letter from Paul I think it means XYZ therefore XYZ is the 'truth'." Marymog stands up and says, "When I read this letter from Paul I think it means ABC therefore ABC is the 'truth'." The bishop stands up and says, "When I read Pauls letters I think it means ABXZ therefore ABXZ is the "truth". So Marymog you have some truth and Jane you have some truth. In my opinion both of you have some of the truth and your truth is just as valid as anyone's truth." The bishop then announces, "Time for us to partake of bread/wine like Jesus told us to do in remembrance of Him. The bishop then passes around the bread/wine and repeats Jesus words: "This IS my body/blood." Jane speaks up and says, "NOOOOO bishop, it is a symbol of His body and blood." Marymog says, "NOOOOO Jane, it is His body and blood, just like He said." The bishop speaks up and says, "Ahhhh heck girls, believe what you want. You are both right. Now let's partake and stop arguing over silly little things."

A few weeks later Jane announces to her church members, "I have found some people that believe what I believe so we are starting our own church". Marymog says, "I am staying in this church. I think it is teaching the "truth" and has properly interpreted these letters". The bishop then says to Jane, "I am happy for you. Just remember that "all you need to know is the bible" and YOU will find the 'truth'. The bishop goes on to say, "BTW Jane, I heard that they are delivering a letter from the Apostle John next week. This news is soooo exciting. Once I get a copy of it, I will deliver it to your new church so you and your friends can interpret it and come up with your truth, and we will compare your truth to our truth and see who really has THE truth".

If all we need is the bible Jane then how can you say that ANYONE, let alone the Catholic Church, has a false interpretation of Scripture? After all, we have the Bible just like you. It sounds like we need something more than the Bible since YOU KNOW that the RCC is misinterpreting Scripture. How do you KNOW that unless you have something more than the Bible?

Keeping it real with facts instead of fantasy.........Mary

Great post!
Indeed all true.
It's practically common sense...even with no knowledge of history.

Some complain about a church divided....
While they belong to a sect that has caused the division.

PS
To say nothing of the fact thatvit cost about a year's wage to have a personal bible....only the very wealthy could even afford one.

Oh, the wonders of reality....

 

[Aunty Jane]

FWIW, let me address some of your points, as the truth needs to be told here in all fairness.

Your original statement was that we should not follow MEN/A MAN.

Which is EXACTLY what YOU are doing.

You reveal so much about yourself in these responses GG.....
What exactly are YOU doing...?

You “don’t belong to any church” by your own admission...but that apparently has no bearing on much at all if you can justify “Catholicism” as “the church” that Jesus started. She is the ‘mother’ of Christendom...not Christianity.

So you mean that if I left the CC then I'm going straight to hell because I broke some church rule?

That sounds like authoritariansim....
not the Christian faith.

I provided the Scriptural support for that...a full quotation from the NCB....but it was ignored.
Here is the part you argued with....God says...
“For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Who was Paul speaking about? He told the leaders of the church to judge those “inside” it, whilst God judged those ‘outside’ of it......pretty clear statements. It was to be done under authority from God himself.
Who were the leaders of the church in the first century after the death of Christ? The apostles and elders appointed in the congregations to whom Paul addresses this directive....

“Do not neglect to do good works and to share with others what you have, for these are the kind of sacrifices that please God. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls and will have to render an account in that regard. Make this a joy for them to do rather than a grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (NCB)

“Authoritarian” you say? Who would be left in the Catholic Faith today if that directive was followed? How many Catholic priests would still be standing? When was that directive rescinded?

You know Auntie Jane...
The INTERNET was not always around.
Please don't pull the internet card on me...
I'm a bit too old for that.

Maybe you are not as old as I am?.....the Internet makes lack of knowledge, a choice. There is no longer an excuse for ignorance. This is why we are in “the last days” of this present world system, crumbling before our eyes....(2 Tim 3:1-5) The choices we make now will have everlasting consequences.

Maybe because a person can do what he wants to do?
Maybe because a person doesn't care to be a good Christian.

You're following a very LEGALISTIC cult.

Do you answer to God
or to your elders?

We are told to obey our leaders, who are the ones accountable to God for how they care for Jesus’ sheep.
As one who has had countless conversations with Catholic people over decades of interactions, I can honestly say that Catholic people are the most ignorant of biblical truth. They are the most appalled when they study the Bible for themselves.....angry to have been lied to for most of their lives, but grateful to have been liberated from those shackles. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

WHO caused more division than Charles Russell???

He started a NEW religion!!

Oh please....what’s with the drama? Charles Russell was one of many who in the later 1800’s was moved to question Christendom’s divisive teachings. There were many who rose up at that time because there was a groundswell of discontent with the whole church system. Most had no way to express their concerns. Mainstream denominations were losing members through teachings that never made sense....and as literacy and access to God’s word increased, so the numbers in Christendom’s churches began to decline. It was “the lost sheep” scenario all over again. The leaders of the church just treated them as heretics!

God made sure that there was somewhere for them to go....just as it was in original Christianity.....there was a clear cut division from Judaism that took place, and animosity from the mainstream faith, followed.

You should have stayed in Christendom.
It's the one and true religion.

If you think so, that is your prerogative, but your responses here are pretty lame, if you are trying to justify your favoured church by simply denigrating mine. It’s an old trick but a lot of people still fall for it.

The JWs go back to the first century?
Funny stuff.

So you believe the early church believed that JESUS IS NOT GOD?

The beliefs of JW’s go back to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles....we believe what Jesus and the apostles taught...they did not hold that belief.

Collectively they said.....
“...we know that idols are nothing in the world and that there is only one God. Indeed, even though there are so-called gods in heaven and on earth—and there are in fact many gods and many lords— for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.” (1 Cor 8:4-6 NCB)

Their only God was “the Father” and their “one Lord “ was Jesus Christ....no mention of a third party.
Calling Jesus their “Lord” is not calling him God. It was a title of respect in Bible times.

This is what YOU stated to which I was replying that we do NOT need to be theologians in order to be saved:

From your post no. 394:
"He can count on their ignorance....and their laziness. They want someone to know it all for them...and just spoon feed them what they want to hear.....the truth, as Jesus presented it, was confronting, as it should be. It has the same effect today."

Do you know the difference between a theologian and a Bible student? If not then you are so far ‘behind the 8 ball’, as to have no real input to any Bible discussion. Theology is not Christianity....it is the study of church doctrine. The only scriptures mentioned are those twisted to fit their adopted doctrines.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CIVILIZING OF THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT.
AND
IT'S THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT INVENTED THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM OF LEARNING...IOW, HIGHER EDUCATION.

And, BTW, there's no ROMAN in the Catholic Church.
Roman is a rite,,,
not a church.

So sorry....you mean that all Catholic Churches recognise each other as Catholic? That’s not what I have been told by other Catholics.

What does a “rite” have to do with being a Christian?

What does being Catholic have to do with being civilized? Seriously...does the history of the Catholic Church support that notion? By what stretch of whose imagination?

Here it is again:
THE CHURCH IS PURE.
MAN IS NOT.

There's enough blame to go around.
We're not in heaven just yet.

Crimes Committed by Jehovah's Witnesses

The AAWA Project Map is a database to intensify public awareness of crimes committed by Jehovah's Witnesses on a worldwide scale.

avoidjw.org

So an anti-JW website is proof enough for you....but what if someone quotes an anti-Catholic website...different story? All I refer to is recorded history. Anyone can find whatever they want on the Internet......it’s the source of a lot of knowledge, but also the devil’s playground.

If you study church history, you'll know how it was in the first century.
You don't need me for that and I'm not up to wasting my time.

As you've stated,,,
we have the internet now...
Learn how early Christianity was.

I did and, and guess what? It doesn’t resemble original Christianity in any way....in fact it is a complete departure...in beliefs, structure and practices....can you get further away than that? The trick was, how did it stay that way for so many centuries, unassailed? Fear and ignorance...something the church was notorious for.

For starters: They believed Jesus is God and thus they believed in the Trinity.
Plenty of writing on what they believed about everything,,,including BAPTISM,,,which you do not even believe is necessary.
Including how worship was done....it included the EUCHARIST.

The Scriptures themselves prove that is not true....there is no trinity in the Bible, only in “the church”.

Who told you that we don’t believe in baptism? Every one of Jehovah’s Witnesses are baptized....just not as infants, who cannot accept the Bible’s teachings for themselves, and for which there was no proxy arrangement....up to the age of accountability, children are placed with their believing parents, whose responsibility it is to teach them about God and his Christ...and their own responsibilities towards both.

As for worship?....the RCC could not be further removed from the first century model....there is no resemblance.
The grand cathedrals, the priesthood decked out in distinctive garb, and who carry titles in a hierarchy, the liturgy, holy water, burning of incense, repetitative prayers, the use of rosary beads and images, Mary as a co-meadiatrix with Jesus and the saints as intercessors....and a long list of other additions, many copied from Judaism, not Christianity.

You seem to have no idea how far from original Christianity, the church has strayed....but you are certainly not alone....

 

[Aunty Jane]

To say nothing of the fact thatvit cost about a year's wage to have a personal bible....only the very wealthy could even afford one.

Oh, the wonders of reality....

Perhaps if “the church” had provided access to the Bible for those who were literate and wanted to read God’s word for themselves, maybe those burned at the stake or tortured in the Inquisition process might have lived to finally see the errors of their church’s teachings exposed.

The reality was, they were told to accept whatever the church fed them with no way to read God’s word for themselves....when Mary was told that she would bear Israel ‘s Messiah, her response was to quote Scripture...and I doubt that the family had their own copies of the scrolls, but obviously she had listened intently when God’s Word was read in the Synagogue.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps if “the church” had provided access to the Bible for those who were literate and wanted to read God’s word for themselves, maybe those burned at the stake or tortured in the Inquisition process might have lived to finally see the errors of their church’s teachings exposed.

The reality was, they were told to accept whatever the church fed them with no way to read God’s word for themselves....when Mary was told that she would bear Israel ‘s Messiah, her response was to quote Scripture...and I doubt that the family had their own copies of the scrolls, but obviously she had listened intently when God’s Word was read in the Synagogue.

If it were not for the Catholic Church....
you'd be speaking arabic today.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So sorry....you mean that all Catholic Churches recognise each other as Catholic? That’s not what I have been told by other Catholics.

Whoever told you that is as wrong as YOU are about most things . . .

There is only ONE Catholic Church. Many renegade sects use the term "Catholic" in their name - and they are anything BUT.

As for worship?....the RCC could not be further removed from the first century model....there is no resemblance.
The grand cathedrals, the priesthood decked out in distinctive garb, and who carry titles in a hierarchy, the liturgy, holy water, burning of incense, repetitative prayers, the use of rosary beads and images, Mary as a co-meadiatrix with Jesus and the saints as intercessors....and a long list of other additions, many copied from Judaism, not Christianity.

You seem to have no idea how far from original Christianity, the church has strayed....but you are certainly not alone....

WRONG.

According to the Church document, the Didache (A.D. 60), written while many of the Apostles were STILL alive – the Church baptized by immersion AND by pouring 3 times over the head while invoking the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The confessed their sins to the Church before partaking in the Holy Eucharist. (Didache [A.D. 60]).

According to FIRST century Bishop, Clement of Rome, they believed in Apostolic Succession (Letter to the Corinthians 44:1 [A.D. 95]) - as well as the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

According to FIRST century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch, a student of the Apostle John – the FIRST century Church believed in the Real Presence - that the consecrated bread and wine actually became the Body and Blood of the risen Jesus Christ (Eucharist). They believed that the Divinity of Christ. congregation was to follow the Bishop – as we would Christ and obey our clergy as we would Apostles. He also wrote that wherever Jesus Christ is – there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

The FIRST century Church believed that without all these things – it cannot be called a “Church” (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 107]).

The Catholic Church of today believes in – and practices ALL of these things.
Now – let’s look at YOUR side . . .

- The Jehovah’s Witness sect was invented in 1879 by a FALSE prophet names Charles Taze Russell.
- You deny the deity of Jesus Christ and by some warped perversion, actually believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
- You have had several FALSE prophecies. Even ONE false prophecy is indicative of a FALSE church.
- You DENY the Clergy

. . . and I’ve only scratched the surface . . .

 

[Aunty Jane]

If it were not for the Catholic Church....
you'd be speaking arabic today.

Oh dear...you knowledge of Scripture is worse than I thought....

If it wasn’t for the Catholic church, millions today would not be participating in a range of practices and holding to a multitude of beliefs that are not even mentioned in Scripture. Christendom would not be the divided mess that it has proven to be since the foretold apostasy took root and overtook the world, very early in Christian history.....as these “weeds” thrive in poor soil and rob the plants of their ability to flourish, so has the counterfeit church tried to choke out Scriptural truth, replacing it with a look alike counterfeit. But it fails on all levels.

All the gods of Ancient Rome were condensed and incorporated into the RCC. The mother goddess that Mary became was modeled after their mother goddesses and given their titles....they retained the statues when God forbade the use of images in worship....and they turned Zeus into Jesus and almost eliminated the one true God whom Jesus himself called “my God” even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

Whatever happens in this world is what God permits...not necessarily what he causes.
He needs no humans in order to carry out his purpose.....it will come to fruition in spite of what humans do under direction from the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Even if we all spoke Arabic, what difference would that make to God, who can carry out his will no matter what humans do. There is no more powerful entity in existence....and his will is all that matters.

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh dear...you knowledge of Scripture is worse than I thought....

If it wasn’t for the Catholic church, millions today would not be participating in a range of practices and holding to a multitude of beliefs that are not even mentioned in Scripture. Christendom would not be the divided mess that it has proven to be since the foretold apostasy took root and overtook the world, very early in Christian history.....as these “weeds” thrive in poor soil and rob the plants of their ability to flourish, so has the counterfeit church tried to choke out Scriptural truth, replacing it with a look alike counterfeit. But it fails on all levels.

All the gods of Ancient Rome were condensed and incorporated into the RCC. The mother goddess that Mary became was modeled after their mother goddesses and given their titles....they retained the statues when God forbade the use of images in worship....and they turned Zeus into Jesus and almost eliminated the one true God whom Jesus himself called “my God” even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)

Whatever happens in this world is what God permits...not necessarily what he causes.
He needs no humans in order to carry out his purpose.....it will come to fruition in spite of what humans do under direction from the devil. (1 John 5:19)

Even if we all spoke Arabic, what difference would that make to God, who can carry out his will no matter what humans do. There is no more powerful entity in existence....and his will is all that matters.

Nothing further to say.
The first sentence of your last PP is rather horrifying.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whoever told you that is as wrong as YOU are about most things . . .

There is only ONE Catholic Church. Many renegade sects use the term "Catholic" in their name - and they are anything BUT.

WRONG.

According to the Church document, the Didache (A.D. 60), written while many of the Apostles were STILL alive – the Church baptized by immersion AND by pouring 3 times over the head while invoking the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The confessed their sins to the Church before partaking in the Holy Eucharist. (Didache [A.D. 60]).

According to FIRST century Bishop, Clement of Rome, they believed in Apostolic Succession (Letter to the Corinthians 44:1 [A.D. 95]) - as well as the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

According to FIRST century Bishop, Ignatius of Antioch, a student of the Apostle John – the FIRST century Church believed in the Real Presence - that the consecrated bread and wine actually became the Body and Blood of the risen Jesus Christ (Eucharist). They believed that the Divinity of Christ. congregation was to follow the Bishop – as we would Christ and obey our clergy as we would Apostles. He also wrote that wherever Jesus Christ is – there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

The FIRST century Church believed that without all these things – it cannot be called a “Church” (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 107]).

The Catholic Church of today believes in – and practices ALL of these things.
Now – let’s look at YOUR side . . .

- The Jehovah’s Witness sect was invented in 1879 by a FALSE prophet names Charles Taze Russell.
- You deny the deity of Jesus Christ and by some warped perversion, actually believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.
- You have had several FALSE prophecies. Even ONE false prophecy is indicative of a FALSE church.
- You DENY the Clergy

. . . and I’ve only scratched the surface . . .

We're it not so sad....
The hypocrisy would be amusing.

I mean of Auntie Jane.