Reason for The Crusades explained

[Matthias]

Sounds like Christianity should be a pacifist organization -
according to some on this thread.

It‘s a little known fact that Jesus and the apostles enlisted in the Roman army. Or was it the navy?

Well, either way, they served Rome by recruiting disciples for the pagan government’s military that persecuted them.

However, we've derailed enough I think.

 

[Matthias]

All will one day be called upon to answer to Jesus.

***

Jesus: “You killed some of my disciples. Why?”

Christian: “It’s okay ... um, ‘okay’ isn’t the word I’m looking for. You ‘commanded’ me to kill your disciples if they lived in a kingdom or nation that was at war with the kingdom or nation I live in. I was just obeying your orders.”

Jesus:

***

Coincidentally, I’m just finishing reading John’s “love” letters for the umpteenth time.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus meant that we are to DO NO HARM to our enemies.
We are to treat even our enemies with love.

These are a couple of effective but not too graphically explicit photographs (from Hiroshima) that I can think of to provide.





* This is “penny ante” level of harmful compared to what man is capable of doing now. *

This isn’t “DO NO HARM”. This is “DO MASSIVE HARM”.

 

[Matthias]

The Bombing of Japanese Catholicism

Nagasaki was the very epicentre of Japanese Catholicism.

onepeterfive.com

More Catholics were killed at Nagasaki than at Hiroshima but Catholics / Christians were killed (by Christians) in both cities.

“Do no harm“ wasn’t written on either of the nuclear weapons.

 

[Matthias]

This thread is about an old Catholic war story (which has become expanded to include Protestants, other wars, and even personal self defense from depraved burglars.) Many here don’t think Catholics are Christian so the fact that tens of thousands of Catholics living in those two Japanese cities were “done harm” (by Catholics and Protestants) may be of little interest to them.

What do Catholics themselves think about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Dropping the Atomic Bomb Was Wrong. Period.

Many US Catholics today approve of President Truman’s decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Here's why it was wrong.

www.catholic.com

 

[Wrangler]

Those who follow the teaching of Jesus aren’t “over spiritualized”.

So, why is it you don’t say yes to

let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:36

 

[Wrangler]

Those who follow the teaching of Jesus aren’t “over spiritualized”.

That’s not I said, is it? Yet, you are not following Jesus if you arent armed, ready to kill.

 

[Matthias]

So, why is it you don’t say yes to

I said no to your interpretation.

 

[Matthias]

That’s not I said, is it? Yet, you are not following Jesus if you arent armed, ready to kill.

Please see my conversation with @GodsGrace.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus meant that we are to DO NO HARM to our enemies.
We are to treat even our enemies with love.

The co-pilot on the Enola Gay …



You’ve inflicted great harm and tremendous suffering on your enemy, Captain Lewis. You’re a national hero.

Exactly what Jesus wants his disciples to do and to be known for?

 

[Matthias]

A speech that “must never be forgotten.” Have you heard / read the speech @GodsGrace?

Blessing the Bombs

Zabelka served as a priest for the airmen who dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Zabelka died in 1992, but his message, in this speech given on the 40th anniversary of the bombings, must never be forgotten.

www.plough.com

 

[Matthias]

I’m certain that you don’t have access to a nuclear weapon, but are you “armed, ready to kill” @GodsGrace?

 

[Chihuahua]

Welcome to the forum.

Ooh-rah, Catholic Church.

Please post something of substance instead of childishness.

 

[Matthias]

Please post something of substance instead of childishness.

Please see my posts.

 

[Chihuahua]

Had I been there, the Catholics would have killed me. For being a Muslim? No. For being a believing Jewish monotheist.

Killed you for what? What location and what conditions? You are just rambling.

 

[Matthias]

Killed you for what? What location and what conditions?

You’re new here, so I’ll give you a pass.

You are just rambling.

No. It’s a long story and you obviously don’t know the details.

What you do know is that I’m not a trinitarian.

 

[Chihuahua]

This thread is specifically about the Crusades, and that Catholic history is being (mis)used to support Christian participation in nations (which are not the kingdom of God) killing their enemies in other nations.

Start here. Christians killing fellow Christians is an absolute abomination.

What is done to a Christian is done to the Messiah, and what is done to the Messiah is done to God.

Repent.

People are actually discussing real history instead of made up stories and anachronism like those poor, persecuted barbarian tribes who were just minding their own business attacking Christians.

 

[Matthias]

People are actually discussing real history instead of made up stories and anachronism like those poor, persecuted barbarian tribes who were just minding their own business attacking Christians.

People are discussing real history and hypothetical situations (application) in this thread. Both are important.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Denial.

Not true....

Passivists owe their lives to those who aren't - and then play word games like above to assert some sort of superiority ... I don't kill animals. I just buy meat at the grocery store.

Christians are not pacifists...they are disciples of Jesus Christ who taught us to “agape” our enemies....”agape love” is one based on principle, not emotion. No matter what an enemy may do to us, we will not retaliate with violent intent. Nothing should ever make us hate our enemies enough to want to kill them. That is what agape does...it defuses anger and hatred, not allowing injustice to dictate our feelings.

Personal self defence is not something we can plan for, but in the moment we can act to save our life, not with the intent to kill an assailant but to stop the attack. We would not carry weapons because that shows intent to commit violence. We can use common sense and not put ourselves in a dangerous environment....and we can defend ourselves in any non-violent way we can, pepper spray or a loud alarm that we can carry to deter, rather than harm.

Comparing others to animals is just poor justification. Dehumanising an enemy is a great way to commit murder with a clear conscience. We have been given dominion over animals, but not over each other.

Human life is sacred to God and only he has the authority to take it.
Israelite history is full of examples where Israel was sanctioned by God to defend their homeland.....because it was God-given. How many today, fighting for their homeland, can say that it is “God given” and not stolen from its original inhabitants with much bloodshed? And reducing the indigenous people to second class citizens in their own country? Is that something to be proud of? Did God give any nation that sanction?

Would God condone the bloody conquest, and then assist in protecting the stolen property?
Have you lost sight of God’s perspective?

If you need the Christian perspective, then Paul’s words should not be ignored or put aside to satisfy an indoctrinated patriotism that overrides Christian principles.

Romans 12:17-21...ESV...
“Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”

All the justification and patriotic spirit in the world cannot contradict that statement.

Vengeance belongs to God...not us. If our nation goes to war...it is none of our business, as we are told by Jesus himself to be “no part” of that world, ruled by the devil. (John 17:15; 1John 5:19)

If the war affects us personally, it is also affecting our fellow Christians on the other side of that conflict, none of whom will take up arms to kill anyone, and therefore will never in a position to answer to God for failing to obey the Christ.

Jesus’ answer to Pilate.....
“...Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?” Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:35-36 ESV)

What do you see in Jesus’ statement there....”“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting”...

No kingdom of this world has anything to do with Christ’s genuine disciples...they IN THE WORLD but are NO PART of its wars and bloodshed...no part of its immorality and greed. If they were, then the Christians would have sanction to fight....but Jesus said they wouldn’t fight....not even to save Jesus from his enemies.

The two swords that Jesus told his apostles to purchase was to fulfill prophesy, not to take on an armed mob....as he told Pilate.....’they would have fought’, and Peter did, but was reprimanded by Jesus for doing so. He was told “return your sword to its place...those who take up the sword will die by the sword”.
Replace the word “sword” with any weapon designed to kill human beings....

Any “Christian” who can justify participation in this world’s conflicts, are not obeying the direct teachings of Jesus Christ found in the writings of his disciples.

Those who quote Scripture selectively to justify their repaying “evil for evil” will find out that their justifications won’t work with the one who is appointed as our judge.

 

[Wrangler]

Not true....

Totally true. the Bible teaches of a military conquering Messiah. Do you deny this?