We can't Earn : What is FREE

[Wrangler]

Not just according to @Behold , it's according to God's word.

@Behold has it right.

Pearl, this is one of the most striking verses to the contrary. Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left

I suppose OSAS crowd want to parse "being saved" from "received knowledge of the truth." Semantic argument doesn't cover the sin that no sacrifice covers. No sacrifice covers this sin, includes the sacrifice of Christ. You don't recognize this as God's word?

 

[Rudometkin]

Yes, there is refuge in the Lord. But there is also work to be done.

Jesus finished the work. John 19:30. And if there was more work to be done, and by you at that, it is God who works in you to will and do of His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

And God promised to finish the work He started in you. Phil 1:6.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus finished the work.

Wrong. He finished HIS work. We still have our work to do.

 

[Rudometkin]

Wrong. He finished HIS work. We still have our work to do.

Ah, so you affirm He is not the one who does the saving. So you mean Salvation is not of the Lord, but of Lord and man. Jonah 2:9 just mentions it's of the Lord alone.

Well, Phil 2:13 still makes it clear it's God who works in you to do of His good pleasure. So, your work is still really His work alone even from that angle.

You can't escape Salvation being of the Lord alone.

 

[Wrangler]

Ah, so you affirm He is not the one who does the saving.

Strawman. You change subject from work to do with being saved. Read this verse carefully. Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

​

Do you see ‘through faith’ in the mechanism of being saved? Faith = Belief + Action (aka work, not ‘works’). Not lip service.

Not too many would brag about the ’works’ they did when given a $100 million dollar check when the only ‘work’ (faith) they did was go to the bank to cash it. How lazy must OSAS believers be?! If you don’t want to do the work of cashing a $100 million dollar check, that not on Jesus.

 

[Rudometkin]

Strawman. You change subject from work to do with being saved. Read this verse carefully. Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith

Ah, well the subject matter of the topic is Salvation, so maybe you're the one with the fallacy of irrelevance

It's okay. What were you referring to when you said work?

Do you see ‘through faith’ in the mechanism of being saved? Faith = Belief + Action (aka work, not ‘works’). Not lip service.

Not too many would brag about the ’works’ they did when given a $100 million dollar check when the only ‘work’ (faith) they did was go to the bank to cash it. How lazy must OSAS believers be?! If you don’t want to do the work of cashing a $100 million dollar check, that not on Jesus.

Faith is a gift. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb 12:2

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Wrangler]

Ah, well the subject matter of the topic is Salvation, so maybe you're the one with the fallacy of irrelevance

Nope! The subject of the thread is a lie - not having to earn what is free.
Proverbs 26:15
Lazy people take food in their hand but don’t even lift it to their mouth.

OSAS want credit for having genuine faith without acting per God’s will.

 

[Grailhunter]

The concept of Christian Grace is multifaceted and has been defined in various ways across different Christian traditions.

• In Western Christianity, grace is often viewed as God's favor and a share in His divine life, emphasizing its spontaneous and unearned nature.
  
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• Eastern Orthodox Christianity interprets grace as the uncreated energies of God, which are essential for the partaking of the divine nature.
  
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• The Catholic Church holds that grace is the power of Christ and the Holy Spirit acting independently of the minister's holiness.
  
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• Calvinism and Arminianism present differing views on grace, with Calvinism emphasizing irresistible grace, and Arminianism focusing on the cooperation of grace with free will.
  
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  These definitions illustrate the complexity and diversity of grace within Christian theology, reflecting its central role in salvation and the relationship between God and humanity.

In Western Christian beliefs, grace is God's favor, and a "share in the divine life of God".[1] It is a spontaneous gift from God – "generous, free and totally unexpected and undeserved"[2] – that cannot be earned.[3] In the Eastern Orthodox Church, grace is the uncreated energies of God. Among Eastern Christians generally, grace is considered to be the partaking of the divine nature described in 2 Peter 1:4[4] and grace is the working of God himself, not a created substance of any kind that can be treated like a commodity.[5][6]

As an attribute of God, grace manifests most in the salvation of sinners, and Western Christianity holds that the initiative in the relationship of grace between God and an individual is always on the side of God.

The question of the means of grace has been called "the watershed that divides Catholicism from Protestantism, Calvinism from Arminianism, modern theological liberalism from theological conservatism."[7] The Catholic Church holds that it is because of the action of Christ and the Holy Spirit in transforming into the divine life what is subjected to God's power that "the sacraments confer the grace they signify": "the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through [each sacrament], independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them."[8][9]

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants agree that grace is a gift from God, as in Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God." Lutherans hold that the means of grace are "the gospel in Word and sacraments."[10][11] That the sacraments are means of grace is also the teaching of John Wesley,[12] who described the Eucharist as "the grand channel whereby the grace of his Spirit was conveyed to the souls of all the children of God".[13]

Calvinists emphasize "the utter helplessness of people apart from grace." But God reaches out with "first grace" or "prevenient grace". The Calvinist doctrine known as irresistible grace states that, since all persons are by nature spiritually dead, no one desires to accept this grace until God spiritually enlivens them by means of regeneration. God regenerates only individuals whom he has predestined to salvation. Arminians understand the grace of God as cooperating with one's free will in order to bring an individual to salvation. According to Evangelical theologian Charles C. Ryrie, modern liberal theology "gives an exaggerated place to the abilities of people to decide their own fate and to effect their own salvation entirely apart from God's grace."[7]

 

[Wrangler]

What were you referring to when you said work?

Matthew 12:50
Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!”

Doing = Action = Work.

This is different from ‘works’ as that loaded word is used in Scripture. OSAS folks suppose you are saving yourself as a man drowning in rough seas for grabbing hold of a life preserver (faith) thrown to you by Ensign Jesus at the command of the captain of the ship, YHWH. That’s how sinful you are in laziness, in doctrinally refusing to do the work that is our burden to do.

 

[Wrangler]

Faith is a gift. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. Heb 12:2

Yes, our faith, not Jesus’s faith. It means our action in between Author and finisher.

 

[Justified]

Did not say I was saving myself.....
Salvation is through Yeshua. But you must believe in Him to be saved. If you do not believe in Him....first.....you cannot be saved. We make the first move. The belief that we are saved just on the merit that Yeshua died on the cross for us is universalism and that is a false belief.

How do spiritually dead people choose to believe in him first?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Does this not show that justification is all of God? I don't see how those who are dead are able to make any decision to believe apart from a work of God on their heart first.

Does this not also show that we are justified solely on the work and merit of Christ, which is to be received by faith, refuting universalism?

 

[Grailhunter]

How do spiritually dead people choose to believe in him first?

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Does this not show that justification is all of God? I don't see how those who are dead are able to make any decision to believe apart from a work of God on their heart first.

Does this not also show that we are justified solely on the work and merit of Christ, which is to be received by faith, refuting universalism?

But if we do not have free will to choose then faith is of no merit....we are forced to believe. Back to Calvinism.
We make the choice to believe....the choice to repent .... the choice to be baptized....the choice to participate in the Bread and Wine Ritual....the choice to live a moral life.

 

[Rudometkin]

But if we do not have free will to choose then faith is of no merit....we are forced to believe. Back to Calvinism.
We make the choice to believe....the choice to repent .... the choice to be baptized....the choice to participate in the Bread and Wine Ritual....the choice to live a moral life.

Faith is of merit precisely because it comes from God. Just like life. Our lives are of merit precisely because it comes from God. Without coming from God, it all would be nothing. So you are effectively saying God does not have the power to create faith.

Also, Jesus came here and didn't even do His own will, but the will of the Father. John 6:38. He wasn't saying, "My mission is not of my own free will. I am forced to do this. Therefore, my mission is of no merit." But that appears to be the consequence of your logic.

 

[Wrangler]

Faith is of merit precisely because it comes from God.

What a fool! It’s not God‘s gift but how we choose to use it that determines our destiny. You call him Lord, Lord but he never knew you BECAUSE your actions went against God’s will.

 

[Grailhunter]

Faith is of merit precisely because it comes from God. Just like life. Our lives are of merit precisely because it comes from God. Without coming from God, it all would be nothing. So you are effectively saying God does not have the power to create faith.

Also, Jesus came here and didn't even do His own will, but the will of the Father. John 6:38. He wasn't saying, "My mission is not of my own free will. I am forced to do this. Therefore, my mission is of no merit." But that appears to be the consequence of your logic.

Still waiting for all those scriptures that indicate you can live a sinful life and still go to Heaven.
OSAS is not biblical, and it does not even make any sense unless your god is Satan.

 

[Justified]

But if we do not have free will to choose then faith is of no merit....we are forced to believe. Back to Calvinism.
We make the choice to believe....the choice to repent .... the choice to be baptized....the choice to participate in the Bread and Wine Ritual....the choice to live a moral life.

Please explain then how spirituality dead people are able to choose to believe and why they would do so, when they love darkness rather than light:

Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.


This is supported by Paul, who says that humans purposely suppress the truth by their unrighteousness:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.


And how are they to see the light when Satan has blinded their minds?

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Everything points to unbelievers being both unwilling and unable to choose to believe. That means God must first do some work upon their hearts prior to belief.

 

[Grailhunter]

Please explain then how spirituality dead people are able to choose to believe and why they would do so, when they love darkness rather than light:

Mostly the Gospel message and hope. Yeshua method of teaching was casting seeds and what happened with those seeds were up to people and God. There are a lot of testimonials out there why people choose to believe. Although I do not believe in Calvinism as a whole nor forced faith, I do believe that God-the Holy Spirit will work with people. Forced faith is not faith at all.

 

[Shalomhalom]

Hello.

I believe both sides here are wrong, but both have truth in them.

Works are necessary, but they are not meritorious. Thats the solution.

So, are we commanded to do good works? Surely we are, as the Scriptures cited clearly show. According to Ephesians, we are also said to be saved unto good works.

But does that mean we are justified by these works? No, we are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. But the idea is, we are justified by faith alone, but that very faith never comes alone. A person who has true faith will also, together with that faith, have good works.

The two positions taken in this thread are these:

Faith + Works -> Justification
Faith -> Justification - Works

The first is a form of legalism, which Paul denies, since we are said to be justified apart from the works of the law.
The second is a form of antinomianism, which Paul also denies, because we can no longer live in sin since we are dead to sin.

So the solution is this:

Faith -> Justification + Works

If we have faith, we are truly justified based solely on that faith. But that justified estate of ours will also definitely produce good works, which nevertheless play no part in our justification. That is the position of the classical Protestant Reformers, set down in their creeds. I believe this beautifully brings these seemingly contradictory things (faith & works) together.

I hope that helps!

 

[Wrangler]

Works are necessary, but they are not meritorious.

Jeremiah 25:14
I will repay them according to their deeds and the work of their hands.

I believe the dividing lines is "works" is a derogatory term that people apply to earning their own salvation. This is different from the responsibility we have being saved to "work."

The question of "earning" something has been castigated to an extreme. In Proverbs 26:15
Lazy people take food in their hand but don’t even lift it to their mouth.

The lazy might complain of the work they have to do in lifting it to their mouth.