the redemption was accomplished by Christ apart from us and our works
justification is a gratuitous gift apart from our works including faith
sanctification and perseverance require grace and works
thks
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justification is a gratuitous gift apart from our works including faith
sanctification and perseverance require grace and works
thks
eph chapter 2 refers to the redemption accomplished by Christ
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
yes a state of grace not salvation!
Union with God & His saints in Christ by the grace of justification by baptism with the infused supernatural virtues of faith, hope, & charity, sanctifying grace and the Holy Spirit.
Jn 3:16 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!
It is to eternal salvation; they are one and the same, as I have shown.
So, we do nothing whatsoever to merit God’s grace in the first place, when we are dead spiritually because of sin, but then must do good works to make sure we stay in God’s grace or we lose it? Paul refutes such an idea:
Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
So you think Jesus was wrong then. Good to know. I prefer to believe what Jesus said and that the righteous will “go away . . . into eternal life,” which is to say, eternal salvation:
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mrk 10:30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
Jhn 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
And Paul:
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
Through the righteousness of Christ:
2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (ESV)
Good deeds are evidence of having been justified:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)
Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (ESV)
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)
Paul is crystal clear as to how a believer is justified/saved/sealed/made righteous
++
The Gospel :-
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++++++++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
I was responding to your comment :- "Good deeds are evidence of having been justified:"
My thought was :-
How many deeds are required and where does Paul teach we need to provide evidence of being justified and to who so I listed the Gospel that was taught to Paul by Christ as to how a believer is justified, saved, sealed and made righteous.
Do you agree with Paul ?
+++
The Gospel :-
Gal 1:11-12
11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Eph 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
++++++++++++
The PERFORMANCE conditions :-
Titus 3:
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Gal 2:
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Rom 3:
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:
1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Do you mean that we are justified, sanctified and glorified by our own efforts?
Yes the result of Justification but justification is not eternal salvation!
we must participate in perseverance until death!
Union with God & His saints in Christ by the grace of justification by baptism with the infused supernatural virtues of faith, hope, & charity, sanctifying grace and the Holy Spirit.
Jn 3:16 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!
((endure to the end shall be saved))
mk 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
mt 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
mt 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
heb 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
heb 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
rev 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
You have a Paul idolatry. You need to read stuff in the bible besides Paul.
Asking to put a number on good deeds misses the point entirely. If God asks you to jump, you don't ask how high or how far, you just do it.
Does not Jesus teach that we are to judge the fruit of those who claim to be prophets?
Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. (ESV)
That's just one reason why works as evidence of salvation matters. Another reason is:
Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (ESV)
Good works, or the lack thereof, speak against us at the judgement--they are evidence that one is saved, or not.
Asking "where does Paul teach we need to provide evidence of being justified," misses the point as well. It isn't a matter of needing to provide evidence, it's a matter of noticing our own works and what they are evidence of in our own lives. Here are Paul's reasons for the evidence of works:
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. (ESV)
That agrees with Jesus's words. But, Paul clearly teaches that justification is by faith apart from works, so he is not saying here that salvation is by our works; he is saying our works show to whom or what our heart belongs.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (ESV)
In addition to examining one's desires and motives, one of the easiest ways to examine oneself is to look at one's works and what they show--do one's actions truly line up with one's beliefs, and do they line up with how Scripture says believers are supposed to act?
Of course I agree with Paul. That should be very clear from what I have posted, as none of that goes against anything I have posted and I have posted several of those passages myself. But, be careful when posting such passages, as you're missing context.
You quoted Eph. 2:8-9 but not verse 10:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)
You quoted Titus 3:5 but not verse 8:
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)
And then there is what John says:
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, (ESV)
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)
I have already shown that it is. Why do you continue to ignore the passage I provided and just want to pit Scripture against Scripture?
Those are all great verses that I agree with, so I'm not sure why you keep posting them.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Morning,
You may not believe this, kinda complicated.....and it is a lot to take in.
The elements and stages of Salvation....
Propitiation, Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, Sanctification, Glorification.
Grace makes Reconciliation with God the Father possible.
The definition of Grace varies between denominations.
Some confuse Grace with the free and unmerited favor of Yeshua. But that is love not Grace. The free and unmerited love of Yeshua, Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit. Yahweh so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....To be loved by the Trinity. That is a wonderful thing.
And Grace is not defined by Webster.....
And Grace is complicated and to understand it means you have to look at it from Heaven's perspective. Grace is an event not a divine loving emotion. When the veil ripped in two in the Temple that was caused by Grace. When the Holy of Holies was no longer necessary, that was made possible by Grace. Grace erased the sins of Adam and Eve and we were reconciled with Yahweh.
But the New Covenant did not change Yahweh.....He still has zero tolerance of sin. It is not like He became comfortable with sin. To be reconciled with him he cannot know of or sins.
In my Father's house are many mansions.....Yeshua opened the gates to Heaven to humanity for the first time, and Grace made that possible.
Yeshua's blood covers our sins and this process is called Grace. Functionally it is a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and sinful nature.
To make this possible Yahweh had to give all authority over us to Yeshua. Judgment of us was handed over of Yeshua. Our sins now are between us and Yeshua and if we confess our sins to Him, He forgives us. All this as we work out our Salvation. And in the end Yeshua will raise us and we appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yes Bible as a whole and perspective of sequence is important.
For example, during Yeshua's ministry they were still under the 613 Mosaic Laws and a lot times Yeshua was talking to Jews about the Mosaic Laws.
And on the other hand, the Apostle Paul wrote or influenced 2/3rd of the New Testament.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
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