We can't Earn : What is FREE

[Wrangler]

If believers are given eternal life, then they have eternal salvation; they are one and the same.

Not necessarily. Hebrews 10:26, there is no sacrifice that covers this sin, suggests a lose of both. Otherwise, what is the purpose of the verse?

Beyond that, salvation is contextual. I was saved from being in a life raft only to be hit by a car. The act of being saved from one life ending events doesn’t make it impossible for one’s life to be lost later in a different context.

We know this is true in the soulful world and Hebrews 10:26 - among many other verses - suggest it is that way in the spiritual world.

 

[Justified]

Post 116

That doesn't answer my question. Your statement--"None of the is Grace"--is incoherent; it doesn't make sense and I'm asking what you mean by it. You posted that in response to my statement, "All of it--justification, sanctification, glorification--is by the grace of God."

 

[Behold]

You are right, the fruit of salvation is a changed life.

The fruit of Salvaiton is a changed Heart., as Salvaiton is a work of God's Grace that starts with and in the heart.

Whereas Anyone can FAKE being a "christian"... all you need to do is get water baptized, get a bible, and pretend you are a "christian".

And in fact Paul teaches us in 2 Corin 11 that these fakirs (religious pretenders) are Legion.

One of the ways you can spot ome of these fakirs is simple to ask them....."why does the Blood of Jesus, that is the New Covenant and the Blood atonement, always keep you saved".

Read their answer carefully, and you'll find out who ISN'T and hasn't actually yet trusted in CHRIST for Salvation.

 

[Grailhunter]

That doesn't answer my question. Your statement--"None of the is Grace"--is incoherent; it doesn't make sense and I'm asking what you mean by it. You posted that in response to my statement, "All of it--justification, sanctification, glorification--is by the grace of God."

I was explaining what Grace is....
Propitiation, Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, Sanctification, Glorification and Grace are Christian theological terms. It can be confusing because the English word and the Greek word for Grace are not theological terms.

The New Testament was written in Greek and some Aramaic. These are strictly Pagan languages. The Greeks had no idea what Christianity was and the language did not have Christian terms because it was Pagan.

So the writers of the New Testament would take Greek words and change the definitions to include Christian theological meanings.....Words like sin, Hades, and Grace.

So Grace is not Propitiation, Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, Sanctification, Glorification, but it is part of what made all of it possible.

 

[faithhopecharity]

I have already shown that it is. Why do you continue to ignore the passage I provided and just want to pit Scripture against Scripture?


Those are all great verses that I agree with, so I'm not sure why you keep posting them.

do you believe mk 10:30 eternal life promised in "the world to come eternal life"!

how do respond to mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13 rev 2:10?

thks

 

[faithhopecharity]

I have already shown that it is. Why do you continue to ignore the passage I provided and just want to pit Scripture against Scripture?


Those are all great verses that I agree with, so I'm not sure why you keep posting them.

if your really saved the you don't need to follow or obey Jesus!

or these

Jn 3:16 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

just believe the tv preachers who say quote "you are saved, there is nothing more you need to do" and some say " nothing you can do either positively or negatively to effect your salvation"!

not even sin!

thks

 

[Behold]

The New Testament was written in Greek and some Aramaic. These are strictly Pagan languages.

There is no difference between a Greek Pagan speaking Greek, and an American Pagan speaking English., as its not the language that is "pagan"....its the person, so, if the Pagan is speaking German or "talking in tongues" the language" is not the issue, is not the Paganism.

So Grace is not Propitiation, Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, Sanctification, Glorification, but it is part of what made all of it possible.

Actually its God's Son's Blood who "makes Grace possible".

You should start there.... and learn that @Grailhunter

 

[Grailhunter]

There is no difference between a Greek Pagan speaking Greek, and an American Pagan speaking English., as its not the language that is "pagan"....its the person, so, if the Pagan is speaking German or "talking in tongues" the language" is not the issue, is not the Paganism.

The difference is time periods.....one of many mistakes people make in understanding.

 

[Grailhunter]

There is no difference between a Greek Pagan speaking Greek, and an American Pagan speaking English., as its not the language that is "pagan"....its the person, so, if the Pagan is speaking German or "talking in tongues" the language" is not the issue, is not the Paganism.





Actually its God's Son's Blood who "makes Grace possible".

You should start there.... and learn that @Grailhunter

I think I said that. Can you read?

 

[Justified]

do you believe mk 10:30 eternal life promised in "the world to come eternal life"!

Of course I believe it. It is also another verse that proves your claim, "eternal life is not eternal salvation," to be incorrect. As I posted previously:

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (ESV)

Do you disagree with Jesus? Was he wrong to use "eternal life" when he clearly means "eternal salvation"?

how do respond to mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13 rev 2:10?

What about them? I fully agree with those. Why do you want me to respond to those verses when you're not willing to respond to the ones I've posted?

As I stated previously:

Salvation is spoken of in Scripture using three terms: justification (a one-time, past event); sanctification (both a one-time, past event and ongoing process); glorification (at death or after the final judgement). Justification leads to sanctification, which leads to glorification. (HERE)

Justification as it relates to the one-time event, the first step of salvation, is found in definitions 1 and 3. Once a person is justified, they are saved--they have eternal life and eternal salvation. (HERE)

if your really saved the you don't need to follow or obey Jesus!

No. A person who is truly saved follows and obeys Jesus because he commanded they do it and because they love him.

just believe the tv preachers who say quote "you are saved, there is nothing more you need to do" and some say " nothing you can do either positively or negatively to effect your salvation"!

not even sin!

I have never heard anyone preach that, although it sounds likely, given the amount of false doctrine and heresy that has been accepted for decades in American Evangelicalism.

 

[David Lamb]

Morning,
You may not believe this, kinda complicated.....and it is a lot to take in.
The elements and stages of Salvation....
Propitiation, Redemption, Justification, Reconciliation, Sanctification, Glorification.
Grace makes Reconciliation with God the Father possible.
The definition of Grace varies between denominations.
Some confuse Grace with the free and unmerited favor of Yeshua. But that is love not Grace. The free and unmerited love of Yeshua, Yahweh, and the Holy Spirit. Yahweh so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son.....To be loved by the Trinity. That is a wonderful thing.
And Grace is not defined by Webster.....
And Grace is complicated and to understand it means you have to look at it from Heaven's perspective. Grace is an event not a divine loving emotion. When the veil ripped in two in the Temple that was caused by Grace. When the Holy of Holies was no longer necessary, that was made possible by Grace. Grace erased the sins of Adam and Eve and we were reconciled with Yahweh.
But the New Covenant did not change Yahweh.....He still has zero tolerance of sin. It is not like He became comfortable with sin. To be reconciled with him he cannot know of or sins.
In my Father's house are many mansions.....Yeshua opened the gates to Heaven to humanity for the first time, and Grace made that possible.
Yeshua's blood covers our sins and this process is called Grace. Functionally it is a spiritual white cloak that covers our sins and sinful nature.
To make this possible Yahweh had to give all authority over us to Yeshua. Judgment of us was handed over of Yeshua. Our sins now are between us and Yeshua and if we confess our sins to Him, He forgives us. All this as we work out our Salvation. And in the end Yeshua will raise us and we appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

I would say that it isn't the process that is called grace. God's grace is indeed His undeserved favour, and that is not a process. Rather, it is an attribute of God:

(Psa 116:5) Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.

 

[Grailhunter]

I would say that it isn't the process that is called grace. God's grace is indeed His undeserved favour, and that is not a process. Rather, it is an attribute of God:

(Psa 116:5) Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.

There is no doubt that God loves us. But that is not Grace. I love my kids, but that is not Grace.
I am saying it is not an emotion, that it is an event. The tearing in two of the veil in the Temple was more than symbolism. We were no longer separated from Yahweh, we were reconciled. That was caused by the event of Grace. The tearing in two of the veil in the Temple did not save the world, but it reconciled mankind to Yahweh.
But like I said denominations define Grace differently. So if people want to debate, it is a legitimate debate.
And I know the scriptures use the word Grace in different ways and some of them are emotion....love.... favor.
But I talking about Grace as an event, as an action.....that made it possible for us to be reconciled to Yahweh in a way that the Holy of Holies was not needed anymore. That made it possible to be considered in the family of God and eligible for Heaven.
The whole of Salvation hinges on us being reconciled.
Grace in the scriptures....

What Does the Bible Say About Grace?

Bible verses about Grace

www.openbible.info

 

[shepherdsword]

I would say that it isn't the process that is called grace. God's grace is indeed His undeserved favour, and that is not a process. Rather, it is an attribute of God:

(Psa 116:5) Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.

There is no doubt that God loves us. But that is not Grace. I love my kids, but that is not Grace.
I am saying it is not an emotion, that it is an event. The tearing in two of the vail in the Temple was more than symbolism. We were no longer separated from Yahweh, we were reconciled. That was caused by the event of Grace.
But like I said denominations define Grace differently. So if people want to debate, it is a legitimate debate.
And I know the scriptures use the word Grace in different ways and some of them are emotion....love.... favor.
But I talking about Grace as an event, as an action.....that made it possible for us to be reconciled to Yahweh in a way that the Holy of Holies was not needed anymore. That made it possible to be considered in the family of God and eligible for Heaven.
The whole of Salvation hinges on us being reconciled.
Grace in the scriptures....

What Does the Bible Say About Grace?

Bible verses about Grace

www.openbible.info

I would classify grace as "God's enabling power". What we could not do under the old covenant, God has enabled us to do under the new.

 

[David Lamb]

I would classify grace as "God's enabling power". What we could not do under the old covenant, God has enabled us to do under the new.

I don't think that can be entirely tru, because God's grace is spoken of in the Old Testament as well as the New. For example:

(Gen 6:8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

(Ezr 9:8) And now for a little while grace has been shown from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a peg in His holy place, that our God may enlighten our eyes and give us a measure of revival in our bondage.

(2Ki 13:23) But the LORD was gracious to them, had compassion on them, and regarded them, because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not yet destroy them or cast them from His presence.

(Neh 9:31) Nevertheless in Your great mercy You did not utterly consume them nor forsake them; For You are God, gracious and merciful.

 

[Grailhunter]

I would classify grace as "God's enabling power". What we could not do under the old covenant, God has enabled us to do under the new.

Like I said there are a lot of definitions for Grace. I see a big difference between grace and Grace. Yahweh considered the Israelites His children and His people. That is love and favor. But Grace in the New Testament is different. Yeshua provided for the opportunity for Salvation but without Grace there would be no opportunity.

 

[shepherdsword]

I don't think that can be entirely tru, because God's grace is spoken of in the Old Testament as well as the New. For example:

(Gen 6:8) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

(Ezr 9:8) And now for a little while grace has been shown from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a peg in His holy place, that our God may enlighten our eyes and give us a measure of revival in our bondage.

(2Ki 13:23) But the LORD was gracious to them, had compassion on them, and regarded them, because of His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and would not yet destroy them or cast them from His presence.

(Neh 9:31) Nevertheless in Your great mercy You did not utterly consume them nor forsake them; For You are God, gracious and merciful.

As I mentioned, I was referring as to grace under the new covenant.

1 Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[David Lamb]

As I mentioned, I was referring as to grace under the new covenant.

1 Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you as saying that God's grace was a different thing under the Old Covenant than it is under the New. I apologise.

 

[Behold]

I think I said that. Can you read?

good dodge., as its always the way of the carnal to pretend that "oh that is what i meant" "that is what i said", when they are shown that they are theologically backwards, such is your case. @Grailhunter

So, try again, so that i cant point out that you dont know what you are talking about, and this way that the members here can avoid you, if they are really paying attention @Grailhunter

 

[Grailhunter]

good dodge., as its always the way of the carnal to pretend that "oh that is what i meant" "that is what i said", when they are shown that they are theologically backwards, such is your case. @Grailhunter

So, try again, so that i cant point out that you dont know what you are talking about, and this way that the members here can avoid you, if they are really paying attention @Grailhunter

Is there a question here?

 

[Behold]

Is there a question here?

You're on my Thread...so, you get to ask the questions. @Grailhunter .