Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[David in NJ]

All truth is important.
The ones that offend you , your remedy is omission.

I made it my business to know the bible and your pathetic doctrine of no verses.

That's the difference and why you can not debate me honestly.

Calling JESUS words "pathetic" is a great sin

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I Strongly Disagree With Your Preterist Claim Of The "Great Tribulation" Taking Place In The 1st Century

You will closely note that the "Great Tribulation" takes place in verse 21 seen below, you will closely note that "Immediately" after this "Great Tribulation" the literal, visible, second coming takes place, any reasonable person knows that this second coming is "Future" unfulfilled, it's that simple

Conclusion: Reformed eschatology many claims are wrong, as it bends and twists the very clear scripture trying to establish 1st century fulfillment "Wrong"

Reformed Preterist False Claims:
1.) Jesus isn't returning literally and visibly as shown in verse 30 below, it all equates to a judgement of the Jews/Israel by Jesus from his throne in heaven

2.) The "Great Tribulation" has been taking place for 2,000 years and it will end at a future second coming

Matthew 24:21 & 29-31KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He is not a preterist. Preterists don't claim that the great tribulation has been taking place for the past 2,000 years as he is claiming. They claim that it took place in 70 AD and it was just before Jesus came and the elect were gathered. Unlike preterists, he believes that Matthew 24:30 is talking about a literal and visible return of Jesus. Why are you so ignorant about what preterists believe? It seems like you think anyone who is not a hyper-futurist like you is a preterist.

 

[rwb]

I Strongly Disagree With Your Preterist Claim Of The "Great Tribulation" Taking Place In The 1st Century

Sorry Truth7t7 I stopped reading your reply after reading the above. Since I am not Preterist (partial or full) and in fact fight against this unbiblical doctrine. If you desire a discussion from what I posted, "I would argue that "great tribulation" began when the Lord came to earth a man, for that is when He ushered in the Kingdom of God that can only be known and entered when one has been born again of the Spirit." The Lord came to earth a man with the Kingdom of God long before physical wrath of God was poured out on apostate Israel in 70 AD.

 

[Truth7t7]

He is not a preterist. Preterists don't claim that the great tribulation has been taking place for the past 2,000 years as he is claiming. They claim that it took place in 70 AD and it was just before Jesus came and the elect were gathered. Unlike preterists, he believes that Matthew 24:30 is talking about a literal and visible return of Jesus. Why are you so ignorant about what preterists believe? It seems like you think anyone who is not a hyper-futurist like you is a preterist.

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century is 100% a false preterist teaching, Daniel's AOD as seen in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See The Abomination Of Desolation) this "Starts" the Great Tribulation", and it didn't take place during the Lord's time on the earth or anytime after

You can't have a "Great Tribulation" taking place in the 1st century during the Lord's time on earth, with the elect running away from Judea to the mountains as seen in Matthew 24:16 for 2,000 years and waiting, a time so bad it won't be seen again on earth (No Nor Ever Shall Be) for 2,000 years and waiting, (LAUGHABLE)

The words as seen in Matthew 24:22 below (Except Those Day's Should Be Shortned, There Should Be No Flesh Saved: ) this doesn't represent a 2,000 year ongoing tribulation and waiting for a future second coming, who you trying to bamboozle, "Not Me"!

You will closely note that the "Great Tribulation" takes place in verse 21 seen below, you will closely note that "Immediately" after this "Great Tribulation" the "Future", literal, visible, second coming takes place, any reasonable person knows that this second coming is "Future" unfulfilled, it's that simple

Conclusion: Reformed preterist eschatology's many claims are wrong, as it bends and twists the very clear scripture trying to establish 1st century fulfillment "Wrong"!

A Few Examples Of Reformed Preterist Eschatology's False Claims:

1.) Jesus isn't returning literally and visibly as shown in verse 30 below, it all equates to a judgement of the Jews/Israel by Jesus from his throne in heaven, using Roman Armies in 70AD Jerusalem's destruction as his agents for judgement

2.) The "Great Tribulation" has been taking place for 2,000 years and it will end at a future second coming of Jesus

Matthew 24:15-22KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sorry Truth7t7 I stopped reading your reply after reading the above. Since I am not Preterist (partial or full) and in fact fight against this unbiblical doctrine. If you desire a discussion from what I posted, "I would argue that "great tribulation" began when the Lord came to earth a man, for that is when He ushered in the Kingdom of God that can only be known and entered when one has been born again of the Spirit." The Lord came to earth a man with the Kingdom of God long before physical wrath of God was poured out on apostate Israel in 70 AD.

Please Respond To Posr #564 Above

 

[rwb]

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century is 100% a false preterist teaching, Daniel's AOD as seen in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See The Abomination Of Desolation) "Starts" the Great Tribulation", and it didn't take place during the Lord's time on the earth or anytime after

Here you simply prove that you don't know what abomination of desolation means. Since that is the starting point for great tribulation you cannot understand great tribulation without knowing what Christ is referring to when He speaks of things His disciples shall have to endure as they/we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

When you can give a biblical defense to prove, and not simply your unbiblical opinions as you have above, then perhaps we can discuss what the Bible tells us abomination of desolation that was the beginning of great tribulation for the disciples actually is???

 

[Truth7t7]

He is not a preterist. Preterists don't claim that the great tribulation has been taking place for the past 2,000 years as he is claiming. They claim that it took place in 70 AD and it was just before Jesus came and the elect were gathered. Unlike preterists, he believes that Matthew 24:30 is talking about a literal and visible return of Jesus. Why are you so ignorant about what preterists believe? It seems like you think anyone who is not a hyper-futurist like you is a preterist.

Yes claiming that the "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 began during the Lord's time on earth is 100% preterist, as it claims the "Beginning" has been fulfilled when it hasn't

 

[Truth7t7]

Here you simply prove that you don't know what abomination of desolation means. Since that is the starting point for great tribulation you cannot understand great tribulation without knowing what Christ is referring to when He speaks of things His disciples shall have to endure as they/we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

When you can give a biblical defense to prove, and not simply your unbiblical opinions as you have above, then perhaps we can discuss what the Bible tells us abomination of desolation that was the beginning of great tribulation for the disciples actually is???

Sorry but the world hasn't been experiencing the elect fleeing Judea/Jerusalem to the mountains for 2,000 years and waiting

The world nor Judea/Jerusalem has seen or experienced a time of trouble that will never be seen again in earth's history, "No Nor Ever Shall Be" a time to be shortened or "No Flesh Should Be Saved"

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century when the Lord was upon this earth is 100% a false preterist teaching, Daniel's AOD as seen in Matthew 24:15 (When Ye Therefore Shall See The Abomination Of Desolation) this "Starts" the Great Tribulation", and it didn't take place during the Lord's time on the earth or anytime after

You can't have a "Great Tribulation" taking place in the 1st century during the Lord's time on earth, with the elect running away from Judea to the mountains as seen in Matthew 24:16 for 2,000 years and waiting, a time so bad it won't be seen again on earth (No Nor Ever Shall Be) for 2,000 years and waiting, (LAUGHABLE)

The words as seen in Matthew 24:22 below (Except Those Day's Should Be Shortned, There Should Be No Flesh Saved: ) this doesn't represent a 2,000 year ongoing tribulation and waiting for a future second coming, who you trying to bamboozle, "Not Me"!

You will closely note that the "Great Tribulation" takes place in verse 21 seen below, you will closely note that "Immediately" after this "Great Tribulation" the "Future", literal, visible, second coming takes place, any reasonable person knows that this second coming is "Future" unfulfilled, it's that simple

Conclusion: Reformed preterist eschatology's many claims are wrong, as it bends and twists the very clear scripture trying to establish 1st century fulfillment "Wrong"!

A Few Examples Of Reformed Preterist Eschatology's False Claims:

1.) Jesus isn't returning literally and visibly as shown in verse 30 below, it all equates to a judgement of the Jews/Israel by Jesus from his throne in heaven, using Roman Armies in 70AD Jerusalem's destruction as his agents for judgement

2.) The "Great Tribulation" has been taking place for 2,000 years and it will end at a future second coming of Jesus

Matthew 24:15-22KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here you simply prove that you don't know what abomination of desolation means. Since that is the starting point for great tribulation you cannot understand great tribulation without knowing what Christ is referring to when He speaks of things His disciples shall have to endure as they/we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world.

When you can give a biblical defense to prove, and not simply your unbiblical opinions as you have above, then perhaps we can discuss what the Bible tells us abomination of desolation that was the beginning of great tribulation for the disciples actually is???

Daniel is "Very Specific" on the abomination of desolation, overspending of abominations he shall make it desolate

Overspending abominations has absolutely nothing to do with preaching the gospel to the nations or persecutions as you suggest

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes believing and teaching that the "Great Tribulation" began in the 1st century is 100% a false preterist teaching,

You are not very bright. That's as nice as I can say it. I can tell you something 1,000 times and you still don't get it. You even posted a graphic in response to me once showing what preterists believe and none of it said anything about them believing that the great tribulation began in the 1st century and has lasted for 2,000 years so far. No, preterists believe that the great tribulation began and ended in 70 AD and that Jesus came after it ended in 70 AD and that the elect were gathered at that time in 70 AD and that "this generation" passed away in 70 AD. Neither he nor I believe all those things. Preterists are those who believe all of those things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes claiming that the "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 began during the Lord's time on earth is 100% preterist, as it claims the "Beginning" has been fulfilled when it hasn't

You believe that the prophecies regarding the first coming of Jesus were interpreted in the past and that is 100% preterist. So, we're all preterists according to the way you define preterism, which is not the way anyone else defines preterism.

 

[David in NJ]

the great tribulation began and ended in 70 AD and that Jesus came after it ended in 70 AD and that the elect were gathered at that time in 70 AD and that "this generation" passed away in 70 AD. Neither he nor I believe all those things. Preterists are those who believe all of those things.

i have joy that you have not fallen prey to the above = it is a serious false doctrine that has been spreading

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

i have joy that you have not fallen prey to the above = it is a serious false doctrine that has been spreading

I have never taken it seriously for even a second. Jesus clearly did not come in any way, shape or form and the elect were not gathered by the angels in any way, shape or form in 70 AD.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes claiming that the "Great Tribulation" seen in Matthew 24:21 began during the Lord's time on earth is 100% preterist, as it claims the "Beginning" has been fulfilled when it hasn't

Please keep in mind that "beginning" does not mean consumation.

Sin began in the Garden from the Serpent to Eve to Adam = this was the BEGINNING of TRIBULATION upon the world

Sin is Tribulation
Sin always causes Tribulation

Sin/Tribulation began in Genesis and increased to the point where God had to Destroy every living thing save Noah/8 souls.

Likewise, Tribulation escalated after JESUS Rose from the Dead and Ascended and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!
16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

JESUS spoke of this in Matthew ch24 and HE Says that the last Sin that brings the world into Great Tribulation is the AoD of Daniel.

The AoD of Daniel is defined in Revelation which culminates with the Mark of the Beast = Revelation 14:9-13

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

 

[PinSeeker]

You normally change your mind every time I present an airtight argument to you... but not this time. Somehow.

LOL! Once, in all the... "conversations" we've had, which are many. And as I said then, it was not due to what you had said, the reasoning that you gave. And surely you know that, and so you know the accusation you make here is false, which means, necessarily, that this is an outright lie. Wow.

PinSeeker: ...a unique, once-for-all event in salvation history that inaugurated the New Covenant church...

I would agree with that...

Great!

...but that does not mean the baptism of the Holy Spirit was something different then than it is still today. There is no basis for coming to that conclusion.

That was not my conclusion at all. But depending on the context, baptism symbolizes different things but a very similar thing ~ justification, purification, sanctification ~ for that thing. To put it very succinctly, it can be corporate in nature or it can be individual nature, depending on the... object, or the baptizee. In the case of Acts 1:5, it is corporate ~ as I said, for the purpose of inaugurating the New Covenant church, what in the Apostles' Creed is called the one holy, catholic, apostolic church ~ not the individual salvific baptism applied by the Holy Spirit to each new Christian when born again through faith and, by grace, saved.

Ugh. I completely disagree.

Right, I know. Fair enough, as I said. We agree to disagree. I say, as unintentional as it may be, you are taking Jesus's words in Acts 1:5 out of context. You will say the same of me. Fine; fair enough.

There are not multiple baptisms of the Holy Spirit.

For individuals, right. Paul says this in Ephesians 4:5... "one Lord, one faith, one baptism...."

I did not say that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

I didn't say you did...

...so it's not something required in order to receive the Holy Spirit and be saved.

Right; agree.

PinSeeker: "...discombobulated statement..."

...it's a very straightforward statement that a young child can understand.

It's something somebody might state, but no, it's a conflation, really; thus the... discombobulated-ness... of it. I mean, yeah, you'll take offense at that, but that is not meant, it just is what it is.

At the very least they are simultaneous events and occur after repentance and faith.

No, we are led to repentance by the Spirit, as Paul says in Romans 2:4... "God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance" ...and He does not give this kindness, this particular grace, to those who are not "called according to His purpose" (Romans 8:28), but only to His elect (Romans 9), those who "love Him because He first loved them" (1 John 4:19). The others God "gives them up to dishonorable passions... since they do not see fit to acknowledge God, God gives them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done" (Romans 1)... "endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory⁠ ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (Romans 9).

As verses like Acts 2:38 indicate.

They do not. We disagree. Our works, including repentance ~ but not faith; faith is not a work, but the vehicle through which we are saved; "by (God's) grace (we) have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2); yet again, faith is God's assurance given to us, and conviction by the Spirit, Who is the One Who convicts, as Jesus says in John 16:7-8 ("I will send (the Helper, the Holy Spirit) to you... when He comes, He will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment") ~ are the product, the natural, free outpouring of our praise of God once He has done His justifying and regenerating work in our hearts and given us this new spirit, even the Holy Spirit Himself, within us.

Peter said that they needed to repent and then after that people would receive the Holy Spirit.

He did, but not "after that." He said they would, but he did not say "after that." Peter does not in Acts 2:38 contradict what He says in 1 Peter 1:3-5... "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above (2 of 2)...

Receiving the Holy Spirit involves the baptism and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Now this is absolutely true. Not just "involves"... <chuckles> No one anywhere in the Bible ~ Moses, or Ezekiel, or Paul, or Peter... or Jesus... ~ ever indicates in any way that this happens as a result of repentance and/or belief and/or faith. Whenever this is mentioned anywhere in the Bible, the only... Person... credited for causing this to happen for anyone is God Himself. These have been cited many times, but again:

• Ezekiel 11, 36: "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh... I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
• Ephesians 1-2: "...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth in Him. In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory... God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
• 1 Peter 1: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Indeed, all blessing and honor and glory and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen. (Revelation 7).

You have been clear in how you interpret John 6, 8 and 10, but I believe you interpret those in a way that contradicts many other scriptures.

And I you. Fair enough. Take a look at John 8:42-47... "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of My own accord, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

If He was telling them in John 10:26, as you think is the case, that they could not believe because they were not His sheep...

I did not say "could not," but that they did not, because they were not His sheep, which is EXACTLY what He said. But you know, since you put "could not" in there, remember what this same Jesus said to His disciples (and thus us by extension):

• "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26).
• "And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'" (Mark 10:26-27 ).
• "Those who heard it said, 'Then who can be saved?' But he said, 'What is impossible with man is possible with God.'" (Luke 18:26-27)

...contradicts your understanding of John 10:26. And, as I pointed out, it also contradicts what Paul indicated about them in Romans 11.

Grace and peace to you.