What is the purpose of Grace?

[Wrangler]

What I am denigrating are beliefs and religious opinions based on speculative hubris.

The denigrating from a place of hubris @Lizbeth has been coming from lately is disappointing.

Of course you are not talking about true faith but denigrating speculative hubris! It’s obvious to me. Early on when the internet became a thing, I was criticized as you were here and a frequent tactic was to presume I was in error BECAUSE I didn’t provide a comprehensive analysis. I never had such an intention and an Internet forum is not the place for it.

This thread is about the purpose of Grace and I believe as you seem to that it needs to be understood in juxtaposition to justice. @Lizbeth’s post seems to deny this or she wouldn’t have:

1. taken issue with the point
2. Resorted to personal attack.

She couldn’t humbly ask where faith comes in w.r.t. what you wrote; just attack you for not understanding faith. Sad to see. Not too much grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

What I am denigrating are beliefs and religious opinions based on speculative hubris. What I'm saying about that it that this is sowing to the flesh. Only corruption can result.

So as you say...you don't know what faith is.


God calls things into existence that didn't exist...or else He sees things that others don't see. But He NEVER sees things to be opposite of what they are. You are doing that. And not surprisingly, you are not God. But you think you know how God thinks. And you are just wrong about that.

And this idea that you already have something you don't have. Well, the foolishness of that cannot be overstated. I say, see where that leads you.

You are reading the bible through a religiously puffed up ego. And only ego-driven religionists will think what you are saying is anything but corrupt.


You are misreading the text again. Evidence means there is proof. Look up the word evidence in the dictionary. You would have faith to be based on naming and claiming. As in...I don't believe in the gun that just went off in my hand (Lyric from Bono).

Or else...whatever I do bad is me...but God can't see that...because anything I do that's good is Jesus. Meanwhile everything is corrupted.


Well, this is obvious that you won't understand faith in a corrupted and self-seeking endeavour. God hides the truth from such.

And if you did then you would be able to grasp basic things like honesty. But you haven't so you can't.

FAITH ITSELF IS the EVIDENCE, of THINGS NOT SEEN. FAITH ITSELF IS the SUBSTANCE, of things HOPED for. (And who has what he yet hopes for?) But I understand how it is impossible for a deaf man to hear this, unless he first receives ears to hear..

Honesty involves allowing the Lord to shine His light and show us where we still fall short, so that we will seek Him for what we yet lack.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I recommend No More Christian Nice Guy, where kindly telling the truth in power and love is subordinated to being nice, which weakly strives to not offend anybody.

The narrow road Jesus spoke about; the devil has us coming and going - being insensitive OR overly sensitive. Avoiding hurting people’s feelings is NOT the highest good.

Amen brother. Cursed is he that keeps back his sword from blood. God is a warrior. As such He protects the innocent and defends the oppressed. God loves the righteous and all righteousness. He loves the truth. He IS truth. He is love.

 

[Wrangler]

Very true. Our own 3rd wave in the churches is...cannot define what a saint is. As in...it's whatever you think it means. Religious hubris.

It's clear from scripture that saints are all who have received Christ and are saved by faith..

While I agree with you @Lizbeth, can you acknowledge @Episkopos’ point that different denominations hold different ideas of what saint means?

Two things can be true at the same time: an authoritative reference says one thing; people dispute it. Most words have different senses and I believe those of us who believe in Christ have to find a way to not passionately hate each other for having a different point of view. If we can’t get along with each other GRACEFULLY, we will not bring glory to God or bring people to Christ for our love for one another is not how the world knows we are his in such circumstances.

 

[Lizbeth]

The denigrating from a place of hubris @Lizbeth has been coming from lately is disappointing.

Of course you are not talking about true faith but denigrating speculative hubris! It’s obvious to me. Early on when the internet became a thing, I was criticized as you were here and a frequent tactic was to presume I was in error BECAUSE I didn’t provide a comprehensive analysis. I never had such an intention and an Internet forum is not the place for it.

This thread is about the purpose of Grace and I believe as you seem to that it needs to be understood in juxtaposition to justice. @Lizbeth’s post seems to deny this or she wouldn’t have:

1. taken issue with the point
2. Resorted to personal attack.

She couldn’t humbly ask where faith comes in w.r.t. what you wrote; just attack you for not understanding faith. Sad to see. Not too much grace.

I thought you just said no more Christian Nice Guy and here you are personally attacking me for calling a spade a spade, lol.

And just to let you know, God's justice was satisfied at the cross for all who would receive Christ, which is why the believer is not under condemnation.

 

[Wrangler]

Cursed is he that keeps back his sword from blood. God is a warrior. As such He protects the innocent and defends the oppressed. God loves the righteous and all righteousness.

Agreed! Sadly, there are several threads that reveal several members have devoted their life in opposition to this sentiment, believing God to be the ultimate pacifist.

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen brother. Cursed is he that keeps back his sword from blood. God is a warrior. As such He protects the innocent and defends the oppressed. God loves the righteous and all righteousness. He loves the truth. He IS truth. He is love.

Oh you have a soul-mate in Wrangler, he doesn't mind shedding blood........he thinks it would be just fine if America were to invade and annex Canada.

 

[Episkopos]

FAITH ITSELF IS the EVIDENCE, of THINGS NOT SEEN. FAITH ITSELF IS the EVIDENCE, of things HOPED for.

That's not possible..and its silly . For your scheme to work...any LIE that is believed must then be true. You are saying that the evidence of its truth is that it has been believed. You will need a LOT more logic brainpower than you are applying to your bible phantasms.

The EVIDENCE of a real faith is TRANSLATION into the unseen world of the kingdom FOR REAL. The substance is in the eternal reality...not the mind of the pretender. The substance is a full victory over sin through an intimate walk with the Lord in His power and love.

(And who has what he yet hopes for?) But I understand how it is impossible for a deaf man to hear this, unless he first receives ears to hear..

Jesus did real miracles. He didn't say....now go you blind man and ACT as if you can see. Pretend you see because I healed you. I gave you something ....sight...but without being able to see.

I have to ask you....do you raise the dead this way? Do you go to the morgue and pray for the dead then claim they are raised ...but just not visibly so in reality yet???

How more confused can a person be!? Your overwhelming desire to be the subject you read about in the bible is indeed fulfilled. By being poor naked wretched and blind you prove Jesus' point. You are claiming to have something you don't have. You are a perfect lesson on how to be a Laodicean.

Honesty involves allowing the Lord to shine His light and show us where we still fall short, so that we will seek Him for what we yet lack.

The irony....

 

[Episkopos]

While I agree with you @Lizbeth, can you acknowledge @Episkopos’ point that different denominations hold different ideas of what saint means?

Yes. I agree that people's experiences and understandings will vary. What I offer is a comprehensive framework for understanding the whole bible....encompassing God's ways (plural) as well as God's way in Christ in particular. People will reject what I say without looking with any depth of understanding because, 1. it is way too far for them or else 2. they just don't want it to be true.

All someone has to say to me is....I'm having a hard time believing that you could be right...and I would be perfectly supportive of them. But instead I get accusations that I'm spreading lies (even as I cite bible verses in a totally logical way)...that I'm a false teacher (OK maybe not so erudite but false? No way.

The framework I teach is from God. Any who look at it with any depth will come away greatly edified.

Someone once said...it's not that Christianity doesn't work...it's just that it hasn't yet been tried. I use that same motto for my channel about spiritual Christianity. People love a dogmatic belief and eschew an ACTUAL elevation into a resurrection life in the kingdom.
I appreciate that you are a real seeker here....and a faithful brother. The bible teaches that there are 4 eternal destinies. The devil has convinced people that there are only 2...thus he rules over the churches in this way. He deceives the whole world and almost all the church.

I have a new podcast coming out called...the Book of Remembrance. I hope you will watch it and look into the provision that God has for faithful brethren who are not saints.

Peace <><

 

[Wrangler]

here you are personally attacking me for calling a spade a spade

Frankly, you are better than this post which shows no capacity for discerning nuance. I did not attack your person, only the foolish idea you were advancing.

Oh you have a soul-mate in Wrangler

Is that supposed to be a homosexual implication? Perhaps you are ignorant of the threads where @Episkopos and I disputed each other rather passionately?

FAITH ITSELF IS the EVIDENCE, of THINGS NOT SEEN. FAITH ITSELF IS the EVIDENCE, of things HOPED for.

Did you fall off the Lindsay Clancy crazy bandwagon? As @Episkopos pointed out, your definition allows an asserted lie to be taken as evidence. You show again lacking the capacity of discernment. Evidence does not depend on faith. Yet, faith may involve evidence.

Converse. While all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. Study this well.

How more confused can a person be. Your overwhelming desire to be a subject you read about in the bible is indeed fulfilled. By being poor naked wretched and blind you prove Jesus' point. You are claiming to have something you don't have. You are a perfect lesson in how to be a Laodicean.

It’s said to see our sister in Christ so far from the narrow path.

 

[Episkopos]

It's clear from scripture that saints are all who have received Christ and are saved by faith..

You have believed a lie. Why do you think the devil leaves the modern churches alone? It's because he has already walked all over its ground and claimed it for himself. It's the devil's victory when the church lowers its standard to make all sinners into saints...while they still sin.

The whole idea that there is only a heaven and hell ...2 destinies...is foolish and fully unbiblical. Heaven is NOT an eternal destiny...it is only for now....and hell is cast into the lake of fire (which IS an eternal destiny). So the devil laughs at the credulity of the unlearned and unstable (dishonest) souls.

The bible testifies to 4 eternal destinies. That is the truth. When people realize that there are 2 cuts....(as I've repeatedly stated from the bible)...with 4 possible outcomes....they learn the fear of the Lord and depart from the iniquity that is INGRAINED in the lie.

So the devil steals away the truth through a willful acceptance of a doctrine that is NOT in the bible. It is WILLFUL sin.

Of course it begins through a simple ignorance. Being unlearned however doesn't have to mean we have to be dishonest as well. But only real truth seekers and actual disciples of Christ will look deeper than the status quo. People don't realize how hard it was to accept that Jesus is God. Now, it's just a religious posture. But in Jesus' time a man would have to call into question everything he had been taught.

And any follower of Christ must remain open for a whole paradigm shift away from the firmly held yet mistaken beliefs in order to progress INTO the kingdom life of the Spirit. So the devil keeps the church powerless...and following the world in a total defeat and submission to him. Just look at the world.....now look at the state of the church. A tree is known of its fruit...even today.

And beyond that, the "no condemnation" idea is only for those who enter INTO Christ. Who walk in the power of a resurrection life. Christ's life. His power. His victory. Otherwise the namers and claimers will be cast away.

 

[Episkopos]

Frankly, you are better than this post which shows no capacity for discerning nuance. I did not attack your person, only the foolish idea you were advancing.



Is that supposed to be a homosexual implication? Perhaps you are ignorant of the threads where @Episkopos and I disputed each other rather passionately?



Did you fall off the Lindsay Clancy crazy bandwagon? As @Episkopos pointed out, your definition allows an asserted lie to be taken as evidence. You show again lacking the capacity of discernment. Evidence does not depend on faith. Yet, faith may involve evidence.

Converse. While all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. Study this well.



It’s said to see our sister in Christ so far from the narrow path.

I don't think that anything Lizbeth says can be taken seriously. Whatever is convenient to say, she will say, without any fear of the Lord. The fact that you might agree with me at all, is a sleight to the spirit that animates her.

I just rebuke her for her silliness and openness to whatever "download" from somewhere (some spirit) she is parroting.

 

[Episkopos]

What I see as the benefit of a forum such as this is the free expression of ideas that can be discussed and/or challenged so that hopefully the best life-giving ideas peculate to the top. Of course there will be the anti-free speech people who want to ban anything that doesn't already line up with their preferred ideology.

Beyond the narrow scope of a limited subject on any one thread we need to understand the subject matter in the greater context. As in....what is this person really saying...and how does it line up to the whole truth? What does the bigger picture look like?

What most people don't consider is that the church has failed its mission in the modern context. What they are unwilling to consider is the false doctrines that have led to that failure. The inability to hear any alternative to the accepted narrative, is a reflection of the Pharisees' difficulty in hearing the need for repentance from the prophets that God sent to them. John the Baptist comes to mind.

To be sure the modern church is a non-"prophet" organization.

The hardest pill to swallow on this forum is the lack of honesty among those who scream the loudest that their narrative is being spoiled. Of course it will be spoiled if the truth is given some measure of freedom of expression.

Let God be right and all men be liars.

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. Unfortunately believing that people can be saved by their own righteousness is the thin edge of the wedge of becoming friends with the world...being unequally yoked with unbelievers.

Verily verily i do type unto thee not only is it that but it is TOTAL DENIAL TO GOD and TO HIS SON . And that
is no place any gonna have wanted to have been ON JESUS DAY . IT is all out blasphemy and all out rebellion
and a total mockery to GOD and HIS CHRIST is all that is . Not gonna bode well , AT ALL for those who do so on JESUS DAY .

 

[ProDeo]

Frankly, you are better than this post which shows no capacity for discerning nuance. I did not attack your person, only the foolish idea you were advancing.



Is that supposed to be a homosexual implication? Perhaps you are ignorant of the threads where @Episkopos and I disputed each other rather passionately?



Did you fall off the Lindsay Clancy crazy bandwagon? As @Episkopos pointed out, your definition allows an asserted lie to be taken as evidence. You show again lacking the capacity of discernment. Evidence does not depend on faith. Yet, faith may involve evidence.

Converse. While all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. Study this well.



It’s said to see our sister in Christ so far from the narrow path.

Et tu Brute ?

 

[amigo de christo]

Et tu Brute ?

Circum et circum . But when are folks gonna realize
that many are now in love with a harlot .
siempre prope ......................... so close but so far away .
Vir
DEO
man must choose and choose wisely my friend . for man is not GOD .
Agricolam . what did the wise farmer do . he f ound the great treasure in a field
and hid it and then went and BOUGHT that field .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Circum et circum . But when are folks gonna realize
that many are now in love with a harlot .
siempre prope ......................... so close but so far away .
Vir
DEO
man must choose and choose wisely my friend . for man is not GOD .
Agricolam . what did the wise farmer do . he f ound the great treasure in a field
and hid it and then went and BOUGHT that field .

@amigo de christo

 

[Episkopos]

Et tu Brute ?

Heh...just giving to Ceasar what is his due.

 

[ProDeo]

Work info: Normal Christian Life - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

The normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee

It's good, detailed and free.

For those who seek a deeper life in Christ.

Surrounding theme - Romans 6,7 and 8.

 

[Hepzibah]

Work info: Normal Christian Life - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

The normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee

It's good, detailed and free.

For those who seek a deeper life in Christ.

Surrounding theme - Romans 6,7 and 8.

I was handed that book, 26 years ago, by a lovely spiritual minded Christian lady, who sadly died that year from breast cancer.

I had shared with her my struggles, in the 17 years since I had become a believer. Some of it I now know was because I was undiagnosed neurodivergent, with concentration problems, and although I tried my best, I just felt such a failure as a Christian, and had a heavy burden on my back just as in Pilgrims Progress.

It just felt it too much to try to remember the rules from the Bible and obey them, reading the Bible and praying as much as I thought I should and falling on my face so often when thinking of the future and trusting God, being married to an alcoholic.

I had been a Calvinist for quite a bit of that time, and in church I felt I could not fit as they seemed to take it all in their stride.

I could not find anyone who could speak to my condition until I met Watchman Nee and he perfectly described me as NOT living a normal Christian life, but them he told me how to do it.

He said that rather than me struggling I should just believe that Christ had gained sanctification for me on the cross. It was already done and I was only required to believe that and surrender myself to Him.

There was a flash and I knew it was the truth and that it was the answer. I was immediately transported to a place full of light and for three days I was on the mountain top full of joyful peace.

It was like landing on another planet and even colours looked different. For three days I could think of nothing else and had to ask the Lord to stop as I felt my poor little heart could not take it.

The intensity reduced but it was still a heavenly place. I knew that he Lord had given me the pure heart I had longed for and I knew that I was at last walking in utter obedience to Him without effort.

The Bible seals opened up, and I was taught direcly by Him for that three days, and learned much more than the previous 17 years.

I was able to remain in that state for many months but fell from it because I had grown so used to it and began to lean on my own understanding over something.

I have hst downloaded Nees' book so might come back to say more but I recommend it if anyone is seeking.