What is the purpose of Grace?
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
@Wrangler
Zec. 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God."
Ps 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times."
Not that I want to get involved in your discussion...but I found these verses as I was reading this morning. Hope this sheds some light on your discussion.
Christ in us is a landmine...?? Yikes, I suppose only if anyone uses these wonderful gracious truths as a license/cloak for sin. Everything tests us.
Luk 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The Jews/Israel had been expecting an earthly kingdom with an earthly king (and they still are sadly, as are many Christians)..........Jesus was CORRECTING their wrong understanding. He was saying that His/God's kingdom is a spiritual kingdom that is within, not an external earthly kingdom that can be seen with natural eyes. His kingdom is within us because HE is within the believer, ruling & reigning from the throne of our hearts, in the new man.....Christ in us, and in the midst of us, is the spiritual King of a spiritual/heavenly kingdom.
Agree.
A carnal thinking person will only grasp one side of the coin or the other at any time.......not both at the same time. The kingdom (Christ) is within the believer, but we need to still manifest it.....it needs to be revealed in us. Like Lazarus when Jesus raised him from the dead had LIFE in him, but still needed to have his grave clothes removed. And like we have already had the bath and are every whit clean, yet still require the Lord to wash our feet lest we have no part with Him - can you not see how that is the same kind of seeming contradiction?
I agree it is by an internal seeking so to speak. But I don't understand what you are saying about access as opposed to opportunity...I probably would have thought the other way around from what you are saying. But yes it is through much tribulation that we are entering the kingdom. Jesus was perfected through suffering....we undergo the same process as He, except we don't necessarily have to wait to die physically....it is our old man/psuche that needs to die (even though it has already been crucified with Christ).
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Yes, I regard it to be both meanings at the same time. Jesus was making the point that His kingdom and Kingship was not carnal/earthly like Israel was wrongly expecting, but spiritual........within the believer as well as in the midst of His church. He was correcting their wrong understanding.
And that truth does not change.....His kingdom is never going to come with observation that we may say lo here it is or there, like many are still wrongly expecting.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
and yet this peace of interfaith and its interreligious dialogue
has sold a lie to christendom and the false religions saying we all serve the same God
and that even the false religions shall have peace with GOD even though they serve other religions and gods .
Someone is surely lying to this inclusive generation . and there will be no peace , no safety
for them on JESUS day .
The righteous and meek of the earth will be HIDDEN on the day of the Lord's wrath. God loves the meek and righteous. I am going to quote something from the only bible the early church had...the Old Testament. And you will not understand it.
Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger. Zeph 2:3
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
which have WROUGHT HIS JUDGMENT , Seek RIGHTEOUSNESS .
hey epi , HOW righteous is it to call GOD A LIAR . exactly .
And all who fail to recieve the one true gospel of JESUS THE ChRIST
and reject THE TESTIMONY that GOD gave of the SON , THEY DO CALL GOD A LIAR epi .
NOW IF YOU THINK that is seeking judgment and righteousoness , THEN YOU got a major massive problem .
SEEK the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD . but many have not submitted to HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS epi .
FOR they reject HIS CHRIST . Some amongst us are selling a false righteousness .
One by which even the jews who beleived NOT on JESUS had them cast out of their own tree .
@Wrangler
@bdavidc
P.S. (regarding gold being tried)
1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
Rev. 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."
I told you that you would not understand the verse I posted. And you don't. You have to filter everything through that massive brain of yours so that it comes out as a pithy slogan that any Pharisee would agree with. The narrow road is NOT your brain.
Meekness and righteousness are qualities that are found in the world...regardless of religious ideology. The same goes for people who are poor or lame. Does God only care about the fatherless Christians? Of course not. God is God of all flesh. For God so loved the WORLD...not just the church and definitely not those who include themselves into God's exclusive people through their own self-interest.
A lot of people that claim to be God's people today and include themselves in God's exclusive people, will be serving those who they look down on today from other religious bents in eternity.
God's people don't look down on others to condemn them to hell. Only Pharisees and hypocrites do that. That's why you can't understand the bible.
Let's explore how you in fact call Jesus a liar...then accuse me of doing what you are doing.
When a young man asked Jesus...what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus answered obey the commandments. When asked which ones...Jesus responded by stating the righteousness commandments, leaving out the holiness ones (1st tablet).
So when someone asks you what must be done to inherit eternal life do you quote Jesus? Never. You would never listen to Jesus. You would contradict Him and call all who quote Him as being a liar. That's how depraved your religious aspirations have become.
So you are not on Jesus' side. You are on the side of the Pharisees and self-seekers. You are not following Christ, but merely claiming Him as YOUR sacrifice for sins. How can you not be rejected....????
What does Paul say about those who abuse the words of Jesus???
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 1 Tim 6:3
This verse perfectly describes what you do here.
But we have the choice of going on to perfection, which they did not have since they were booted out.
As before.
Suffering is the way to perfection.
God can reach us where ever we are born, to atheist parents, or whatever. If we listen to the Holy Spirit He will lead us on the right path.
There is no need to fight sin if the Holy Spirit is within us. Christ said His burden is light.
It was necessary for the fall to happen in order that we could be raised up with Christ. He did not want robots.
You are fully exposed and yet you cover yourself in a blanket of darkness thinking that certain words can cover you up.
But the reason why you jumped on the "kingdom is within you" and fully ignored to "seek first the kingdom" is because you HATE the whole idea of having to seek God. You hate it so much....you claim to already be rich and in need of nothing. That Christ is already found in you, and all grace and the kingdom to boot. It's all already in you....or so you think in your religious hubris. I have tried getting the most basic things across to you...but you resist the truth as if it was the plague.
And you won't seek the Lord. You are self-satisfied. Every excuse you give to avoid the real God.
We are counseled to go to the throne of grace. Where is that throne of grace found? Is it somewhere in you that you just need to consult yourself?
Who's the we?? Unbelievers? What you should say is that YOU never had a choice...because you were never in God's presence.
Anyone who is translated to abide in Christ...to be where He is in the kingdom realm....remains in His presence until he is tempted away from putting God first. It is sin that separates us...and at that level...the soul that sins it shall die...or be separated from the intimacy of God which is in holiness.
But only the called out ones would know this. Only they have choice in the matter. All others only have the choice to humble themselves and obey the words of Jesus.
Many thanks for that. Indeed it is very interesting. I got one third of the way through but need a rest lol
I found many errors and a lack of understanding the Orthodox mindset..
First of all, the writer says that Aquinas and the Council of Trent follow the teachings of the ECF's and are heirs to the teaching of the Fathers. No they don't on one hugely important issue: the early church taught strictly that they hold to the faith that was handed down to them. (Jude 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15), which calls believers to protect and cling to the original message of the Gospel. [1, 2]. The RCC follows progressive theology.
He claims that Pelagiuis tried to distort the original faith of the church. No he did not and the writer is doing what nearly all academics do and read secondary sources and not Pelagius himself. I have read him and he does not claim we do not need grace.
Pelagius confronted Augustine as he had moved far from the early teachings.
I have not yet had the opportunity to read the Orthodox translations of the verses quoted from Iraneus but will do so and read the rest of the article later. If I recall rightly his writings are said to be corrupted so that needs checking.
We do not need to be born sinners to be in Adam. We join his race when we sin. Personal responsibility: Bible verses, such as Ezekiel 18:20, clarify that children do not carry the actual guilt or eternal punishment for their parents' sins. Each person answers only for their own actions
Born in sinfulness is used a lot but it can easily mean the sinfulness of his mother.
Origen was never considered a church Doctor and was never given much credit amongst many.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
And how can one be keeping the greatest commandment of all , WHICH IS to lov e the LORD thy GOD with all thy heart ,
IF they reject the testimony that GOD gave of the SON . THEY DONT EPI , they call GOD a liar .
You the one trying to twist the scrips to cliam a lie . A lie of unbeleif .
As for me i shall USE the TRUTH to POINT TO THE DIRE NEED OF THE TRUTH , who IS JESUS THE CHRIST .
Might wanna read acts again epi and see WHO they preached to all and even gave dire dire warnings
unto those who failed to BELIEVE ON JESUS the CHRIST .
When men asked them what must I DO to be s aved teh answer was always YE MUST BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
THAT is who they preached EPI and that is what THEY PREACHED epi .
They did not go around trying to plant doubts about unbelief , THEY preached the dire need TO BELEIVE on HIM epi .
Something this all inclusiv e generation sure DOES NOT DO and rather gives the idea
about how folks are gonna be just fine no matter if they beleived or NOT . You bring a false hope epi
and a false go spell of inclusivity . Which means YOU DO NOT the WORK nor working OF THE SPIRIT epi .
You and others try and make it seem as if FAITH IN HE WHOM GOD DID SEND
was not necessary at all . You can try and twist thinsg epi . BUT DO remember I KNOW Exactly WHAT INCLUISIVITY teaches .
And what it omits . And it be of that which is of anti christ , but being claoked as t hough its lov e and loving
and even cliamed as though it be of GOD . WHEN IT AINT epi .
Yes...as in He will grant some to be hid in the Cleft of the Rock. The Rock that was cleft/split that we may find refuge/hide in His side, His flesh torn, the veil torn in twain. There is no salvation/rescue in any other way.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
For sure and for certain one must CONTINUE in CHRIST .
And for sure and for c ertain paul warned himself about the dangers of sin and how it can Lead one to destruction .
THEY all warned about the NEED to continue epi .
However THESE MEN who preached and reminded THE CHURCH of the dire need to CONTINUE IN HIM
to the end , THEY HAD PREACHED TO ALL OF THE DIRE NEED TO HAVE HAD TO BELIEVE ON HIM .
SOMETHING you aint bEEN DOING at all epi . You make VOID things YOU should NEVER have done .
IN fact its you who has left off . I KNOW what inclusivity teaches epi . AND ITS NOT THE ONE TRUE GOPSEL at all .
SO it looks like YOU AINT CONTINUED IN THE FAITH AT ALL but have been moved away
Into the lie of incliusivity . SO while it was good you warned that man about remaining IN HIS PRESENCE
Just know that any who preaches another gospel , YEAH THEY AINT .
I told you for years you need to PUT JESUS FIRST and the reminders of the aboslute dire need to have TO BELIEVE ON HIM
and THEN remind all of all things HE did teach . buT YOU epi DO NOT DO THIS
because you BELIEVE IN INCLUSIVIMS . NOT THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL by CHRIST JESUS that actually DOES save .
We cannot preach both belief and unbelief . if one does it was always unbeleif they beleived .
And thus we cannot use JESUS own words in order to try and deny HIS OWN WORDS of how
one is saved . YOU constantly have called the gospel of ye must believe as RELIGIOUS DOGMA .
And that epi is and will be , IF YOU REPENT NOT , your own destruction .
I am not going to belabor the point because I agree Christ indwells the heart of those that have faith in him. I just don't think he was saying to the Pharisees that they had the kingdom within them. We know from various other discourses what Jesus said was actually in them.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
i noticed something epi . something just came so clear to me .
You often do ignore me .
AND the one post i made that exposed this anti christ lie
YOU ALL OF A SUDDEN came to make it seem as if i was dead wrong .
HEY EVERONE , I TOLD YOU ALL I KNOW what inclusivity teaches. EPI beleives it as does a child .
THE GOSPEL IS BEING DENIED and that which is of anti christ is being accepted by this inclusivity .
One post i showed exposing this one world religoin inclusivity
AND YOU come on to quickly make it seem as if I was WRONG and even accusing CHRIST .
WOW epi . but then NOT WOW . cause i alerady KNEW YOU BELIEVED THAT because you are
an admitted inclusvian and i know what IT Teaches epi . You gonna , as others do , be able to fool many
as others do . BUT NOT ME and the sheep you wont . WE cling to CHRIST and not to men and their inclusivity
and its false broad path of unbelief .
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